British outline 1:120 TT from Heljan

[andythenorth]

10 minutes ago, Calnefoxile said:

Erm yes they do, I have some Hornby TT:120 stuff, albeit under the Arnold Label, which runs beautifully 😜😜😜

Oops, you are quite correct, I should have a word with myself because I also have Arnold TT:120 stuff.  🙃

[PaulRhB]

52 minutes ago, Weeny Works said:

Maybe Heljan have now decided that TT in the UK is Hornby's gamble to either succeed, or ruin on the company on (depending on your opinion).

 

43 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

The Heljan announcement was in June. Hornby could not possibly have conceived one loco, let alone an entire range + marketing etc, within just 4 months. So I believe it was within Hornby's pipeline.

 

 

Islesy confirmed it was in progress two years ago before he left. 
 

 

[wombatofludham]

At least there will be a "TT withdrawal bonus" with more Krone being freed up to invest in OO which, seeing as the TT announcement wasn't really going to convince me to scrap or sell several thousand pounds worth of OO stock, is a win win from my perspective.

More 86s and how about a complementary Class 310 EMU @61661?

[D9020 Nimbus]

4 hours ago, LaGrange said:

Hornby seems to have set a tangent for stock that doesnt run well, whereas Heljan stuff does. Wheres the odd bit? 

You mean like the class 17 with the "prototypical" tendency to break down? The HJ class 47s that were prone to mazak rot — a local dealer once showed me a drawer full of broken bodies? Possibly the class 15s that seem to burn out motors more than most? The 05 I had where the fitted couplings drooped so much that they fouled the track? (Fortunately, I use KDs.) 

 

Or perhaps the 009 L&B Manning Wardles, which are supposed to be able to go round 305mm radius curves but occasionally derail on Kato #6 points (718mm radius — they are the only locos I've ever had that derail on those points). Where the couplings are at the wrong height so they won't couple to anything else? One of which is prone to spinning it’s driving wheels on straight and level track?

 

If you check the archives, there were also issues with the Beyer-Garrats and the O2s. If you check the archives you'll find a lot more in this vein, I'm afraid…

[D9020 Nimbus]

3 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

 

Islesy confirmed it was in progress two years ago before he left. 
 

 

Simon Koehler said development started in 2017 — five years ago.

[AY Mod]

9 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Simon Koehler said development started in 2017 — five years ago.

 

If that's correct he wasn't there then (March 2014 - April 2018) so either his statement is incorrect or Hornby commenced the process before his involvement (which you wouldn't think from his announcement video).

[PaulRhB]

49 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Simon Koehler said development started in 2017 — five years ago.

The quoted post was “in progress” anyway 😆

 

Ultimately they did start before the Peco announcement, but they have again chosen to gazump others announcements rather than quietly drop them from stages 3&4, what does that say about their intentions? Heljan have sensibly decided we don’t need to join in this silliness and gone back to what they know sells viably.

It’s going to be interesting when the kids says after Boxing Day can we go down the modelshop to get some more stock to go with our trainset? Yes dear, only to find out there’s no Hornby stuff, some track and a couple of buildings by Peco and some trees and flock by WS. Just pre order something online which might turn up within a year of the advertised season? No, having Heljan and others onboard would have had a wider effect in getting TT scale products on the shelf to support it. They’ve chosen to go it alone and I don’t think the market is that dedicated to online yet at this level of technology, it needed something more to grab the online social media attention. 
Shame as I was looking forward to the later items Heljan announced but now we have a vague phase 3 or 4, not even a year from Hornby. 
 

oh well . .
 

[7013]

I think that this is a sensible move from Heljan. Nobody really knows if TT1:120 will take off. It’s a big risk from Hornby. Given the price of models today in all scales it will not be cheap, and how many people with established stock are going to go through wholesale change? I personally will not be giving TT1:120 a second glance, but good luck to those who embrace it, just hope that you are not buying into a lame duck. 

[Hroth]

Then again, by stepping back because of the duplication of the 31, Heljan give themselves time to think and if Hornby TT:120 does take off, they can re-enter the market at a later date with something they have already made in OO, that Hornby would never do, and would complement the 31 and the maroon mk1 carriages. The class 23!  Or some 128 parcels DMUs...

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Hroth
Missed a bit out

[rob D2]

Probably a good move from the bacon team. Hornbys meagre profit from sales I can see disappearing  entirely with this idea , now where’s my OO live steam set ?

[frobisher]

35 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Then again, by stepping back because of the duplication of the 31, Heljan give themselves time to think and if Hornby TT:120 does take off, they can re-enter the market at a later date with something they have already made in OO, that Hornby would never do, and would complement the 31 and the maroon mk1 carriages. The class 23!  Or some 128 parcels DMUs...

 

 

There's a wide-open goal for them with the Class 55 Deltic if they want to dip back in.  Guaranteed sales (if the scale takes off) for a prototype that Hornby don't have CAD for (that we know of).  The only risk would be if Accurascale became interested or if Bachmann are playing their cards very close to their chest (both unlikely at this stage).  The 20 is another good candidate (but Deltic first...).

 

 

 

 

[woodenhead]

20 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

 

There's a wide-open goal for them with the Class 55 Deltic if they want to dip back in.  Guaranteed sales (if the scale takes off) for a prototype that Hornby don't have CAD for (that we know of).  The only risk would be if Accurascale became interested or if Bachmann are playing their cards very close to their chest (both unlikely at this stage).  The 20 is another good candidate (but Deltic first...).

 

 

 

 

Hornby have a TTS Deltic so a TT version would be possible, ditto a class 20 all thanks to Lima and Limby.

 

If the quality of the TT locos is more RailRoad than hi-fidelity then Hornby have a heck of a lot of locos they can go at - 08, 25, 25, 31, 33, 35, 37, 40, 42, 47, 50, 55, 60 courtesy of their back catalogue.  Heljan getting in early with a 31 may pay off, or Hornby's may arrive first.  Whether Accurascale, Dapol or Bachmann have any interest in TT is probably not a concern to Hornby, it wasn't in OO, they would happily turn out a 47 spoiler for half the cost of a Bachmann or Heljan model under Railroad.  It's social media approach will ensure it drowns out the other manufacturers for those who don't know of them and it will likely be just the RMWeb type of modeller who might look to other manufacturers versions where there is a choice.

[Hroth]

18 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Hornby have a TTS Deltic so a TT version would be possible, ditto a class 20 all thanks to Lima and Limby.

 

Announced Jan 2021, due sometime next year...

 

Probably delayed to make loads of TT:120 stuff

 

[luke_stevens]

22 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Hornby have a TTS Deltic so a TT version would be possible, ditto a class 20 all thanks to Lima and Limby.

 

If the quality of the TT locos is more RailRoad than hi-fidelity then Hornby have a heck of a lot of locos they can go at - 08, 25, 25, 31, 33, 35, 37, 40, 42, 47, 50, 55, 60 courtesy of their back catalogue.  Heljan getting in early with a 31 may pay off, or Hornby's may arrive first.  Whether Accurascale, Dapol or Bachmann have any interest in TT is probably not a concern to Hornby, it wasn't in OO, they would happily turn out a 47 spoiler for half the cost of a Bachmann or Heljan model under Railroad.  It's social media approach will ensure it drowns out the other manufacturers for those who don't know of them and it will likely be just the RMWeb type of modeller who might look to other manufacturers versions where there is a choice.

 

I don't think it is is much about what tooling Hornby has but about what CAD work they have. 20, 25, 33, 35, 40, 42 and 55 are cases where there is tooling but no CADs (unless they have been measuring something for 00 thta hasn't been announced). Hornby talk about accuracy and fidelity; I can't see them going down a RailRoad route. Ben Ando wrote in ModelRail that the costs of doing a RailRoad isn't that much less that doing a "full spec" model unless the tooling already exists.  Now that Heljan have cancelled their 31 I just hope they consider something else or TT120 will be left to Hornby to set their own standards. A little competition would keep them on their feet.

 

L

[luke_stevens]

12 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Announced Jan 2021, due sometime next year...

 

Probably delayed to make loads of TT:120 stuff

 

 

I believe the problem was with the sounds. Something like the TTS chip and speaker combo couldn't produce a identifiable Deltic sound of sufficient quality.

 

L

[frobisher]

11 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Hornby have a TTS Deltic so a TT version would be possible, ditto a class 20 all thanks to Lima and Limby.

 

They have tooling, they don't have CAD for the tooling as it is too old.

 

11 hours ago, woodenhead said:

If the quality of the TT locos is more RailRoad than hi-fidelity then Hornby have a heck of a lot of locos they can go at - 08, 25, 25, 31, 33, 35, 37, 40, 42, 47, 50, 55, 60 courtesy of their back catalogue.

 

Of that list Hornby have tooled up the 08 (for which existing CAD would have been available to start the process), and have clear intentions for the 31 (ditto, and why we're talking about Heljan's cancellation), 50 and 60 (again existing CAD), and 37 and 47 (for which there will need to be CAD generated).  The last two are clearly a land grab by Hornby for what is "traditionally theirs" and where there are multiple other manufacturers with potential skin in the game.  The Limby stu

 

11 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Heljan getting in early with a 31 may pay off, or Hornby's may arrive first.

 

Given Heljan have cancelled their one my money's with Hornby there.

 

11 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Whether Accurascale, Dapol or Bachmann have any interest in TT is probably not a concern to Hornby, it wasn't in OO, they would happily turn out a 47 spoiler for half the cost of a Bachmann or Heljan model under Railroad.

 

 

That wasn't what I was saying. I was talking about Heljan's potential targets IF (and only IF) they decide to take a run at things again (once and if Hornby establish the scale).  It's down to what models Heljan have CAD for, that Hornby doesn't (YET - Hornby are tooling a 37 and a 47 from scratch).

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by frobisher

[woodenhead]

Ah, I'd been out all day walking in the Peak district so missed the Heljan cancelling the 31 bit and I don't follow social media either so no Facebook to tell me either.

 

If Heljan don't fancy slugging it out with Hornby then they know the market is going to be quite small for some time, I don't expect the other's will either in the short term as Hornby are going to want to claim anything and everything as theirs.

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

17 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Simon Koehler said development started in 2017 — five years ago.

 

16 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

If that's correct he wasn't there then (March 2014 - April 2018) so either his statement is incorrect or Hornby commenced the process before his involvement (which you wouldn't think from his announcement video).

 

In the WoR interview with @Howard Smith I think that Simon Kohler says he was in discussions about TT:120 before he returned to Hornby, so could it be he was thinking about it again from 2017 onwards?  Maybe it was part of the discussions / deal that brought him back?  I’m speculating, which I know I shouldn’t do, but I can imagine an interview type conversation in which SK is asked what he’d do to develop the business radically if he came back to Hornby, and he pulls out the TT presentation he tried in 2008.  It would mean the dates could stack up? (but I accept this is idle Friday speculation).

 

[Another explanation - not being funny - is that I’ve had many conversations with people post-lockdowns who can’t remember correctly events in recent years: not only have 2020 and 2021 merged into one (so much so I forgot I’d not done my 2021 tax return!!!!), but the few years before are a blur too, and “five years” or even a date now just means three or more, or ‘about then’]

 

Of relevance to Heljan, SK also mentions in passing in the interview that Ben Jones ( @61661 ) was someone else he spoke to, which is interesting to note (especially now Heljan have withdrawn).  I won’t try and guess what was said, but it doesn’t seem to have worked out for Heljan, sadly for them and their retailers.  
 

To be fair to Hornby, their progress with the 08 up to Engineering Samples does suggest that one was well underway before the Heljan announcement.  Just some thoughts, Keith.

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Denbridge]

22 hours ago, LaGrange said:

Hornby seems to have set a tangent for stock that doesnt run well, whereas Heljan stuff does. Wheres the odd bit? 

I've had plenty of duff Heljan models.

[The Stationmaster]

Hornby's involvement/thoughts about going back into TT go back quite along way.  they were sounding out their ideas with TT3/3mm scale modellers quite a time back.  I couldn't put a date on it without delving out some old lunch details (honest - but that would date when I spoke to someone who had been involved in those sounding out events but it always likely to be further back in time than first thoughts suggest).  So the thoughts had been there for some time although whether it was 3mm scale or 1:120 I don't know.

 

However if it falls flat on its face Hornby top management will need a scapegoat - whoever that happens to be.  Of course if it turns out to be a huge success it will no doubt be down to 'a bold decision by top management'.  And in reality whichever way it goes will sit with whoever signed off the business plan (I'm assuming they have one).

[RedgateModels]

1 hour ago, Denbridge said:

I've had plenty of duff Heljan models.

 

I've bought two - Teddy Bear and Kestrel. Kestrel was supposed to be a limited edition of 2000, then 4000. The class 14 was a bit of a dog that I could have put together better from the millions of parts. 

 

It all seems to me that Hornby are much further down the line that Heljan with TT-120. Makes sense for Heljan to pull their development when they realised they had duplicated Hornby's offerings. Same thing happened to Cavalex with the 91. It's a risk all manufacturers take.

[britishcolumbian]

54 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

Makes sense for Heljan to pull their development when they realised they had duplicated Hornby's offerings.

If they were as "excited about the possibilities" in TT then instead of cancelling they'd have started work instead on something else that's not in the Hornby 00 range. They're throwing their toys out the pram, basically. They're not in Continental TT either, because there's one dominant player there too (Tillig)... can't be coincidental

[frobisher]

1 hour ago, britishcolumbian said:

If they were as "excited about the possibilities" in TT then instead of cancelling they'd have started work instead on something else that's not in the Hornby 00 range.

 

As it was, Hornby have not only taken out their primary target, but the next two as well.  Sitting back and seeing what Hornby now actually delivers and on what time scale is definitely the best bet.  Not so much throwing toys out of the pram, but waiting to see if a pram is a good purchase first and thinking about what toys you'll put in there.

[britishcolumbian]

7 minutes ago, frobisher said:

Sitting back and seeing what Hornby now actually delivers and on what time scale is definitely the best bet

I'm patient and can afford to be. I'm definitely interested in a number of things they've announced, though not so much the flagship steam... but vaguely thinking about getting Mallard in order to turn it into Dominion of Canada. I don't *need* it, and it's very hard to justify in terms of my plans for UK modelling, but I want this to succeed and the price (as it stands at the moment) is decent. In the meantime I've emailed Worsley Works about them resizing their Cl. 122 kit, and am looking at Lincoln Loco's offering their shells in 1:120 and at present looking at my list of available Continental models to see what options I have for powering a Hymek.

 

I had put in a preorder on the Heljan 31 almost as soon as it was announced, and actually chose my area to model based on that. What Heljan have achieved with this in my case, anyways, is that if they do announce something new, I may not bother with preordering and just take a "believe it when I see it" attitude with them.

[bradfordbuffer]

29 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

I'm patient and can afford to be. I'm definitely interested in a number of things they've announced, though not so much the flagship steam... but vaguely thinking about getting Mallard in order to turn it into Dominion of Canada. I don't *need* it, and it's very hard to justify in terms of my plans for UK modelling, but I want this to succeed and the price (as it stands at the moment) is decent. In the meantime I've emailed Worsley Works about them resizing their Cl. 122 kit, and am looking at Lincoln Loco's offering their shells in 1:120 and at present looking at my list of available Continental models to see what options I have for powering a Hymek.

 

I had put in a preorder on the Heljan 31 almost as soon as it was announced, and actually chose my area to model based on that. What Heljan have achieved with this in my case, anyways, is that if they do announce something new, I may not bother with preordering and just take a "believe it when I see it" attitude with them.

Continental tt motor and bogies only just squeeze in to uk 3mm scale bodies...ie class 25 etc.....Will need slimming down and shortening to fit tt120 if bogie dimensions correct