Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Johan DC said:

Maybe Hornby's market is more than RMweb? If they get possitive feedback from other customers/retailers, they might go ahead is planned. 

It are (expensive) toys after all. 

Exactly the point.  Many of us on here have said either ditch the lamps or I won't buy or I'm chucking the lamps in the bin or whatever.  But we might well be a small number of an already small number for other reasons potential purchasers of a really good Black 5.

 

It's bit like firebox glow - although lamps are painfully more obvious - which  I regard as a rather silly gimmick bearing little resemblance to the real world.  But more and more new steam outline models areaappearing with it - somebody must like it  (assuming the models still sell ).  So - even at today's prices there are two markets to satisfy which to me means 'fair enough, as long as I can take the lamps off and put on realistic lamps instead you leave 'em there for those who want them'.  That might be a bigger design challenge but at least it would (hopefully) suit everybody.

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, Legend said:

Ditch the lights Hornby . It’s a step too far . You’ve turned a model into a toy . And at that price enthusiasts won’t make allowances or compromises 

I disagree, I say do it properly.

 

Ability to have configurable lit lamp irons is a bjg step forwards.

The lamps themselves can always be improved, by Hornby or an after market.

 

but if it becomes as simple as push fit a working lamp, or push fit a lamp iron…, choose your config,

whats wrong with that ?

 

This is a new step forward for 00 i wouldnt ditch it too quick.

 

I was looking at a P2 with synchronized smoke to wheel turn on saturday too.. its even got a wheelslip fucntion (though not the wheels). Pushing the needle is needed a little.

Edited November 26, 2023 by adb968008

[Legend]

17 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I disagree, I say do it properly.

 

Ability to have configurable lit lamp irons is a bjg step forwards.

The lamps themselves can always be improved, by Hornby or an after market.

 

but if it becomes as simple as push fit a working lamp, or push fit a lamp iron…, choose your config,

whats wrong with that ?

 

This is a new step forward for 00 i wouldnt ditch it too quick.

 

I was looking at a P2 with synchronized smoke to wheel turn on saturday too.. its even got a wheelslip fucntion (though not the wheels). Pushing the needle is needed a little.

yeah if they can do it properly within a price point fine. . But evidence so far is they haven’t . So against holding up this loco further I still say ditch the lights . They just look silly in current form . 

[Mallard60022]

[Zunnan]

50 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I disagree, I say do it properly.

 

Ability to have configurable lit lamp irons is a bjg step forwards.

The lamps themselves can always be improved, by Hornby or an after market.

 

 

I agree, to a point. Do it properly and its a huge forwards step. But I'm very much on the do it properly or don't do it at all side of the fence.

 

The god awful lamps on Turbomotive turned what is otherwise a fantastic model into a not at any price model for me, and what is being shown on the Black 5 is several steps worse on current showing.

[cctransuk]

I do wonder if any of those who are enthusiastic about working 'oil' lamps on models have ever actually seen the prototypes, when lit at night. I'm confident that they would be more than a little shocked at the faint light that they showed.

 

What is now difficult to conceive is how little ambient light there was at night on the railway - even in stations - so bright lights were not required.

 

I've a feeling that Colin Gifford's books contain some night shots - these give a very good impression of the general 'dimness' of the railway at night, as we geriatrics clearly remember.

 

CJI.

[Fair Oak Junction]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

It's bit like firebox glow - although lamps are painfully more obvious - which  I regard as a rather silly gimmick bearing little resemblance to the real world.  But more and more new steam outline models area appearing with it - somebody must like it  (assuming the models still sell ).  So - even at today's prices there are two markets to satisfy which to me means 'fair enough, as long as I can take the lamps off and put on realistic lamps instead you leave 'em there for those who want them'.  That might be a bigger design challenge but at least it would (hopefully) suit everybody.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't that many who actually care about firebox glow, but who buy the locos anyway because it's a class they want regardless. There is very little way of actually gauging how much these features/gimmicks influence sales without asking every purchaser "why did you buy this loco?" which is obviously impractical. I could not care less about the glow, but many of the upcoming models I want have it. So those manufacturers might take my purchases as indicative of people wanting the glow even though it isn't, there is no way for them to know.

 

And when it comes to these Black 5s I would definitely prefer to see them without the lamps, but as I wasn't going to buying one my opinion doesn't really matter 😄

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

So those manufacturers might take my purchases as indicative of people wanting the glow even though it isn't, there is no way for them to know.

 

They don't care - you bought the model, and paid extra for the privilege!

 

It's called 'added value', but really means 'added profit'.

 

CJI.

[Black 5 Bear]

12 hours ago, Covkid said:

Totally agree. Problem is, now that Hornby have displayed those silly lamps in the showcase at Warley, there is no going back, without eating a huge slab of humble pie. But they could easily say "We listened to our customers, and have decided not to proceed with the lighting arrangements. 

 

Hornby could easily place a bit of positive spin and say  "we are dropping the plans for the lighting and can announce that the planned RRP will be reduced because of our decision".  

I can see these ridiculous lamps, which totally spoil a fantastic offering from Hornby being ditched.

IMHO, no bad thing!

It does make you question why the Turbomotive has already been subject to unprecedented reductions so soon after release.

Along with being a niche item, could it be that potential customers don't want these oversized gimmicks?

Edited November 26, 2023 by Black 5 Bear

[Trevor Hammond]

57 minutes ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't that many who actually care about firebox glow, but who buy the locos anyway because it's a class they want regardless. There is very little way of actually gauging how much these features/gimmicks influence sales without asking every purchaser "why did you buy this loco?" which is obviously impractical. I could not care less about the glow, but many of the upcoming models I want have it. So those manufacturers might take my purchases as indicative of people wanting the glow even though it isn't, there is no way for them to know.

 

And when it comes to these Black 5s I would definitely prefer to see them without the lamps, but as I wasn't going to buying one my opinion doesn't really matter 😄

I have nine locomotives with the Flickering Firebox effect . I didn't want it as I regarded it as a gimmick which is just as well as on seven of the models the effect failed after less than 30 minutes cumulitive running. 

[MikeParkin65]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

So the conversation I had…

 

revealed apparently theres an LED under each lamp iron position.

Although the frame is 1mm thick, taking this into account it only leaves 0.1mm for the lamp to fit.

The factory wants to glue them, to stop them falling off in transit.

But not fitting them risks user fitting damage.

so catch 22.

 

my suggestion is 1 LED in the body somewhere, run a light track to the lamp iron positions. Then use lamps with a light track spike into the lampframe as it would give a full 1mm push fit.

It reduces leds from 4 to 1 led, as if theres a lamp it will be lit, theres no combination of lit / unlit lamps.

You could then also have a 1mm deep spike push fit lamp iron too, though i’d suggest having the lampiron metal than plastic.

I understand this batch is near ready, its the next loco tooling inline to arrive, so i’m guessing room to manoeuvre at this point is limited.

I didnt ask if there was a lampiron in the box, but there wasnt in the Turbomotive, and gluing them in sounds terminal, as removing them may leave a hole to fill in addition to a lampiron.

 

 

 

 

Unless I have misunderstood I was told subtly different to this when I spoke to the designer on the stand today. I was told that the model will be supplied with the lamps set to express goods but they will be removable and there will be a substitute lamp iron and blanking piece to fill the resulting void. I argued the case for not having the lights at all but the counter argument was that there was a segment of the market that does ‘and you can’t please everybody’. When I put forward the argument that these models are going to stand out in a bad way against existing stock on layouts I was told ‘the Europeans have had working lamps for years’.  
 

Again it’s such a shame Hornby have picked this model to test the innovation on - would have been better on the P2, any of the Dublo Scotsman’s, a Dublo ‘Mallard’, - anything that appeals to collectors and for which a fixed express headcode is relatively feasible. 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by MikeParkin65
Typos

[Fair Oak Junction]

4 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I argued the case for not having the lights at all but the counter argument was that there was a segment of the market that does ‘and you can’t please everybody’.

 

It would be nice to know where they ascertain info such as this. It's not like manufacturers regularly send out questionnaires asking buyers what features they are looking for in new models.

A few comments at shows? On forums? How big is this segment?

Are there really large numbers of people asking for working lights? Or is it that manufacturers want to try these things themselves, and customer demand is a convenient excuse?

Who knows, and unless we work for these companies I doubt we ever will know.

[cctransuk]

4 minutes ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

 

It would be nice to know where they ascertain info such as this. It's not like manufacturers regularly send out questionnaires asking buyers what features they are looking for in new models.

A few comments at shows? On forums? How big is this segment?

Are there really large numbers of people asking for working lights? Or is it that manufacturers want to try these things themselves, and customer demand is a convenient excuse?

Who knows, and unless we work for these companies I doubt we ever will know.

 

It comes, I am willing to bet, from marketing execs., (who know s*d all about railways), who want to be able to advertise yet another gimmick as being a 'FIRST EVER'!!!!!!!

 

CJI.

[Ollie K]

55 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Again it’s such a shame Hornby have picked this model to test the innovation on - would have been better on the P2, any of the Dublo Scotsman’s, a Dublo ‘Mallard’, - anything that appeals to collectors and for which a fixed express headcode is relatively feasible. 

 

As an LNER modeller I feel we've had a lucky escape not to have the P2s sullied by this, and that the W1 didn't either - my hunch is the W1 was supposed to debut the new lamps (hence the fixed overscale, unlit lamps fitted to the unrebuilt Hush-Hush, some in royal train formation) but production delays / teething issues parked it until the next big ticket steam locos, ie the Turbomotive and Black 5.

 

 

 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Unless I have misunderstood I was told subtly different to this when I spoke to the designer on the stand today. I was told that the model will be supplied with the lamps set to express goods but they will be removable and there will be a substitute lamp iron and blanking piece to fill the resulting void. I argued the case for not having the lights at all but the counter argument was that there was a segment of the market that does ‘and you can’t please everybody’. When I put forward the argument that these models are going to stand out in a bad way against existing stock on layouts I was told ‘the Europeans have had working lamps for years’.  

Thanks this does fill the gap though… so the lamps are configurable… as clearly on those on the stand showed all lamp iron positions can have a lamp.

 

So its really down to how good the lamps are, and how bright they are.

 

Reverting back to my suggestion, of one led in the body and a light track to the iron position, you will lose light in the track (as those complaining of the “dim” light on the turbomotives top lamp have indicated.

 

So next is someone to make decent lamps.

 

(I saw the comment from @cctransuk, but also Hornbys point), I should add how many modern image enthusiasts know that diesel drivers always drive with their cab lights out, yet almost every modern image loco in the last decade came with the cab lights on).. inaccurate; yes, popular; yes.

 

unfortunately sales revenues tends to the popular, rather than the accuracy, as thats what pays the bills… thats why for the next month most of our steam railways are running with american headlights, santa headboards and LEDs down the train… and i’m quite sure those elders and youngsters driving them are all to familiar how inaccurate that is.

 

Thing is, we are on the verge of having a choice, and it looks like you may have the choice to just fit a lamp iron and a springfield lamp if you want to continue to do so.

 

Personally I think the P2, W1 and A5 were all let down by dummy headlamps that were firmly glued into place (i’d rather they werent fitted at all). But I do like the idea of having access to lit lamps, but its got to be my choice of config and without any ill effects of not having them.

 

Quote

Again it’s such a shame Hornby have picked this model to test the innovation on - would have been better on the P2, any of the Dublo Scotsman’s, a Dublo ‘Mallard’, - anything that appeals to collectors and for which a fixed express headcode is relatively feasible. 

Turbomotive was the test one, though arguably the trailblazer was GT3. By all accounts Turbomotive was a lessons learned… nothing prevents change on future runs etc.

 

I think more than anything on the Black its the chunkiness of those lamps (and lets hope they dont turn red in reverse !!!).

 

A natural to try this on would be a Bulleid pacific or a B1… but that opens a different can of worms.

Edited November 26, 2023 by adb968008

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Unless I have misunderstood ....... I was told ‘the Europeans have had working lamps for years’.

 

Which, of course, completely overlooks the fact that European steam loco lamps are MUCH larger, usually in fixed locations, and not used for variable train description purposes!

 

That's what we are up against - marketing execs. who know nowt, care nowt about railways.

 

CJI.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by cctransuk

[adb968008]

17 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Which, of course, completely overlooks the fact that European steam loco lamps are MUCH larger, usually in fixed locations, and not used for variable train description purposes!

 

That's what we are up against - marketing execs. who know nowt, care nowt about railways.

 

CJI.

 

Dont forget the Chinese manufacturers…

 

At the end of the day this is a factory upsell. It costs next to nowt to do this, but if it justifies a price increase…

 

They have no understanding of how UK headlamps work… they are used to US as well as Europe, and even Chinese, Asia, Australian  and African steam has fixed electric headlamps…

 

This is one of those quaint British things that needs translation, in some respects this may be a good thing for Bachmann to have trail blazed, given there proximity to direct factory ownership.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by adb968008

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

Dont forget the Chinese manufacturers…

 

At the end of the day this is a factory upsell. It costs next to nowt to do this, but if it justifies a price increase…

 

I sincerely doubt that this stupid idea has originated with the factory.

 

They may have said "Do you want lights?", not realising the peculiarities of the British train description light system.

 

I'll bet a sales person has seized on this - being equally uninformed - and the long-suffering design team have been charged with achieving the impossible.

 

CJI.

[Clive Mortimore]

Oldish bloke remembering his days as a trainspotter in the 1960s.

 

Lamps were only lit in darkness and bad weather, why? It was because the illumination that an oil lamp gave during daylight was bu88er all, so why the waste oil?

Headcode lights on diesels, with the 10 watt bulbs behind the quite thick roller blind did not show, again lit during darkness and bad weather. OK some drivers kept them on after all they weren't paying the elecie bill.

Tail lights on diesels, never ever lit when pulling a train and in most locations a tail lamp was bunged on the back when traveling light engine. Only on a few lines did DMUs use their tail lights normally a tail lamp was used. Not all EMUs had tail lights so a lamp was used. As EMUs are restricted to where they can travel tail lights were what signalmen would look out for, not a tail lamp.

Train lights on hauled trains, turned on by the guard, if he wasn't busy, as the train entered a tunnel and turned off on departing the tunnel, during daylight hours. This was to save battery power and because the dynamo on coaches were not always reliable. EMUs and DMUs they were kept on. This time the guard wasn't paying the elecie bill.

I think I am just repeating myself when it comes to lights on British toy trains, but they are what the customer wants.

 

The average modeller is not always someone who cares about location or era but someone who likes running model trains, you know the chap who is in front of you in the model shop " I think I will have a Red engine this month as I have a Blue one last month". He may or may not like all the additional features, most do and they are the people who support our hobby by buying RTR locos etc. 

 

If you don't like the lamps remove them, should I buy a Caprotti Blackie that is what I will do.  If I don't I will modify one of my Black Fives as planned.

Talking of different types of valve gear, the Hornby Hunt class has the wrong type, so I made the right type Lentz Rotary Cam.

Something old fashioned called modelling.

 

[adb968008]

5 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I sincerely doubt that this stupid idea has originated with the factory.

 

They may have said "Do you want lights?", not realising the peculiarities of the British train description light system.

 

I'll bet a sales person has seized on this - being equally uninformed - and the long-suffering design team have been charged with achieving the impossible.

 

CJI.

The Sonic A5 was a pure China initiated project… for sure no one in the UK asked for it..

 

it arrived with a prefitted lamp.

 

I would be surprised if any Chinese cad designer thought anything differently than assuming the lamp in their photos was anything other than “the driver just putting it wherever they felt like”.

 

Should point out the steam railmotor has a suspicious lamp too, that looks like Rudolph might get jealous… but strangely so far no ones spotted it…

 

on the flip side the PWM Ruston looks rather silly without working lamps and takes us right back to the Mainline class 03 for details… 

Edited November 26, 2023 by adb968008

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

The Sonic A5 was a pure China initiated project… for sure no one in the UK asked for it..

 

it arrived with a prefitted lamp.

 

I would be surprised if any Chinese cad designer thought anything differently than assuming the lamp in their photos was anything other than “the driver just putting it wherever they felt like”.

 

Remember the Lima 'Western' - it was on the photo so it was on the model!

 

CJI.

[adb968008]

9 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Remember the Lima 'Western' - it was on the photo so it was on the model!

 

CJI.

And the 1980’s Hornby Duchess, in freight config too.

 

I did actually realise I missed the true starting point of lit headlamps in the 21st century UK Steam was actually Dapols Black label A4… no one really complained (apart from fault electrics)….it had steam too…

 

Hornby wouldnt have really said “copy that” would they ?

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by adb968008

[ikcdab]

All this new innovation, lamps, synchronised smoke, wheel squeel etc....

 

Yet still no locomotive crews!  Such a simple and cheap thing to fit, yet the overwhelming majority of RTR engines run around with ghost drivers....

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Which, of course, completely overlooks the fact that European steam loco lamps are MUCH larger, usually in fixed locations, and not used for variable train description purposes!

 

That's what we are up against - marketing execs. who know nowt, care nowt about railways.

 

CJI.

 

 

And CONSUMERS* who want such things!

 

Folk on this forum have a tendency to forget that prototypical railway modellers are only a small part of a much wider consumer spectrum - and in fact I would wager that there are far more 'couldn't care less about accuracy' customers within the hobby as a whole.

 

Given the reasons model railway manufacturers exists is to make profits for their owners / shareholders if the addition of bright lights was disliked by consumers then said marketing execs would rapidly find themselves replaced due to slow sales. The fact that light / sound is being pushed ever harder says the reverse is true 

 

*The target audience for a certain online reviewer whose name begins with S being typical of people who love their locos festooned with bright lights regardless of how prototypical it is.

[Covkid]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

*The target audience for a certain online reviewer whose name begins with S being typical of people who love their locos festooned with bright lights regardless of how prototypical it is.

 

Also not forgetting the sprung buffers and screwed not clipped base keeper plate bring higher value !!!

 

 

Seriously though, as has been previously said - yes, European locos had lights but these were gnerally powered by steam turbo generators, controlled from the cab ands sometime had high beam and reduced beam.  UK steam locos generally carried paraffin oil lamps, but fundamentally, iot was the position and configuration of the lamps on the various lamp irons which indicated what the train was.  The Brits innovated in that respect but it was as important not to place lamps on particular lamp irons for this exact reason. Additionally though, and I don't know the answer to this, say a light locomotive came off Derby Four shed to run light to St Marys to work some empties up to Denby or wherever, what lamp code would the fireman have set prior to leaving the shed ?