British outline 1:120 TT from Heljan

[Les1952]

I've now looked at the list of electric locos that Tillig have done and compared them with the list of locos that run on my Black Forest N-gauge layout Bregenbach im Schwarzwald.

 

E04 1-Co-1  yes

E18/E19 1-Do-1  yes

E44 Bo-Bo  yes

E44.5 Bo-Bo  no, but my Liliput N-gauge one is too fragile for service

E42 (ex- East German Bo-Bo 242) yes -

E40 (140) Bo-Bo yes, and in both liveries I'm running

E10.1 (110) Bo-Bo  yes 

E10.3 (110/112/114) Bo-Bo yes but I didn't find one of the four liveries I have

111 Bo-Bo  no

141 Bo-Bo  no

143 (East German 243) Bo-Bo yes and in far more versions.

150 Co-Co yes

103 Co-Co TEE  yes, and in more versions than I need

TRAXX MS  yes in more versions than I have, including the livery I have

Taurus  yes in 4 of the 7 liveries I have plus a lot more

Vectron yes and in all of the liveries I have plus a few that aren't available in N gauge from any manufacturer.

 

There is a good enough selection to model WEST Germany at any point.  The missing 111 and 141 may be in someone else's catalogue.  The 101 and 145 which I don't have are there in Tillig's range, though the 120 is missing.

Vectrons and Tauri are also available in Austrian and Belgian liveries.

 

A modern day freight yard anywhere in Germany/Belgium/Netherlands could be supplied with all the electrics it need.  I've not checked the diesels as Bregenbach only has two on the main line plus three small shunters (two 03 and an NGS Hunslet supplied to the brewery secondhand).

 

Given that the range is that extensive there must be enough modellers out there to support it.  It follows that there is a market out there for the track.  I repeat my earlier points that it doesn't matter to Peco what the UK naysayers say or do, they will make money out of it.  There is a world outside Britain, even if we don't like to admit it at times.

 

Les

 

 

 

 

[Les1952]

27 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Quite, but I was asking about if any RTR chassis would be suitable for 3D bodies - not chopping bits about.

Using RTR chassis will create more impetus for the scale/gauge than having to make up running gear from parts.

if there's one thing that's near the top of many modellers not-want-to-do tasks, it's making motorised chassis.

 

 

I've made many kit chassis, but now heading towards the CBA camp when it comes to making mechs.

 

Plenty of cheap Berliner Bahn available secondhand to experiment on.

 

Les

[britishcolumbian]

3 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

111 Bo-Bo  no

141 Bo-Bo  no

 

Les

 

 

 

 

Kuehn do a DB 110.1, 110.3, 111, and 140, alongside many other things... https://kuehn-digital.de/elloks.html

[britishcolumbian]

Also I *think* Beckmann did/do a 120 but I'm not 100%, DB is generally out of my scope of attention

[bradfordbuffer]

6 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

Plenty of cheap Berliner Bahn available secondhand to experiment on.

 

Les

Will original bb stock run on peco TT120 code 55 with Lima style pizza cutters....prob not! But time will tell.

[britishcolumbian]

1 minute ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Will original bb stock run on peco TT120 code 55 with Lima style pizza cutters....prob not! But time will tell.

Someone I know has ordered some of the Peco track; once he gets it, I'll look into this, we've all got old BTTB stock I'm sure...

[BernardTPM]

Lima N from the 1960s runs on the Peco N gauge code 55 that uses the same rail.

Edited June 15, 2022 by BernardTPM

[Nearholmer]

14 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

But I'm assuming we'll get another announcement , from a bigger player than Heljan. Peco have hinted at a Pannier tank (the 2251 profile suggests to me 3D printed bodies to fit a rewheeled Pannier chassis). I'd expect one further loco to be announced, and some promises for the future (eg a Prairie?)

My reading of all the heavy hinting is the same, or very similar.

 

I find all this interesting because I don’t presently own any modern r-t-r in 00 or N, my “main thing” is old, and old-style coarse-0 on three-rail track, but have been toying with the idea of a small layout based around modern, high-fidelity r-t-r, partly because I fancy doing a bit of hi-fi scenic work for the first time in ages. The obvious choices are a very small shunting thing in 0, or a city or branch terminus in 00. N has never appealed to me, it’s simply too small and coarse, but modern-quality TT, with near exact scale/gauge ratio might. What I have in mind wouldn’t be the start of a huge excursion into a new scale/gauge combination, I’d be more what  Steve Flint in his article calls an ‘essayist’, and a limited range of r-t-r trains would actually be quite a useful brake, keeping the thing within bounds.

 

(Before anyone asks: No, I wouldn’t touch 3mm/ft TT with a bargepole for these purposes. To me, the Triang end of the scale is fascinating retro stuff, so too much overlap with my taste in 0, and hi-fi on 14.2mm gauge is in the “life is too short” bracket.)
 

 

[andythenorth]

7 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

What I have in mind wouldn’t be the start of a huge excursion into a new scale/gauge combination, I’d be more what  Steve Flint in his article calls an ‘essayist’, and a limited range of r-t-r trains would actually be quite a useful brake, keeping the thing within bounds.

This ^

 

I have huge amounts of UK OO and US HO, and will never have a large scenic layout that would suit both, nor any real interest in building more than a very big bare-boards oval.

 

I also buy every new release that appeals, up to the limits of my disposable income, and these days there are *lots* of manufacturers producing good stuff at fair prices.

 

It's quite appealing to (1) do a small scenic layout and (2) keeping a lid on the 'must buy this' habit.

 

N-gauge never clicked for me, I've had a bit of a go.  TT might be the badger.

Edited June 16, 2022 by andythenorth

[Moria15]

Personally, I think the idea of TT:120 is an inspiration.  As an old and eyesight loosing retiree that currently models in N-gauge, that extra .54mm to the foot is actually a huge boost to be able to work with.   However, it's not so much more that it severely restricts what can be built in space I have available for layouts.   

 

I love the tagline by Heljan of no compromise.  I see the development of TT:120 as being a new start, with modern production and manufacturing of an equivalent of a ready to run 2mm finescale or P4 giving the options for all to be as fastideous as they want to be but in a scale/gauge combo that starts at being accurate.

 

Personally, I'm not a diesel person.. However.. I WILL be buying a 31 in order to support the new scale and also using it to get a feel for the sizes involved.

 

Obviously for some years, this may well be more of a modellers scale than a RTR scale, but this Heljan announcement is, I believe, a great start.

 

I think the next couple of months may bring some interesting announcements from other quarters as well :)

 

Graham

[andythenorth]

47 minutes ago, Moria15 said:

Personally, I'm not a diesel person.. However.. I WILL be buying a 31 in order to support the new scale and also using it to get a feel for the sizes involved.

That's convinced me to put a pre-order in at Rails 😉 

 

Not sure what pre-ordering at £0 for delivery late 2023 proves, but eh, money where mouth is 🙃

Edited June 16, 2022 by andythenorth

[eldomtom2]

10 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

At present we have no ex LMS support on the cards

 

Yes a MR 0-6-0 chassis would open up a few avenues - 3D printed bodies could give a range of loco  kits to fit

 

But I'm assuming we'll get another announcement , from a bigger player than Heljan. Peco have hinted at a Pannier tank (the 2251 profile suggests to me 3D printed bodies to fit a rewheeled Pannier chassis). I'd expect one further loco to be announced, and some promises for the future (eg a Prairie?)

 

Not sure I see enough room in there for a MR 0-6-0 (surely a 4F?). Heljan's Brush 2 needs a companioin - unless we read something into Sheffield allocated locos being chosen???

 

So far the activity of model manufacturers (in all scales) has generally not indicated a desire to go for depth rather than breadth.

[Phil Parker]

12 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

So far the activity of model manufacturers (in all scales) has generally not indicated a desire to go for depth rather than breadth.

 

Seriously? The scale has existed for all of two weeks and you are complaining that there isn't enough RTR yet? Give it time.

[Allegheny1600]

12 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Western Europe is a desert where TT is concerned.

Is that so?

https://kuehn-digital.de/elloks-archiv.html

https://kuehn-digital.de/dieselloks---bestellbar-.html

 

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-501971.html
 

http://www.beckmanntt.de/sites/e-lok-dateien/120_1_DB.html
 

https://www.piko-shop.de/en/artikel/ger-tt-e-lok-br-150-db-iv-35426.html

 

Just a small selection of various WEST German locos, notably of types that didn’t run into East Germany - so, who were these models made for?

[woodenhead]

8 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Seriously? The scale has existed for all of two weeks and you are complaining that there isn't enough RTR yet? Give it time.

I reckon 12-18 months will give a much clearer picture of the development cycles for TT - who's in, who's not and the direction of travel.

 

In fact I reckon by Warley there will be a few more models to choose from.

 

The problem we have now is the clamour for immediacy, want it now and want it all culture we've been driven to and it's feeding the frenzy around the Peco and now Heljan announcements.  My next foray outside of N will be GWR - I've got the stock but I may with sufficient announcements sell up and go TT for that, or there is an obvious Minories vibe with the 31 providing the Mk1 suburbans come along.

 

Of course I might end up with a TT model in my mitts and think, it's hardly a step up from N.

[bradfordbuffer]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

 

Of course I might end up with a TT model in my mitts and think, it's hardly a step up from N.

Well it's a step in the right direction!....one step nearer 3mm scale

[eldomtom2]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Seriously? The scale has existed for all of two weeks and you are complaining that there isn't enough RTR yet? Give it time.

No, you have completely misinterpreted me. My point is that model manufacturers tend to try and cover as many regions/eras as possible, even if that means each region has a limited selection of stock, rather than focusing on building up a specific area.

Edited June 16, 2022 by eldomtom2

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

 

The problem we have now is the clamour for immediacy, want it now and want it all culture

 

Where's my d*ltic?

 

Ah - oops - wrong thread....

[bradfordbuffer]

20 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Where's my d*ltic?

 

Ah - oops - wrong thread....

Good job spell check working OK!🙈

[AY Mod]

There is now a new Scale Specific subforum for 2.5mm scale / TT120 (keep the 3mm scale out of it!) content - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/369-25mm-scale-tt120/ Topics such as this which are specific to the manufacturer should remain where they are.

[britishcolumbian]

2 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

No, you have completely misinterpreted me. My point is that model manufacturers tend to try and cover as many regions/eras as possible, even if that means each region has a limited selection of stock, rather than focusing on building up a specific area.

 This is actually an issue with why North American TT struggles... 69 million railways to choose from, so how do you pick what to produce, when everybody wants something else - and a lot of things are very region-specific...

[eldomtom2]

9 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

 This is actually an issue with why North American TT struggles... 69 million railways to choose from, so how do you pick what to produce, when everybody wants something else - and a lot of things are very region-specific...

When it comes to steam, absolutely (this is even a problem in HO). But with diesels there are quite a few classes that were made in the thousands and used everywhere, which would seem the obvious place to start. Even steam has the USRA classes. The real problem, of course, is trying to start a new scale is a very steep climb.

[britishcolumbian]

23 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

When it comes to steam, absolutely (this is even a problem in HO). But with diesels there are quite a few classes that were made in the thousands and used everywhere, which would seem the obvious place to start. Even steam has the USRA classes. The real problem, of course, is trying to start a new scale is a very steep climb.

Yeah steam wasn't even coming to mind with that... for that you're on your own (I did work out some comparisons of what Canadian subjects could be built on German basis models, could get quite close to a CPR class R3 2-10-0 using a BR50/52 for example...)

 

But yes with diesels there are plenty that are near-universal, but unless one is modelling the 1990s or later, that's only the front of the train - still need a caboose at the end, and those again were specific to each railway. Luckily for us anyways, the west coast and in particular Vancouver/southwestern British Columbia seem to be the main node for TT on this continent, and there is a fair amount of interest in BC amongst German TT scalers, so hopefully that'll translate to giving manufacturers one point to focus on with Canadian Pacific (i.e. pick a CP subject and do whatever else you can do with it), the other railway with wider interest seems to be the Southern Pacific... (CP + SP makes an SD40 an obvious choice...).

 

Having a range of years/eras isn't a problem but I think there should, when starting at least, be a focus on a specific region, e.g. given Peco focussing on a GWR for their building kits, perhaps they could have co-ordinated with Heljan to produce a big diesel more common to Western Region... but that's just my 2d looking in through the window from outside. Still, sometimes I'm not as dumb as two short planks...

 

Anyways I'm really hoping British 1:120 works out well, not just for its own sake, but because its success might well spur some manufacturers to take a plunge into NorAm TT too.

[Jeff Smith]

12 hours ago, Moria15 said:

Personally, I'm not a diesel person.. However.. I WILL be buying a 31 in order to support the new scale and also using it to get a feel for the sizes involved.

Did this just for my own comparison, Class 31:-

1:76 = 8.96"

1:100 = 6.81"

1:120 = 5.675"

1:148 = 4.6"

[DY444]

On 14/06/2022 at 12:26, Gordon A said:

Let us hope the mechanisms are better than the 00 ones.

 

Strange remark.  My Heljan diesels are far better runners than any of my Hornby or Bachmann models, and they need less maintenance too.