British outline 1:120 TT from Heljan

[JSpencer]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

However if it falls flat on its face Hornby top management will need a scapegoat - whoever that happens to be.  Of course if it turns out to be a huge success it will no doubt be down to 'a bold decision by top management'.  And in reality whichever way it goes will sit with whoever signed off the business plan (I'm assuming they have one).

 

It must have been fun writing a business plan for that. An awful lot of unknowns and key assumptions that the big loco names will win it.

 

[britishcolumbian]

2 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Continental tt motor and bogies only just squeeze in to uk 3mm scale bodies...ie class 25 etc.....Will need slimming down and shortening to fit tt120 if bogie dimensions correct

Yeah it's not looking very promising for the Hymek. There are a couple of B-B locomotives that have the correct bogie wheelbase, but the pivot distance is much too long (DR 230/CD 371); close to correct pivot distance, and the bogies are a foot shorter (DB V80). The third option is a little 2-axle shunter (TGK2 Kaluga) that has the correct wheelbase, and with a narrow hood it may well fit inside the Hymek body... but €140, and do I want to build a locomotive with a single powered bogie? It'd probably be sufficient to my needs, powerwise, but. May end up needing to make a completely new chassis for it, so it's something I'll have to think about.

 

But now this is rather gone astray from Heljan.

[bradfordbuffer]

6 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

Yeah it's not looking very promising for the Hymek. There are a couple of B-B locomotives that have the correct bogie wheelbase, but the pivot distance is much too long (DR 230/CD 371); close to correct pivot distance, and the bogies are a foot shorter (DB V80). The third option is a little 2-axle shunter (TGK2 Kaluga) that has the correct wheelbase, and with a narrow hood it may well fit inside the Hymek body... but €140, and do I want to build a locomotive with a single powered bogie? It'd probably be sufficient to my needs, powerwise, but. May end up needing to make a completely new chassis for it, so it's something I'll have to think about.

 

But now this is rather gone astray from Heljan.

Don't give up there may be a bogie for you somewhere 

[jjb1970]

18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

However if it falls flat on its face Hornby top management will need a scapegoat - whoever that happens to be.  Of course if it turns out to be a huge success it will no doubt be down to 'a bold decision by top management'.  And in reality whichever way it goes will sit with whoever signed off the business plan (I'm assuming they have one).

 

As I always say, every business needs someone young enough to know what they're doing and junior enough to be blamed if it all goes horribly wrong. That's why I value my underling Wei Jun so highly.

[boxbrownie]

So Heljan are pulling out from the U.K. TT market, don’t blame them TBH, they cite duplication of models following Hornby’s announcement.

Although I do like the little comment about the dealers being the backbone of the industry, are you listening Hornby? 

 

😉

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by boxbrownie

[TT-Pete]

17 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Continental tt motor and bogies only just squeeze in to uk 3mm scale bodies...ie class 25 etc.....Will need slimming down and shortening to fit tt120 if bogie dimensions correct

 

I bought several PIKO "Taurus" locos as donors when they first came out as they were only £45 and bogie wheelbase and wheel diameters "close enough", here's one I used to make a 3SMR class 73 kit:

 

 

 

 

I've also built a Baby Deltic and got a 25 and 74 in the works using the same chassis.

 

[Grovenor]

But aren't those 3SMR kits in 3mm scale?

[37114]

If it gives Heljan more time/money to focus on O /OO then it is good news, some more O gauge 1st Gen DMUs would be great. 

[britishcolumbian]

6 hours ago, TT-Pete said:

 

I bought several PIKO "Taurus" locos as donors when they first came out as they were only £45 and bogie wheelbase and wheel diameters "close enough", here's one I used to make a 3SMR class 73 kit:

 

 

That looks really good, but I do wonder if a 1:120 scale 73 would fit on the Taurus chassis? I've got one at hand (and a TRAXX) as well, they're both too new (and electric!) for my Hungarian project, and if I could find something British to put on them (ideally something that would have turned up at Pen Mill, so something based at Bath Road at some point?) then I'd happily do that. I guess I'll pull the TRAXX and Taurus apart and measure the dimensions of the innards, and go from there; for the time being anyways I'll be content with inaccurate bogies etc.

[mdvle]

On 14/10/2022 at 08:12, britishcolumbian said:

If they were as "excited about the possibilities" in TT then instead of cancelling they'd have started work instead on something else that's not in the Hornby 00 range. They're throwing their toys out the pram, basically.

 

Hornby have effectively poisoned the UK outline TT:120 well by announcing such a wide range of models and by refusing to sell through retailers.  Working on something else doesn't help if the retailers won't be interested in carrying it because 99% of the product is only available through Hornby.com ...

[britishcolumbian]

14 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Hornby have effectively poisoned the UK outline TT:120 well by announcing such a wide range of models and by refusing to sell through retailers.  Working on something else doesn't help if the retailers won't be interested in carrying it because 99% of the product is only available through Hornby.com ...

I disagree completely. I think the initial ("phase 1") range is perhaps slightly too small, to be honest, and more importantly, I think if they had asked retailers to stock an entirely new line, in large enough quantities to matter, and to *push the product*, I don't think many would have agreed to do it. By at least initially taking the burden upon themselves they're ensuring that things last longer than a year.

 

Someone elsewhere suggested that this is Heljan's way of admitting that their product was much too far away from ready to appear in time, now that a bigger name is involved; their "support the retailers" claim is just a convenient excuse.

 

Now please note that I'm not a "Hornby fanboy" in any way - I've been working in 1:120 scale for 20 years now and the only reason I'm here at all and planning to model British outline is the announcements from Peco and Heljan; Hornby's announcement was as much a surprise to me as anyone else, and a very welcome one. Going big right away with a (more or less) full range is the *only* chance a new scale can succeed.

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, britishcolumbian said:

I think if they had asked retailers to stock an entirely new line, in large enough quantities to matter, and to *push the product*, I don't think many would have agreed to do it.

 

Same things said when Peco announced their range - nobody would carry it.

 

Yet retailers did carry and sell the Peco stuff, and retailers did list and do pre-orders for Heljan's announced loco.

 

So that indicates your belief is incorrect.

 

Because retailers are in the end in the business of providing what their customers - both existing and potential new ones - want.

 

You may be right on the quantities - but that would simply mean any manufacturer would need to commit to having a warehouse of product for retailers to order from as they felt demand justified.

 

1 hour ago, britishcolumbian said:

Someone elsewhere suggested that this is Heljan's way of admitting that their product was much too far away from ready to appear in time, now that a bigger name is involved; their "support the retailers" claim is just a convenient excuse.

 

It is doubtful the OO market could support 2 brand new Class 31 models - the TT:120 market certainly can't.

 

Yes, Heljan's model was still in it's early stages - but Heljan is grateful for that because it means they won't be writing off a significant amount of money they would lose bringing a duplicate model to market in a brand new scale.

 

1 hour ago, britishcolumbian said:

Now please note that I'm not a "Hornby fanboy" in any way - I've been working in 1:120 scale for 20 years now and the only reason I'm here at all and planning to model British outline is the announcements from Peco and Heljan; Hornby's announcement was as much a surprise to me as anyone else, and a very welcome one. Going big right away with a (more or less) full range is the *only* chance a new scale can succeed.

 

Yet Heljan built up RTR 7mm/O without a full range...

 

The problem isn't the breadth of product announced, the problem is that it is all coming from 1 company.

[britishcolumbian]

2 minutes ago, mdvle said:

Yes, Heljan's model was still in it's early stages - but Heljan is grateful for that because it means they won't be writing off a significant amount of money they would lose bringing a duplicate model to market in a brand new scale.

Sure, but that still puts a question mark next to their assertion that they were "excited by the possibilities of TT". If they genuinely had been, they would've simply said okay, and designed something else that Hornby isn't soon likely to do (i.e. something not in Hornby's 00 range).

[mdvle]

10 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

Sure, but that still puts a question mark next to their assertion that they were "excited by the possibilities of TT". If they genuinely had been, they would've simply said okay, and designed something else that Hornby isn't soon likely to do (i.e. something not in Hornby's 00 range).

 

This is where being aware of what has been happening in the UK hobby market (in OO) for the last several years helps to explain things.

 

Hornby has seriously annoyed their retail network (cancelling confirmed orders due to "shortages" yet the product remains available from Hornby direct), deliberately duplicating a model (Terrier) because it was a "Hornby" product, deliberately trying to intimidate a new(ish) company to the UK market despite legal ramifications (Titfield Thunderbolt), etc.

 

With Hornby's large announcement, and its availability only through direct sales, retailers won't want to stock it anymore (because they can't offer 99% of the available product and won't want to help send potential revenue to Hornby who they are already annoyed with) and thus the financial risk to anyone else - Heljan or otherwise - has increased dramatically.  Thus it is no longer feasible - from a risk perspective - for Heljan to continue in TT:120 even with a different prototype.

Edited October 16, 2022 by mdvle

[britishcolumbian]

3 minutes ago, mdvle said:

This is where being aware of what has been happening in the UK hobby market (in OO) for the last several years helps to explain things.

Okay, thanks for the summary. It does help put things into perspective - but I still think Hornby's approach is more right than wrong. *If* they had been making the announcement without five years of work already having been done, with everything just being vapourware at the moment, then I'd say okay, maybe they shouldn't have announced the 31, since Heljan has already announced it, but as it is we don't know how far along they are with theirs - and they really didn't have a choice but to come out all guns blazing.

 

The flipside of that backstory, then, is: if the retailers are already annoyed with them, could they genuinely expect the retailers to want to stock TT at all? I can certainly see them sitting in the boardroom discussing that and concluding that no, that's too big a chance to take. Human beings can, after all, be incredibly petty, to the degree they'll go against their own interests.

 

Short form, I understand the opposition, but I also understand Hornby's reasoning (what we can deduce of it at the moment, anyways).

 

You know, overall this strikes me as another manifestation of the disease affecting British politics in general lately...

[frobisher]

2 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

Sure, but that still puts a question mark next to their assertion that they were "excited by the possibilities of TT". If they genuinely had been, they would've simply said okay, and designed something else that Hornby isn't soon likely to do (i.e. something not in Hornby's 00 range).

 

I think the simple fact that Hornby picked off not only Heljan's first project, but also their two follow-ups (I'm not ascribing malice per se on Hornby's part) would really knock the wind out of ones sails.  It's a simple commercial decision at that point.  There are sunk costs in getting the 31 CAD work to where they did, they're not getting it back, we don't know how far they got down the rabbit-hole they'd gone with the other two.  No matter how excited Heljan are about the new market, the chance to get in early is gone and the risk is now greater.  Better to wait and see how Hornby delivers on their promises and then see what a suitable response would/should be.

 

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, frobisher said:

 

I think the simple fact that Hornby picked off not only Heljan's first project, but also their two follow-ups (I'm not ascribing malice per se on Hornby's part) would really knock the wind out of ones sails.  It's a simple commercial decision at that point.  There are sunk costs in getting the 31 CAD work to where they did, they're not getting it back, we don't know how far they got down the rabbit-hole they'd gone with the other two.  No matter how excited Heljan are about the new market, the chance to get in early is gone and the risk is now greater.  Better to wait and see how Hornby delivers on their promises and then see what a suitable response would/should be.

 

Okay, that does make sense... but weren't Heljan's choices some of the most obvious ones? Which I mean I get, in terms of what how much life (variants) you can get out of a design... but then it suggests to me that Heljan's miscalculation was not expecting anyone bigger than themselves to get involved in British 1:120 (yet)?

 

That said... I see two possibilities:

 

1. There was discussion between the manufacturers in advance, agreeing to time their announcements of getting into the scale in a short time frame - they're all too close to each other in time to be a fluke,

 

or

 

2. Heljan (and Peco?) got wind somehow that Hornby have been working for some years now on 1:120, and wanted to get in on the action.

 

In either case Heljan's choices of locomotives Hornby produce in 00 were... silly.

 

In any event this has put me in the position that if Heljan do at some point decide to produce something in 1:120, I'll have to take an "I'll believe it when it's in my hand" attitude to them.

[jjb1970]

Hornby have clearly been putting serious resources into their TT venture for a long time and preparing for their huge big bang announcement. There's been rumours about it for years but I never took any of it seriously. If you want to effectively launch a new scale (no, TT 120 is not new, but it is new to UK RTR) then I think the Hornby approach of unveiling a large selection of models along with info on future phases is a sensible way to do it as it gives a little more confidence that the whole thing won't end up with one or two orphan models. Where that leaves Heljan is a commercial decision for them to take. They appear to have decided to avoid further risk and cut potential losses for now but I am sure whatever work they have done will be archived and might be revisited if British outline TT takes off.

[TT-Pete]

17 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

That looks really good, but I do wonder if a 1:120 scale 73 would fit on the Taurus chassis?

 

The good thing about the cast Taurus chassis is that is can be extensively chopped and filed, so quite probably it could be persuaded to fit, although the bogie wheelbase that is just about acceptable for 8'6" in 1:101 might be too far out in 1:120, but might then be closer to the 10' of a Hymek in 1:120. Hmmm. I've said this about a million times before, "I don't need any more projects" but I have got a spare Taurus chassis knocking about and Lincoln Locos do a Hymek, so......

Edited October 16, 2022 by TT-Pete

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

Okay, thanks for the summary. It does help put things into perspective - but I still think Hornby's approach is more right than wrong. *If* they had been making the announcement without five years of work already having been done, with everything just being vapourware at the moment, then I'd say okay, maybe they shouldn't have announced the 31, since Heljan has already announced it, but as it is we don't know how far along they are with theirs - and they really didn't have a choice but to come out all guns blazing.

 

The flipside of that backstory, then, is: if the retailers are already annoyed with them, could they genuinely expect the retailers to want to stock TT at all? I can certainly see them sitting in the boardroom discussing that and concluding that no, that's too big a chance to take. Human beings can, after all, be incredibly petty, to the degree they'll go against their own interests.

 

Short form, I understand the opposition, but I also understand Hornby's reasoning (what we can deduce of it at the moment, anyways).

 

You know, overall this strikes me as another manifestation of the disease affecting British politics in general lately...

One thing you have missed, or might not know about, is that Hornby is very firmly committed to increasing it's online sales and it has spent a lot of money on IT to help achieve that goal.  Compared with most of its other brands Hornby's model railway sales online are rather behind the curve.  So there is really nothing at all unusual about them introducing a completely new model railway range and only selling it online.  In fact in the light of their declared intentions it it could be said that they are doing exactly what they said they intended to do and it would be more unusual if they didn't sell it solely online.

 

Whether or not it will be sufficiently supported from an after sales vir ewpoint and for the selling of orders for a number of individual items are areas which thus far are not clear but are definitely areas where they need to do a lot.  Time will tell just how good they area t that when sales progress beyond the very easy bit of selling a trainset.

[Hroth]

6 hours ago, frobisher said:

I think the simple fact that Hornby picked off not only Heljan's first project, but also their two follow-ups (I'm not ascribing malice per se on Hornby's part) would really knock the wind out of ones sails.

 

Its not really a case of "picking off", more that Hornby have been working on a representative range of UK motive power for their venture into TT:120.  It would be surprising if there wasn't unwitting duplication of popular classes. In something as nascent as British outline TT:120, Heljan have taken a wise step back to avoid becoming involved in a war over models, though I suspect their 31/08/Austerity may have been more detailed and thus suffered in price comparisons.

 

I don't think Heljan should be discouraged from UK TT:120, if it takes off, there will be plenty of opportunities for them to produce interesting and useful locos that won't cut across Hornbys efforts. Hornby can't do everything!!!

 

Or anything to the standard that some folk demand...

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Hroth
Added thort, and miner spelin

[boxbrownie]

5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Hornby have clearly been putting serious resources into their TT venture for a long time and preparing for their huge big bang announcement. There's been rumours about it for years but I never took any of it seriously. If you want to effectively launch a new scale (no, TT 120 is not new, but it is new to UK RTR) then I think the Hornby approach of unveiling a large selection of models along with info on future phases is a sensible way to do it as it gives a little more confidence that the whole thing won't end up with one or two orphan models. Where that leaves Heljan is a commercial decision for them to take. They appear to have decided to avoid further risk and cut potential losses for now but I am sure whatever work they have done will be archived and might be revisited if British outline TT takes off.

I may have missed it in the melee, but have Hornby given a firm date for the actual release of the range?

 

I wonder just how far ahead they are considering some of the “product pictures” are obviously of 4mm models.

 

I suppose the proof will be eventually running on a TT track near you.

[Paul.Uni]

56 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

I may have missed it in the melee, but have Hornby given a firm date for the actual release of the range?

 

 

As far as I can tell from the individual product pages I've looked at, phase 1 & 2 models currently have release dates of Winter 22/23, Spring 23 or Summer 23.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Paul.Uni

[boxbrownie]

14 minutes ago, Paul.Uni said:

As far as I can tell from the individual product pages I've looked at, phase 1 & 2 models currently have release dates of Winter 22/23, Spring 23 or Summer 23.

So the first models around maybe Jan/Feb 2023 (being pessimistic), and one assumes the track will be out first along with any locos, or maybe they will just release “Train Sets” first?

 

Would be a good idea to get train sets out before Christmas.

[jjb1970]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

I may have missed it in the melee, but have Hornby given a firm date for the actual release of the range?

 

I wonder just how far ahead they are considering some of the “product pictures” are obviously of 4mm models.

 

I suppose the proof will be eventually running on a TT track near you.

 

Not sure there'll be much TT running near me........😉 Although, funnily enough the Land Transport Authority have produced static diecast models of MRT trains in the scale. Very nicely done too.