British outline 1:120 TT from Heljan

[Hroth]

16 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

So the first models around maybe Jan/Feb 2023 (being pessimistic), and one assumes the track will be out first along with any locos, or maybe they will just release “Train Sets” first?

 

Would be a good idea to get train sets out before Christmas.

 

According to SK in last Mondays turgid presentation, phase 1 track is already in stock and the two boxed sets will be released before Christmas, so they may well be on the high seas already.

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

14 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Hornby have effectively poisoned the UK outline TT:120 well by announcing such a wide range of models and by refusing to sell through retailers.  Working on something else doesn't help if the retailers won't be interested in carrying it because 99% of the product is only available through Hornby.com ...

 

More strongly worded than I’d have put it, but it does get what I think is a key underlying point across clearly, effectively and succinctly, so I have to agree, Keith.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Keith Addenbrooke]

12 hours ago, mdvle said:

the financial risk to anyone else - Heljan or otherwise - has increased dramatically.  Thus it is no longer feasible - from a risk perspective - for Heljan to continue in TT:120 even with a different prototype.

 

Again - nails it.  While the post may appear to be about Hornby, it’s right this shows here in the Heljan thread as I think it sums up the dilemma and decision for Heljan very well, better than I’ve been able to explain it.  Thank you.

 

As someone interested in TT:120 as a scale for modelling*, Heljan’s withdrawal announcement was as significant as Hornby’s for me this week when looking long-term - for the precise reasons @mdvle has spelt out.

 

As this is the Heljan thread I’m not going to speculate further what it means for TT:120, but a relevant point is being made, Keith.

________________

* Prior to Peco’s TT:120 announcement, I had no plans to model in Standard Gauge until I retire, and no plans to return to UK modelling at all (my planned retirement project is American HO).  TT:120 is a real game changer for me in that sense.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[mdvle]

12 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

Okay, thanks for the summary. It does help put things into perspective - but I still think Hornby's approach is more right than wrong. *If* they had been making the announcement without five years of work already having been done, with everything just being vapourware at the moment, then I'd say okay, maybe they shouldn't have announced the 31, since Heljan has already announced it, but as it is we don't know how far along they are with theirs - and they really didn't have a choice but to come out all guns blazing.

 

It's not the duplication per se - Hornby is innocent (in this case) of deliberately trying to hurt another company given that we know Hornby has been planning this for years.

 

The problem is that Hornby is clearly attempting to claim TT:120 as an exclusive Hornby only scale - and that isn't good for us modellers.

 

12 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

The flipside of that backstory, then, is: if the retailers are already annoyed with them, could they genuinely expect the retailers to want to stock TT at all? I can certainly see them sitting in the boardroom discussing that and concluding that no, that's too big a chance to take.

 

The key thing is Hornby is for the most part too big to not offer to their customers - which is of course the only reason Hornby has gotten away with their antics so far in OO.

 

Would they buy TT:120 stock to put on the shelf?  Maybe, maybe not - but they would sell Hornby TT:120 out of the catalog to any customer who walked in (physically or virtually) to the store and asked for it and that option has been removed.  And if this had of been a broader multi-company product array then the Hornby items would have been more likely to be featured.

 

But as it stands today UK TT:120 is a Hornby only scale and only available from Hornby direct - so there is zero reason for any retailer to support TT:120 going forward even if they were interested after the Peco announcement.

[mdvle]

18 minutes ago, mdvle said:

It's not the duplication per se - Hornby is innocent (in this case) of deliberately trying to hurt another company given that we know Hornby has been planning this for years.

 

I'm now not so sure about this.

 

Hornby may be innocent, but it may also be deliberate.

 

Heljan announced their 31 4 months ago (June 14th).

 

The Hornby 31 is a vague "phase III" release sometime in the future - say maybe 2H 2023 - so over a year to bring to market which is potentially doable given they already have the research and drawings for their OO Class 31.

 

So long term planned by Hornby or a reaction?  Don't know.

[jjb1970]

Hornby keeping their TT sales direct from their website doesn't stop any other manufacturer doing TT. If Hornby establishes a demand for TT others will consider whether it is worth entering the scale. If others do enter the scale because they think the demand is there then either retailers will sell it or we will see more movement to direct sales. As with most things, if there's a demand for something then companies will seek to offer it. The key question is whether Hornby can create that demand. If they do we will see Heljan and others re-evaluate whether they should do TT 

[andythenorth]

37 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

Hornby keeping their TT sales direct from their website doesn't stop any other manufacturer doing TT.

+1, agree. 👍

 

That this needs to be said at all when it should be glaringly obvious is strange, but there we go 😀 

 

Talk of Hornby claiming TT:120 as theirs exclusively is bizarre.  Currently it's "theirs" only by dint of Hornby betting at least part of the farm on it, which nobody else fancies doing.  If other manufacturers wanted to play they could lay their own table stakes, it's just obviously a bit early for that eh? 🤑

 

On the original topic, it's understandable but disappointing that Heljan felt driven out.  I had a 31 on pre-order. I'm not in favour of the idea of Hornby as sole supplier of RTR stock. 

 

If I wasn't already running a business, I'd be looking at design and manufacturing for a line of TT wagons. Of all the things putting me off, competing with Hornby is not one of them.  Talk is cheap though, and tooling is expensive 🙃

 

EDIT: found an old blog I had, seems to have an appropriate name 😛 https://ttfoundry.wordpress.com/

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by andythenorth

[Edge]

39 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

I'm now not so sure about this.

 

Hornby may be innocent, but it may also be deliberate.

 

Heljan announced their 31 4 months ago (June 14th).

 

The Hornby 31 is a vague "phase III" release sometime in the future - say maybe 2H 2023 - so over a year to bring to market which is potentially doable given they already have the research and drawings for their OO Class 31.

 

So long term planned by Hornby or a reaction?  Don't know.

Again, in fairness, the Triang 31 is one of the definitive TT models from the original TT range. It would have naturally been one of the first choices both for the reasons of nostalgia and for the practical reasons of research already being completed, and it’s clear the Heljan didn’t get too far with their own project before discontinuing it.

 

on this one, my own totally uninformed reading of it is that Hornby wasn’t trying to duplicate anything - it’s just one of those things.

 

 

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

The problem is that Hornby is clearly attempting to claim TT:120 as an exclusive Hornby only scale - and that isn't good for us modellers.

 

How is this at all a new thing? On the contrary I'd say this is an *old* thing - just look at catalogues from the 80s, not just big names Fleischmann or Roco or Lima but even minnows like Austria's little Kleinbahn all presented themselves as being the only manufacturer that exists.

 

Tillig tried exactly the same thing with TT, tried to claim it all for itself (but tolerated the small cottage industries producing things not worth it for them to make), if a potential competitor came up with a product or line that might compete they bought them out or did them in (see JATT); when Roco got into TT they obviously couldn't buy Roco out, but nevertheless succeeded in forcing Roco out of TT for a while. But eventually Piko and the start-up Kuehn came along and said no, enough, and carved their own piece out of Tillig's pie, and Roco came back.

 

The difference between Roco bailing out as they did and Heljan doing it is that in Roco's case they were trying to take on an already-established Goliath. Heljan running away isn't comparable because Hornby aren't that Goliath (yet), despite their pretensions to the title.

 

I'd argue that by withdrawing, Heljan are condemning UK outline 1:120 to the same fate Continental had in the 90s and early 00s, and it will be *harder* for other manufacturers to get in on the game once Hornby are indeed the Goliath, than it would have been to prevent that total domination early on.

[britishcolumbian]

6 hours ago, TT-Pete said:

 

The good thing about the cast Taurus chassis is that is can be extensively chopped and filed, so quite probably it could be persuaded to fit, although the bogie wheelbase that is just about acceptable for 8'6" in 1:101 might be too far out in 1:120, but might then be closer to the 10' of a Hymek in 1:120. Hmmm. I've said this about a million times before, "I don't need any more projects" but I have got a spare Taurus chassis knocking about and Lincoln Locos do a Hymek, so......

 Yeah, the Lincoln Locos Hymek body is what I was looking at. If you do go ahead with this I'll follow with great interest, since the Hymek was a key player in my chosen place and time... but I'm going to start a new thread in the 1:120 section to talk about powering Lincoln bodies.

[Covkid]

1 hour ago, britishcolumbian said:

 

How is this at all a new thing? On the contrary I'd say this is an *old* thing - just look at catalogues from the 80s, not just big names Fleischmann or Roco or Lima but even minnows like Austria's little Kleinbahn all presented themselves as being the only manufacturer that exists.

 

Tillig tried exactly the same thing with TT, tried to claim it all for itself (but tolerated the small cottage industries producing things not worth it for them to make), if a potential competitor came up with a product or line that might compete they bought them out or did them in (see JATT); when Roco got into TT they obviously couldn't buy Roco out, but nevertheless succeeded in forcing Roco out of TT for a while. But eventually Piko and the start-up Kuehn came along and said no, enough, and carved their own piece out of Tillig's pie, and Roco came back.

 

The difference between Roco bailing out as they did and Heljan doing it is that in Roco's case they were trying to take on an already-established Goliath. Heljan running away isn't comparable because Hornby aren't that Goliath (yet), despite their pretensions to the title.

 

I'd argue that by withdrawing, Heljan are condemning UK outline 1:120 to the same fate Continental had in the 90s and early 00s, and it will be *harder* for other manufacturers to get in on the game once Hornby are indeed the Goliath, than it would have been to prevent that total domination early on.

 

You are assuming of course that Hornby make a successful fist of it with TT120 and other companies clamour to join the great TT goldrush.   We have had countless similar debates about the budgets of modelers and collectors in the past, but is there really a many hundred thousand pound pot of cash available to spend on Hornby TT's glittering new product line ?  Personally I don't think so and something will be detrimental. 

[britishcolumbian]

2 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

You are assuming of course that Hornby make a successful fist of it with TT120 and other companies clamour to join the great TT goldrush.   We have had countless similar debates about the budgets of modelers and collectors in the past, but is there really a many hundred thousand pound pot of cash available to spend on Hornby TT's glittering new product line ?  Personally I don't think so and something will be detrimental. 

 

I'm assuming only that 1:120 will be successful enough for Hornby to continue with it for a while - there is sufficient interest in Mitteleuropa that Continental sales *will* probably carry it along for a while even if the British market doesn't work out quite as well as they hope, so if naught else Hornby 1:120 will continue as issues of iconic trains/locomotives for collectors in Central Europe, HST, FS, and the like. So they will certainly milk the moulds they have now and already in the works.

 

Only the entry of other manufacturers can make 1:120 even bigger than Hornby hope... only the others have anything to lose by not getting involved, Hornby will eventually at the least break even.

[frobisher]

12 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

Okay, that does make sense... but weren't Heljan's choices some of the most obvious ones? Which I mean I get, in terms of what how much life (variants) you can get out of a design... but then it suggests to me that Heljan's miscalculation was not expecting anyone bigger than themselves to get involved in British 1:120 (yet)?

 

I think the surprise was how "all in" Hornby with this initial announcement.  There's probably three times the number of locos promised than we would have reasonably expected.  I suspect Heljan were fully aware that Hornby were leading the push into TT:120 though, hence being careful with their first prototype choice.

 

Hornby via Corgi had various steam locos as static models, (the body shells of which seem to have made it across unmodified in the A4's case from what we can see...) and Heljan don't produce as many steam locos as Hornby to start with, so they would have obviously ruled out going with any of the A1/A3, A4, Castle, Brittania and Peppercorn A1 in any case.  Also, valve gear is a complication that can be avoided in a first model.

 

The 31 was a good bet for Heljan (and given the renders they have shown so time has definitely been spent on the project), as it is a prototype that Hornby have neglected in 00 over the last few years and covers a lot of bases and a long service life in particular.   With hindsight, the Class 25 should have been the one to go with for Heljan (and who knows, they probably should if they take another run at it).

 

 

 

The 31 wasn't as an inevitable model as the 08.  Someone was going to do one sooner or later, but maybe not straight away (as is in fact happening) due to the issues with the outside frame con-rods.  But Hornby have CAD for this (so was always higher risk).

 

The J94 should have been a lower risk option as it's not in the current Hornby 00 range, and the tooling they have is pre-CAD.

 

As such it's a little surprising (and bad luck) that all three were swatted out.  It's not really a measure of Heljan's commitment but rather Hornby's.

 

 

 

[Ravenser]

Having bailed out so quickly, just 4 months after the announcement, I think it is unlikely Heljan will return to TT-120 in anything less than the very long term.

 

There might be some problems of credibility if they announced another TT project. Having bailed completely once, there would be heavy speculation they wouldn't see through anything else they announced in the scale later. If Hornby's project fails (as it could well do, sooner or later)  HJ won't want to go anywhere near TT. If it succeeds, then HJ might fear a Hornby counter.

 

There is also the fact that the retail trade have moved on from feeling lukewarm/indiffernt to the scale . Many now clearly feel that it would be against their interests for the scale to have a future here, and some have declared they will nor support it in any way.

 

Its becoming harder and harder to see this as a scale that is found in every model shop. I think it could only be a scale available through a limited  range of specialists.

 

One other point - Heljan make plenty of locos, but they have never show a lot of interest in making things for the locos to pull. It was already being said that a 31 was all well and good - but where was the stock for it to haul?

[TT-Pete]

On 16/10/2022 at 09:56, TT-Pete said:

 "I don't need any more projects"

17 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

If you do go ahead with this I'll follow with great interest,

 

Damm, looks like I've got another project.

[HSB]

At one time Heljan were going to bring out a Class 37 as the first of a range of British H0 (I had four on order!) but pulled out because they didn't have the number of pre-orders they wanted. This was at a time when the quality of 00 models was generally very poor compared with Continental products and there was an opportunity to create a new market.

When they entered the 0 gauge market their first loco was a Hymek and they have since produced a Western and a Warship. With no mention of any Diesel Hydraulics by Hornby and given the popularity of Western Region prototypes I would think that would have been a good place for them to start in TT.

[frobisher]

1 hour ago, HSB said:

When they entered the 0 gauge market their first loco was a Hymek and they have since produced a Western and a Warship. With no mention of any Diesel Hydraulics by Hornby and given the popularity of Western Region prototypes I would think that would have been a good place for them to start in TT.

 

There would definitely be a market for those (probably after the Hornby GWR coaches are shown to be properly in progress, certainly after we know the MK1s are delivered).  Heljan, I think, have tooled up (to modern standards) the most Hydraulics of the UK outline manufacturers as they've got the 14 as well.

[MartinRS]

As I understand it the Heljan Class 31 was going to priced at £200. The Hornby Easterner Train Set will cost £194.49 (without the discount). Putting any personal preferences aside about the manufacturers involved or the prototypes on offer, would you rather have a loco, three coaches, an oval of track and a controller or just one diesel-electric ? With the present state of the economy is it any wonder that Heljan have dropped their plans to produce a Class 31 ? Heljan could have designed a different engine, one not on the Hornby list, but with Hornby reducing their prices by going down the direct sales route I think it was inevitable that Heljan decided to stand back. As the Krone is pegged to the Euro the chaotic changes to the value of sterling is another factor which might have played a part in Heljan's decision.

 

I hope that Hornby are successful with their TT:120 range. When Peco announced their TT:120 streamline track, their buildings and their planned wagons I was disappointed. My reaction was TT:120 needs a full range of track, buildings and locomotives from an established manufacturer, otherwise TT:120 will never achieve its full potential in the UK. We now have that range of track and other products on offer. If TT:120 does survive for a few years as a UK outline product I suspect it will take a significant share of the market.

 

I also hope that Heljan eventually produce TT:120 models that appeal to railway modellers in the UK. They might pick a British outline locomotive that has seen use on the continent in order to broaden their potential market. For a mainland European manufacturer now is probably not the right time to challenge a UK manufacturer which is offering a range of discounted products in an as yet unproven market when the Sterling exchange rate is on a roller coaster.

[stevegr]

Do you want to find out there's a market for TT:120?

Let Hornby do the finding! lol

Then join that market if there is one.

Edited October 17, 2022 by stevegr

[blueeighties]

1 hour ago, stevegr said:

Do you want to find out there's a market for TT:120?

Let Hornby do the finding! lol

Then join that market if there is one.

Well done. That statement would have saved 72 pages of waffle on the Hornby thread 😄

[rob D2]

HJ should stick to making dodgy proportioned O gauge, it's their niche 

['CHARD]

1 hour ago, rob D2 said:

HJ should stick to making dodgy proportioned O gauge, it's their niche 

 

Where should I put sir's saucer of milk? 😉

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by 'CHARD

[shunny]

I think price has a lot to do with it, by selling direct Hornby can keep the price more competitive. Heljan don't sell a thing direct to the public so every model has a traditional retailer margin in the price to allow shops to make a living. These forum would be full of moaners asking why Hornby can sell a class 50 for £145 pounds and Heljan with recent price rise would be £50- 70 more for a similar diesel. 

[Covkid]

3 hours ago, shunny said:

I think price has a lot to do with it, by selling direct Hornby can keep the price more competitive. Heljan don't sell a thing direct to the public so every model has a traditional retailer margin in the price to allow shops to make a living. These forum would be full of moaners asking why Hornby can sell a class 50 for £145 pounds and Heljan with recent price rise would be £50- 70 more for a similar diesel. 

 

But the industry needs model shops, like hospitals need blood donations.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work that one out.  The hobby is not cheap but people in the hobby want to go to their shops to browse and buy.  Even if they only need a pack of fishplates and another left hand point, the model shop allows them to gaze longingly into show cases of new stuff (for potential future or spur of the moment purchases) but also pick up 2nd hand items, have a chat with the owners and learn about new stuff announced. 

 

If only Hornby stuck with the programme and helped the trade to help them, like Heljan and others do. 

 

Am I right in thinking Heljan have dropped British TT 120 completely now ?

Edited October 22, 2022 by Covkid

[5Dublo2]

17 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

Am I right in thinking Heljan have dropped British TT 120 completely now ?

At this current tine they have dropped all that they originally announced, however, Heljan's withdrawl notice was titled with a graphic containing the letters TT:FN - which would appear to be a pun on TT that included a reference to "Ta Ta For Now!" (or TTFN in text speak). Which kind of indicates that they  are keeping their options open.