Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[The Stationmaster]

On 28/11/2023 at 17:56, adb968008 said:

Queen came past my house in May 1968, stopped just down the road from my place.

She didnt even come around to say hello either, just opened some industrial unit.

 

But she was hauled by a 24 I believe…

 

Operation Spring Clean, May 1968, she toured Bolton, Bury, Burnley, Blackburn and Thameside… all the glamorous places, but she might definitely have spotted an 8f or a Black 5 around Padiham whilst she was tidying up the north west. Bolton shed was just about alive then too.

 

Stayed an hour, went off elsewhere. BR then closed the station, the factory she opened, later closed. The areas a bit guff now, could do with another spring clean.

 

The last steam hauled royal train was 45562 Alberta in 1967… interestingly no royal train lamps, just express lamps.

 

 

There was definitely royal train mileage going on in the 1960’s

 
but maybe not black 5’s.

As it is nit carrying Royal Train lamps it is not a Royal Train.  A Royal Train conveys the monarch and would be lamped accordingly with all four headlamps, a Special Train would be pamped as an Exptress Passenger Trains - as in the linked video.

 

If a lesser member if the Royal Family is travekling on theh train it will be a Special Train - not a Royal Train .  The formation showss beynd doubt that it isn't a Royal Train - nowhere near enough vehicles for a Royal Train formation.  The thing to remember is that there has long been a difference between a rot yal Train and a Special Train using similar stock carrying the same livery.  Some vehicles were used only in Royal Trains some others were used in both Royal orSpecial Trains while a few tended only to be used in Special Trains.

[MikeParkin65]

3 hours ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

Ignoring the lamps, and looking at it from a more casual point of view, I think they look very nice.

But do they look so much nicer than the last generation Black 5s that I would pay the extra cost? I'm not so sure.

I think I would still look for an older Black 5, or pick one of these up on sale.

Lamps aside for me the chassis of the new model is a lot more substantial and most importantly as far as I could tell they have managed to fill the area between the cylinders so that you can't see daylight between the slide bars when viewing the model at rail level. This is the worst aspect of the 2002 model (although cured by the Brassmaster detailing kit which incorporates the also absent motion bracket with a cleverly designed blocking piece). The new model is an advance on the old version though like the Bachmann 47, because the old model was already good and the new model isnt cheap there isnt the incentive to 'upgrade' and in the case of the Black 5 for some of us the lamps are a positive deterrent. 

[No Decorum]

2 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Lamps aside for me the chassis of the new model is a lot more substantial and most importantly as far as I could tell they have managed to fill the area between the cylinders so that you can't see daylight between the slide bars when viewing the model at rail level. This is the worst aspect of the 2002 model (although cured by the Brassmaster detailing kit which incorporates the also absent motion bracket with a cleverly designed blocking piece). The new model is an advance on the old version though like the Bachmann 47, because the old model was already good and the new model isnt cheap there isnt the incentive to 'upgrade' and in the case of the Black 5 for some of us the lamps are a positive deterrent. 

Over on the thread about the Turbomotive, I have posted on the subject of the lights on that model. They are, in short, a mess and do not give me any confidence in the lights of the Black 5. If the lights on the Black 5 are at all like the lights on the Turbomotive, they will be very unsatisfactory. On the other hand, if they are well done, I wonder that Hornby chose to release the Turbomotive in the state it was. I have three Black 5s from the present tooling: domeless, centre domed and forward domed. I feel no need to replace or supplement them with a new model. The Caprotti might have tempted me but the lamps have deterred me as they have you.

[Mallard60022]

Lamps don't look like Weird Dustbins on this photo? Copy from Hornby, as illustrated.

Phil

[MikeParkin65]

2 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Lamps don't look like Weird Dustbins on this photo? Copy from Hornby, as illustrated.

Phil

I believe this is a computer generated image. Maybe before they realised they couldnt make reliable working and to scale  LMS pattern lamps

[Mallard60022]

29 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I believe this is a computer generated image. Maybe before they realised they couldnt make reliable working and to scale  LMS pattern lamps

Ooooof so we thought the Camera doesn't lie BUT a CGI can?

Thanks. I'd not even seen this anyway before the Spanish (Lamp) Inquisition arrived!

Hey ho.

P

[Ian Hargrave]

Can we please…for a while at any rate….now switch off the lamps and address what’s IMHO the more important issue for this particular model and consider the representation of the valve gear and motion itself. Hornby has done Caprotti previously with 71000 .What of this Black 5 on that score and what are the cognoscenti opinions of what’s seen thus far ?

[Mallard60022]

4 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Can we please…for a while at any rate….now switch off the lamps and address what’s IMHO the more important issue for this particular model and consider the representation of the valve gear and motion itself. Hornby has done Caprotti previously with 71000 .What of this Black 5 on that score and what are the cognoscenti opinions of what’s seen thus far ?

Only thing I can contribute Ian is that the B5 Caprotti had hardly and whizzy bits around the Rods and only a mini sort od Eccentric on the Right side, but plenty of chunky and Gorilla Cylinders and boxy bits. 71XXX had much more complex whizzy bits around the Rods on both side IIRC and wasn't as ugly up front?

All this Technical description guff can be found in my Schoolboy Book of Technical Descriptions of Loco Valve Gear; 1/3d at the Corner Shop.

Personally I think the Hornby Rods are too shiny and look a bit 1950s, princess Elizabeth. However that's easy to deal with too.

Apart from that, if the Hornby promotional sales CGI pic I posted above is anything to go by, then the Comet kit is now dead in the water as it looks good to me (and I built a Comet one years ago and painted it because it was only Black).

Sincerely, Phil

[Mr chapman]

DCC concepts used to make some lovely little lamps in 4mm scale so it's definitely possible. To be honest the revamped merchant navy model was the perfect opportunity to add electric lighting without having to mess about tooling extra lamps. Just a bit of fibre optic.

[Ian Hargrave]

37 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Only thing I can contribute Ian is that the B5 Caprotti had hardly and whizzy bits around the Rods and only a mini sort od Eccentric on the Right side, but plenty of chunky and Gorilla Cylinders and boxy bits. 71XXX had much more complex whizzy bits around the Rods on both side IIRC and wasn't as ugly up front?

All this Technical description guff can be found in my Schoolboy Book of Technical Descriptions of Loco Valve Gear; 1/3d at the Corner Shop.

Personally I think the Hornby Rods are too shiny and look a bit 1950s, princess Elizabeth. However that's easy to deal with too.

Apart from that, if the Hornby promotional sales CGI pic I posted above is anything to go by, then the Comet kit is now dead in the water as it looks good to me (and I built a Comet one years ago and painted it because it was only Black).

Sincerely, Phil

Thanks Phil . The sample illustrated also concerns me re: the rods,which is why I’ve raised the matter, But this ( hopefully) is an EP. So we shall see.

[MichaelM]

Saw one of these at the weekend.  Beautiful looking model.  Think I may treat myself😊

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Can we please…for a while at any rate….now switch off the lamps and address what’s IMHO the more important issue for this particular model and consider the representation of the valve gear and motion itself. Hornby has done Caprotti previously with 71000 .What of this Black 5 on that score and what are the cognoscenti opinions of what’s seen thus far ?

I felt dissapointed when I looked at the valve gear, I was expecting duke of gloucester +++

what I saw was fairly basic, but then the real thing looks all steam pipe and cylinders too.

I think i’d like to see 44767.

 

 

 

 

[Wheatley]

Most of the whizzy spinny Caprotti bits were in between the frames. The last two were built with them on the outside (as per DoG) where the fitters could actually get at them. 

[Phil Bullock]

2 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Most of the whizzy spinny Caprotti bits were in between the frames. The last two were built with them on the outside (as per DoG) where the fitters could actually get at them. 

 

Thats the difference between Italian caprotti as correctly modelled here by Hornby and British caprotti as fitted to the last two, the caprotti Standard 5s and DoG. Developed by Associated Locomotive Engineering, a branch of the Heenan and Froude company in my home town of Worcester. 
 

The Black 5s with British caprotti are a bit more elegant than the locos fitted with Italian gear. 

[brushman47544]

Interesting… that cab reminds me of a Crab in terms of squatness but I presume it’s correct.

[Fair Oak Junction]

55 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

Interesting… that cab reminds me of a Crab in terms of squatness but I presume it’s correct.

 

I think it looks "off" because of the straight running board/footplate on the Caprotti ones. It doesn't curve down under the cab like most, as on the LMS version.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Fair Oak Junction

[The Stationmaster]

On 30/11/2023 at 17:29, Ian Hargrave said:

Can we please…for a while at any rate….now switch off the lamps and address what’s IMHO the more important issue for this particular model and consider the representation of the valve gear and motion itself. Hornby has done Caprotti previously with 71000 .What of this Black 5 on that score and what are the cognoscenti opinions of what’s seen thus far ?

There were two ver different looking Caprotti vavegear versions of the Black 5.  fortunately Hornby are doing te one that looks like a Stanier Black 5 and not the one that looked like a strange mixture of Italian and British bits and pieces and was about as good looking as a dustbin on wheels.

 

What we need to see from Hormnby is a picture of the right and side of the Cparotti version as the left hand side is simply a coupling rod and a connecting rod to the crosshead and piston etc assembly.  The Caprotti drive was on the other side and will be the more difficult bit to get right.  I'd quite loke one actually - provided  it delivers the goods but what I'd like above all is one with outside Stephenson valvegear - that really would be fun.

[Michael Hodgson]

This is still not going to be available from retailers, manufacturer management changes notwithstanding?

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

What we need to see from Hormnby is a picture of the right and side of the Cparotti version as the left hand side is simply a coupling rod and a connecting rod to the crosshead and piston etc assembly.  The Caprotti drive was on the other side and will be the more difficult bit to get right.  I'd quite loke one actually - provided  it delivers the goods but what I'd like above all is one with outside Stephenson valvegear - that really would be fun.

 

RHS shown here - no sign of external drive, just the eccentric crank working the lubricators.  As mentioned above, the Caprotti gubbins was inside.

[92220]

On 29/11/2023 at 09:21, Phil Parker said:

From Warley

 

Interesting reversing rod?  I assume it’s been damaged and they aren’t actually going to be like this?

 

Iain

[Ian Hargrave]

On 30/11/2023 at 20:35, Wheatley said:

Most of the whizzy spinny Caprotti bits were in between the frames. The last two were built with them on the outside (as per DoG) where the fitters could actually get at them. 

And apparently the best regarded of the bunch.44686 &44687 I believe,despite what Mike Stationmaster comments on their ungainly appearance.Chester 6A locos for a while.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Ian Hargrave
Adding text

[Mallard60022]

Holbeck like their three, but I can never remember if they suggested they were better on the flat or on the grades? I never knowingly saw one working anywhere.

Phil

[Ian Hargrave]

28 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Holbeck like their three, but I can never remember if they suggested they were better on the flat or on the grades? I never knowingly saw one working anywhere.

Phil

Barrow Road  22 A while still a Midland shed had an allocation too.They were used frequently on turns to New Street,Derby and the North.,alongside their conventional Black 5’s such as 45274 wrecked in the fatal Sutton Coldfield accident ( but subsequently repaired and latterly modelled by Hornby ) and the longstanding allocation of Jubilees . 

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Ian Hargrave
Adding text

[Mallard60022]

1 minute ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Barrow Road  22 A while still a Midland shed had an allocation too.They were used frequently on turns to New Street,Derby and the North.,alongside their conventional Black 5’s such as 45274 wrecked in the fatal Sutton Coldfield accident ( latterly modelled by Hornby ) and the longstanding allocation of Jubilees . 

I went on a shed bash in 1963 and a couple of visits to Bristol, just to see Midland stuff. I have a really carp pic somewhere of two of their Jubs on a D,H Train for the North. Might have been a Summer Devonian?

Barrow Road was amazing , but I got chucked out before I made the Roundhouse as I did not know of the Gasworks end 'entrance'. St P's Marsh was huge and I didn't dare try entering Bath Road due to the 'reputation' it had. 

There is a P4 Model of it on here somewhere (Blog); it's absolutely superb modelling.

Happy days yet again.

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

RHS shown here - no sign of external drive, just the eccentric crank working the lubricators.  As mentioned above, the Caprotti gubbins was inside.

What is that coming off the driving axle crank  - maybe a lubricator drive or something else?