Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[Ian Hargrave]

13 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

I went on a shed bash in 1963 and a couple of visits to Bristol, just to see Midland stuff. I have a really carp pic somewhere of two of their Jubs on a D,H Train for the North. Might have been a Summer Devonian?

Barrow Road was amazing , but I got chucked out before I made the Roundhouse as I did not know of the Gasworks end 'entrance'. St P's Marsh was huge and I didn't dare try entering Bath Road due to the 'reputation' it had. 

There is a P4 Model of it on here somewhere (Blog); it's absolutely superb modelling.

Happy days yet again.

 By the summer of 1961 on The Northbound Devonian was an 82A ( new diesel depot ) Sulzer Type 4 from an allocation of D32 -D41 .Southbound Devonian was one from a Holbeck allocation ,returning north on the 7:25 pm Bristol-Newcastle mail. But dieselisation also saw the appearance of unusual steam working over those years,such as Scots,Rebuilt Patriots and B1’s. The d/h Jubilee you saw was probably a relief/extra.There was also the factor of poor reliability of the rush of new diesel deliveries. The winter of 62/63  ( and we are currently  having our usual whinge about cold weather HAH ! )  saw the provision of a steam loco to provide steam heat coupled inside the Type 4 ( er,Class 45 to the uninitiated)  on occasion. Barrow Road was easily observed from the bridge btw. Sorry,I’m off topic 

[Phil Bullock]

IIRC the Caprotti 5s were considered very free running but not quite as strong when the chips were down so we’re allowed one coach less on challenging workings.

 

@Stationmaster Mike … that crank and rod are a drive for the mechanical lubricator above the footplate as mentioned up the thread 

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

IIRC the Caprotti 5s were considered very free running but not quite as strong when the chips were down so we’re allowed one coach less on challenging workings.

 

@Stationmaster Mike … that crank and rod are a drive for the mechanical lubricator above the footplate as mentioned up the thread 

Thanks Phil. Yes, that' sounds like wot I heard/read. I think it was on that route from Leeds to York so not much climbing there, except up past Neville Hill?

Phil

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 By the summer of 1961 on The Northbound Devonian was an 82A ( new diesel depot ) Sulzer Type 4 from an allocation of D32 -D41 .Southbound Devonian was one from a Holbeck allocation ,returning north on the 7:25 pm Bristol-Newcastle mail. But dieselisation also saw the appearance of unusual steam working over those years,such as Scots,Rebuilt Patriots and B1’s. The d/h Jubilee you saw was probably a relief/extra.There was also the factor of poor reliability of the rush of new diesel deliveries. The winter of 62/63  ( and we are currently  having our usual whinge about cold weather HAH ! )  saw the provision of a steam loco to provide steam heat coupled inside the Type 4 ( er,Class 45 to the uninitiated)  on occasion. Barrow Road was easily observed from the bridge btw. Sorry,I’m off topic 

Thanks Ian. I don't remember seeing much in the way of Diesels that August 63. However I might have been ignoring them!

I too apologise for being O.T, but quite a lot of folk like to know what these things used to do or not do and it keeps me sane in this bloomin gloomy Season.

Phil

[No Decorum]

On 02/12/2023 at 18:33, The Stationmaster said:

There were two ver different looking Caprotti vavegear versions of the Black 5.  fortunately Hornby are doing te one that looks like a Stanier Black 5 and not the one that looked like a strange mixture of Italian and British bits and pieces and was about as good looking as a dustbin on wheels.

 

What we need to see from Hormnby is a picture of the right and side of the Cparotti version as the left hand side is simply a coupling rod and a connecting rod to the crosshead and piston etc assembly.  The Caprotti drive was on the other side and will be the more difficult bit to get right.  I'd quite loke one actually - provided  it delivers the goods but what I'd like above all is one with outside Stephenson valvegear - that really would be fun.

Outside Stephenson? Yes, that would be agreeable. Two outside eccentrics. Somehow, I don’t think we’ll get one, at least not for some time. Hornby has been in the habit of not providing a return crank at all for Caprotti gear and using a not very charming plastic moulding for the drive. KR rather gave up on the idea two working eccentrics on Bellerophon as well. Sorry to mention that, I don’t really mean to set people’s safety valves blowing.

[No Decorum]

11 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

IIRC the Caprotti 5s were considered very free running but not quite as strong when the chips were down so we’re allowed one coach less on challenging workings.

 

@Stationmaster Mike … that crank and rod are a drive for the mechanical lubricator above the footplate as mentioned up the thread 

I’d agree with that assessment of the Caprottis. They had a very sharp blast and drivers who were used to driving to the sound from chimneys would ease back on the regulator so that not enough air was drawn into the fire. As the fire cooled, they eased back more to help the fireman which was the opposite of what was needed. (Terry Essery.)

[pH]

14 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

.. 45274 wrecked in the fatal Sutton Coldfield accident ( but subsequently repaired and latterly modelled by Hornby ) …

 

A further off-topic diversion … 

 

Interesting that Hornby modelled that one. They have also modelled 45458, which was the engine in the fatal Wormit derailment in 1955. Given the number of “bog standard” engines in the class, I wonder why those two have been chosen.

[Mallard60022]

Last Steam Loco I was hauled by with Steam, on 'genuine' BR, was 45101 from Man Vic to Bolton Trinity St. in 1966. Bolton Wanderers (0) v Plymouth Argyle (1).

Classic climb out of Vic too. Can smell it now! I do have a really rubbish pic somewhere.

Back then I had no idea of the detail differences of the 5s. had to get a Hornby Silver Seal one; might still have that somewhere?

P

[Invicta]

9 hours ago, pH said:

A further off-topic diversion … 

 

Interesting that Hornby modelled that one. They have also modelled 45458, which was the engine in the fatal Wormit derailment in 1955. Given the number of “bog standard” engines in the class, I wonder why those two have been chosen.

 

Bearing in mind that both locos were repaired and remained in service after the accidents,  and Hornby have modelled both in late crest livery (so later than the 1955 accidents),  then I suspect it's no more than Hornby's researcher turned up photos of both locos in late crest condition, and no-one thought to look back into their earlier history

[pH]

10 hours ago, Invicta said:

 

Bearing in mind that both locos were repaired and remained in service after the accidents,  and Hornby have modelled both in late crest livery (so later than the 1955 accidents),  then I suspect it's no more than Hornby's researcher turned up photos of both locos in late crest condition, and no-one thought to look back into their earlier history

I see we’ve had a discussion about “why was this particular Black 5 modelled” before:
 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/97313-the-engine-shed/?do=findComment&comment=2697264

 

From a statistical point of view, I still wonder why 45274 and 45458 were selected. If you exclude the 70 “funnies” and the 4 namers from the 842 in the class, that leaves 768 engines. Say 15-20 (?) already modelled, that leaves about 750 to choose from. The majority of those would have been photographed, some many times, especially those that made it beyond, say, 1966.
 

So why choose 2 involved in serious, fatal accidents? Just random chance?

 

(This, of course, has nothing to do with the quality of the current batch of Hornby models.)

[64F]

On 04/12/2023 at 21:33, pH said:

 

So why choose 2 involved in serious, fatal accidents? Just random chance?

 

 

It is undoubtedly random chance. 45458 was an early recipient of an ScR blue smokebox number and being based at Polmadie it probably wandered further south more often than others, which might explain the choice of that particular one.

[pH]

6 hours ago, 64F said:

 

It is undoubtedly random chance. 45458 was an early recipient of an ScR blue smokebox number and being based at Polmadie it probably wandered further south more often than others, which might explain the choice of that particular one.

Still an unusual choice, though. Black 5s were very rare at Polmadie - in January 1959, 45458 was one of only two shedded there. I would be surprised if 45458 made it south of Carlisle very often - most trains changed engines at Carlisle. Other Scottish 5s made it to Carlisle regularly, even from sheds like Perth and St Rollox. And there were other 5s had blue number plates, 45366 for example - I have that plate and there were traces of blue on it under the black. 
 

If you really wanted a Scottish Black 5 to model that could be seen over a large area of Scotland, I would suggest picking a Perth one. At one time that shed had 75 of them allocated, with duties taking them to Inverness, Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh, Carlisle and Glasgow at least.

Edited December 6, 2023 by pH

[64F]

4 hours ago, pH said:

Still an unusual choice, though. Black 5s were very rare at Polmadie - in January 1959, 45458 was one of only two shedded there. I would be surprised if 45458 made it south of Carlisle very often - most trains changed engines at Carlisle. Other Scottish 5s made it to Carlisle regularly, even from sheds like Perth and St Rollox. And there were other 5s had blue number plates, 45366 for example - I have that plate and there were traces of blue on it under the black. 
 

If you really wanted a Scottish Black 5 to model that could be seen over a large area of Scotland, I would suggest picking a Perth one. At one time that shed had 75 of them allocated, with duties taking them to Inverness, Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh, Carlisle and Glasgow at least.

All very true, and 45458 was also an early withdrawal at the end of 1962 and the window between it getting a blue number and getting warning flashes must have been fairly brief - this Flickr image shows it had acquired flashes by summer 1961. It is probably a mistake to assume that there is necessarily any more to the choice of individual loco than the manufacturer having found a clear prototype photo of a particular example with suitable features.

 

(from Flickr)

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 19/10/2023 at 11:04, cctransuk said:

I do NOT believe that potential purchasers would not buy the forthcoming Hornby 'Black Five', just because it lacked working lights.

I'm cancelling my order if it's going into full production with those lights. If the lights are prototype scale and not fixed I will buy.

[MikeParkin65]

11 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I'm cancelling my order if it's going into full production with those lights. If the lights are prototype scale and not fixed I will buy.

The lights are to scale alright - just for the Ellis Clarke model 🤣

[steve45]

Hornby, are you out there, are you reading what is being written here?

 

No one is saying that the oversized working lamps have swung their decision to buy one of these engines, but a lot of people are saying that the lamps have put them off buying it.

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

Another thing that people forget is that the Big Four all had different headlamp styles. In BR days the main ones in use were:-

• LMR body square, handle front to back, painted black at least to 1960 then changed to white although black ones still in use at least to 1963 and perhaps beyond.
• ER body round, handle front ot back, painted white.
• SR body round, handle front ot back, painted white. Handle and top were different shape to ER style. SR also used discs instead of lamps in daylight.
• WR body square, handle side to side, painted white. Just to be awkward they had the lamp iron slot on the side rather than back so it was no use to anyone else so less likely to be nicked. 

 

In service, LMR and ER lamps got thoroughly mixed up and we often saw a loco with one of each through New Street. Also common in the early 1960s was locos with one white and one black case.

Any square lamps on ex-LMS locos pre 1960 should be black.

 

Confused? No surprise that Hornby are.

 

 

 

On 20/10/2023 at 04:10, Covkid said:

I have never seen a red shade used in a marker light, and believe BR modified them with two circuits red and white. 

 

The ony time I saw the shade used was in the days of the Birmingham Pullman. Early on there were cases of signalmen sending 'Train passed without tail lamp'.

[Dunsignalling]

12 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I'm cancelling my order if it's going into full production with those lights. If the lights are prototype scale and not fixed I will buy.

I'll be sticking with my pre-order for the Caprotti one, purely because putting it right (if Hornby don't do so) will be easier, quicker, and (probably) cheaper than building a kit.

 

Few are likely to share my confidence/stupidity in chopping around a new £250 model, though. 😀

 

However replacing my existing "ordinary" 5MTs is no longer on the agenda.... 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Standards_in_OO]

13 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

The lights are to scale alright - just for the Ellis Clarke model 🤣

Perhaps Ellis Clarke should scale down their O Gauge model! I’m interested to see if any further versions of the new Hornby one are announced this coming January or if they will wait for these ones to hit the shelves first. I’m currently undecided if I’ll go through with my pre order of The Glasgow Highlander but an Eric Tracey or The Lancashire Fusilier would swing it for me regardless of the headlamps. 

[Covkid]

16 hours ago, steve45 said:

Hornby, are you out there, are you reading what is being written here?

 

No one is saying that the oversized working lamps have swung their decision to buy one of these engines, but a lot of people are saying that the lamps have put them off buying it.

 

5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I'll be sticking with my pre-order for the Caprotti one, purely because putting it right (if Hornby don't do so) will be easier, quicker, and (probably) cheaper than building a kit.

 

Few are likely to share my confidence/stupidity in chopping around a new £250 model, though. 😀

 

However replacing my existing "ordinary" 5MTs is no longer on the agenda.... 

I think these neatly sum up the situation.  If I wanted a Caprotti black five I would have one of the new Hornby 5MTs.  I don't, so I won't.

 

Regarding the "normal" black fives - well no.  I don't want to pay Hornby a "lamp premium" for a pointless gimmick, and instead will modify my existing pair for the under smokebox anomaly, and will bide my time for Accurascale or Rapido or Dapol.  The work "Ruston" has had to do to make his R&H 88DS look a little less toylike shows that Hornby really have lost the plot with producing accurate and realistic models.  

 

[64F]

I'd pre-ordered the late crest pair on the basis that the prototypes were both allocated to my part of the world, and had been waiting to see what the Caprotti looked like before committing to fork out for a third one at the same time.  Having seen the pictures I'll stick with my pre-orders, but will wait for a future Caprotti release by which time hopefully the lighting may have been reconsidered.  On that basis I am probably a deferred sale rather than a lost one, but if removing the silly Christmas decorations from new and expensive models is anything less than straightforward I'll be annoyed.

[Right Away]

On 03/12/2023 at 10:50, Ian Hargrave said:

Barrow Road  22 A while still a Midland shed had an allocation too.They were used frequently on turns to New Street,Derby and the North.,alongside their conventional Black 5’s such as 45274 wrecked in the fatal Sutton Coldfield accident ( but subsequently repaired and latterly modelled by Hornby ) ….

 

 

…. and finally having its identity changed by …. ME!

 

[Pmorgancym]

I suppose the question to me is this, if Hornby produced the old/current 5 in the Railroad plus range.  Would you buy that or the all singing  /dancing premium model?

[Fair Oak Junction]

I guess until we know exactly how the lamps work and look on the finished product it's hard to answer that.

[Right Away]

The issue of working headlamps on these new “Fives” has raised many interesting and diverse comments from across the membership.

However, at the risk of being “shot down in flames” by those in favour, it could be that locomotives so adorned could well “stick out like sore thumbs” amongst those with scale size lamps or indeed those without. What was behind the inception of Hornby deciding on the necessity of this feature? Better to have scale size, non-working lamps that can provide a finishing touch to what is essentially the “face” of an engine; and they don’t have to work to be effective. 

Hornby are to be congratulated on producing the other variations of the classic Stanier class 5 4-6-0 which will doubtless be welcomed by many with open arms. I fear these latest variants will be their only real selling point given their price. Apologies Hornby, but you have produced many models with incredibly fine detail, but to afflict this latest incarnation with such a toy-like and unnecessary feature might not be to the likes of many.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Right Away