Highland Railway 'Jones Goods' 4-6-0 in 00

[E100]

It's a shame as I prefer the green of the earlier but the HR markings of the later... ...decisions decisions

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, E100 said:

It's a shame as I prefer the green of the earlier but the HR markings of the later... 

 

Ah well, that's a grumble you'll have to direct to the shades of Messrs Jones and Drummond.

[Tramshed]

On 27/02/2022 at 16:20, Synch said:

 

The early livery is the LMS plate on the cabside with large tender numerals, this was the painting style up until 1928 when smaller letters were utilized, number on the loco and LMS on the tender; the lined black was carried by at least 4 of the class after 1928, Lochgorm had a fascination for painting some of their own engines somewhat above their station(!).  As a result the lined and unlined post 1928 schemes could actually be seen running side by side.

I have the Essery and Jenkinson LMS Liveries series and have put their information for the LMS liveries below, for just 15 engines there was a good amount of variation (though given the variation in lettering size and color on the LMS this isn't terribly surprising).

 

Original Condition, Jones Chimney/Wingplates:

 

 - Code C1 (Pre 1928 Standard Plain Black, 18 Inch Numerals, Cab/Bunker Panel)     17916-8/20-2/4-5/7-30 (17916 recorded as having a short chimney)
 - Code B5 (Post 1927 Standard, Gold/Black Insignia, 10 Inch Numerals, Lined)      17919/26/8/30

 - Code C13 (Post 1927 Standard, Gold/Black Insignia, 10 Inch Numerals)   17917-8

 

Later Condition, Wingplates Removed + Drummond Chimney:

 

 - Code C1 (Pre 1928 Standard Plain Black, 18 Inch Numerals, Cab/Bunker Panel)     17920 (Retained this livery until withdrawal in 1937)

 - Code C15 (Post 1927 Standard, Gold/Black Insignia, 14 Inch Numerals, Midland Pattern)   17916-7/23-5/7/9-30

 - Code C14 (Post 1927 Standard, Gold/Black Insignia, 12 Inch Numerals)   17926  

Interesting that 17920, one of the Rapido models, appears in the lists for both original and 'later' condition. My only reference is 'The Scottish 4-6-0 classes' by C.P.Atkins. There is a sequence of photographs between pages 32 & 33 showing the Jones Goods. Among them 17920 in what is captioned as 'substantially original condition' in LMS black with cab side plate and tender numerals. The only difference between the photo and the Rapido version is the photograph clearly shows the smokebox wing plates. The conclusion from this is that the wing plates must have been removed sometime between 1924 and 1928 else presumably it would have been done at a works visit after which it would have received the later LMS livery. There is also a photo of 103 'as originally preserved by the LMS with H.R. lettering on the tender on a livery which is clearly one of the highland green liveries as the boiler bands show up white against a dark background. Full length tender though.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Tramshed
typo

[E100]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah well, that's a grumble you'll have to direct to the shades of Messrs Jones and Drummond.

 

I'll add them to the list when I obtain my tardis!

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Tramshed said:

Interesting that 17920, one of the Rapido models, appears in the lists for both original and 'later' condition. My only reference is 'The Scottish 4-6-0 classes by C.P.Atkins. There is a sequence of photographs between pages 32 & 33 showing the Jones Goods. Among them 17920 in what is captioned as 'substantially original condition' in LMS black with cabside plate and tender numerals. The only difference between the photo and the Rapido version is the photograph clearly shows the smokebox wingplates. The conclusion from this is that the wingplates must have been removed sometime between 1024 and 1928 else presumably it would have been done at a works visit after which it would have received the later LMS livery. There is also a photo of 103 'as originally preserved by the LMS with H.R. lettering on the tender on a livery which is clearly one of the highland green liveries as the boiler bands show up white against a dark background. Full length tender though.

Removal of the wing-plates would only have affected the black parts of the loco, and wouldn't necessarily have resulted in a full repaint if the existing livery was in good condition. Unless done at a general overhaul, it might depend on what else needed doing at the time.

 

John

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

But what would have induced cornulaminotomy? It seems to be a procedure with no discernible benefit. I can only suppose that the smokebox as a whole needed renewal; I imagine this would have gone hand-in-hand with a boiler change so we're presumably looking at heavy repairs. Do the engine history cards for this class survive?

[Corbs]

2 hours ago, Tramshed said:

Interesting that 17920, one of the Rapido models, appears in the lists for both original and 'later' condition. My only reference is 'The Scottish 4-6-0 classes by C.P.Atkins. There is a sequence of photographs between pages 32 & 33 showing the Jones Goods. Among them 17920 in what is captioned as 'substantially original condition' in LMS black with cabside plate and tender numerals. The only difference between the photo and the Rapido version is the photograph clearly shows the smokebox wingplates. The conclusion from this is that the wingplates must have been removed sometime between 1024 and 1928 else presumably it would have been done at a works visit after which it would have received the later LMS livery. There is also a photo of 103 'as originally preserved by the LMS with H.R. lettering on the tender on a livery which is clearly one of the highland green liveries as the boiler bands show up white against a dark background. Full length tender though.

 

17920 had the wingplates removed but retained the original LMS livery as seen in these photos. The references I have seen say that a lot of the locos had the wingplates put back on at some point (I had never realised that wingplates served a purpose in helping to prevent the boiler expanding forward).

I have 17920 as having lost the wingplates in 1932.

There might need to be some clarification on version as the artwork shows safety valve lock-ups and wingplates but the description is for the later version. I will try and find out.

 

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/asset/24991/

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/asset/24948/1/EN24948-lms-17920-at.htm/

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/asset/24915/1/GD24915-lms.htm/

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Corbs

[Corbs]

2 hours ago, Tramshed said:

IThere is also a photo of 103 'as originally preserved by the LMS with H.R. lettering on the tender on a livery which is clearly one of the highland green liveries as the boiler bands show up white against a dark background. Full length tender though.

There is a colour photo around which shows this.

The tender tank is the short one but with the toolbox removed, 103 did not receive a long tender tank so far as I can tell.

This is from after the 1946 overhaul but before the 1958 one.

1934 - Chimney nicked off 106, repainted Drummond lined green with HR lettering, Cumming number plate

1946 - Repainted a lighter green with inaccurate lining (esp. front splasher)

1958 - Repainted IEG, wingplates restored, dummy lock-up covers over the ross pop valves, toolbox restored, no HR on tender

Post-1965 - IEG but with HR lettering on tender, warning flashes removed, lining altered.

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Corbs

[Tramshed]

7 minutes ago, Corbs said:

This photo?

The tender tank is the short one but with the toolbox removed, 103 did not receive a long tender tank so far as I can tell.

This is from after the 1946 overhaul but before the 1958 one.

1934 - Chimney nicked off 106, repainted Drummond lined green with HR lettering, Cumming number plate

1946 - Repainted a lighter green with inaccurate lining (esp. front splasher)

1958 - Repainted IEG, wingplates restored, dummy lock-up covers over the ross pop valves, toolbox restored, no HR on tender

Post-1965 - IEG but with HR lettering on tender, warning flashes removed, lining altered.

Thanks Corbs. Atkins has B&W photo from L/H side but yes, short tank and no toolbox.

[Corbs]

Just spoke to RTUK and they confirmed that 17920 will be in the later condition with the Caley style front end and that the artwork on the website will be changed.

 

After more info has been received, the tenders on the LMS versions will be altered to the short tank with no toolbox versions as only 105, 110, 113 and 116 received the long tender tanks. 113 still had the toolbox in the condition it is being modelled.

[No Decorum]

11 hours ago, E100 said:

 

I'll add them to the list when I obtain my tardis!

If you change their minds, will all our reference materials and models change too?

 

(“I must be going ga-ga. I’ll swear that HR wasn’t on the tender last night.”)

[E100]

2 hours ago, No Decorum said:

If you change their minds, will all our reference materials and models change too?

 

(“I must be going ga-ga. I’ll swear that HR wasn’t on the tender last night.”)

What's this grouping you speak of...

 

[AlfaZagato]

4 hours ago, E100 said:

What's this grouping you speak of...

 

A blessing in disguise.  I have too much coaching stock as-is.

[New Haven Neil]

20 hours ago, Corbs said:

 

17920 had the wingplates removed but retained the original LMS livery as seen in these photos. The references I have seen say that a lot of the locos had the wingplates put back on at some point (I had never realised that wingplates served a purpose in helping to prevent the boiler expanding forward).

I have 17920 as having lost the wingplates in 1932.

There might need to be some clarification on version as the artwork shows safety valve lock-ups and wingplates but the description is for the later version. I will try and find out.

 

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/asset/24991/

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/asset/24948/1/EN24948-lms-17920-at.htm/

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/asset/24915/1/GD24915-lms.htm/

 

 

 

 

 

 

As the sans-wing plates photo has visible rivets on the smokebox, I'd say that indicates a boiler change.

[Corbs]

Artwork/descriptions on the website have been updated.

The LMS versions all now have short tender tanks.

17920 is confirmed as being in the later condition with Caley-style front end.

The lined version is now 17928 with the HR louvred chimney, wingplates and 2-handle smokebox door.

[GeoffBird]

I understand that two of them were fitted with Westzinghouse pumps to work with Caledonian stock.  Is either of these one of the locos modelled?   Where were the pumps fitted and when did they disappear?

[pH]

1 hour ago, GeoffBird said:

I understand that two of them were fitted with Westzinghouse pumps to work with Caledonian stock.  Is either of these one of the locos modelled?   Where were the pumps fitted and when did they disappear?

17919 (HR106) and 17929 (HR116) appear to have pumps on the right-hand side:
 

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/search/?searchQuery=17919

 

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/search/?searchQuery=17929

 

HR106 is being modelled, but the website shows only a left side view.

 

There are several pictures of both engines on that “ambaile” website. That could help to show the ‘at least until’ dates for the pump being fitted.

[Corbs]

1 hour ago, GeoffBird said:

I understand that two of them were fitted with Westzinghouse pumps to work with Caledonian stock.  Is either of these one of the locos modelled?   Where were the pumps fitted and when did they disappear?

 

106 and 116 were fitted with Westinghouse gear in HR days. 106 had the pumps fitted until it was scrapped in 1934. 116 (17929) was rebuilt in 1932 using the frames from 17918 and the old frames (still with Westinghouse gear attached) were dumped at St. Rollox. The reference says that in the years prior to rebuilding, the pump was unused/disconnected anyway.

RTUK are doing 106 but before the Westinghouse gear was added as there is a photo of this loco in this condition and livery to match to. Opportunity for someone to print one perhaps?

 

This pic shows the pump on the right hand side.

[Corbs]

On 01/03/2022 at 11:38, Corbs said:

There is a colour photo around which shows this.

The tender tank is the short one but with the toolbox removed, 103 did not receive a long tender tank so far as I can tell.

This is from after the 1946 overhaul but before the 1958 one.

1934 - Chimney nicked off 106, repainted Drummond lined green with HR lettering, Cumming number plate

1946 - Repainted a lighter green with inaccurate lining (esp. front splasher)

1958 - Repainted IEG, wingplates restored, dummy lock-up covers over the ross pop valves, toolbox restored, no HR on tender

Post-1965 - IEG but with HR lettering on tender, warning flashes removed, lining altered.

 

 

FINALLY, found a pic of 103's 1934 restoration. No wingplates, 106's chimney, Drummond livery but with correct lining, Cumming numberplate.

 

 

Contrast this with the 1946 refurbishment, you can see how much lighter the green was (and the fact it is not two-tone any more), and see how the lining on the front splasher mimics the LMS lining rather than the HR style.

 

 

There's also a few photos of it being repainted:

https://www.ambaile.org.uk/search/?searchQuery=17916

 

Some more shots of 106 showing the Westinghouse pump and snow plough brackets on the smokebox.

 

Tempting to get the 106 in Jones livery and add the pump and brackets for a bit of interest.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

The more I read on here about the Jones Goods the more it sounds like the GWR's understanding of the word 'standardiosation'. - that sounds like an even better reason to buy one

[Corbs]

On 28/02/2022 at 22:59, E100 said:

It's a shame as I prefer the green of the earlier but the HR markings of the later... ...decisions decisions

 

Apparently some of the Jones-livery locos did indeed have HR markings added to the tender by Drummond when the paint was in good condition. So you could justify the Jones one and some HR decals?

[Legend]

Finally went for an HR Green one  via Rails . Looking forward to it . Excellent addition to my Caley 812 , Maude J36  and Superannuated Caley 123 . 

[Corbs]

Regarding the Westinghouse pumps, can anyone tell me if they were indeed for interoperability with Caley stock, or if they were only to provide stronger loco brakes?

There are no signs of air pipes on the front of the locos and it would be a bit odd to only have them on the rear.

[pH]

47 minutes ago, Corbs said:

Regarding the Westinghouse pumps, can anyone tell me if they were indeed for interoperability with Caley stock, or if they were only to provide stronger loco brakes?

There are no signs of air pipes on the front of the locos and it would be a bit odd to only have them on the rear.

Not too unusual, apparently. David L. Smith wrote that Smellie’s “Wee Bogies” on the G&SWR originally did not have Westinghouse hoses on the front end.

[uax6]

Only for Westinghouse fitted stock, and as the locos were always turned on the main line, no need to fit them at the front, same goes for steam heating pipes on passenger locos..

 

 

Andy G

Edit, they would also get in the way of fitting the nose snowploughs.. (How about making some of these?)

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by uax6