Hornby cuts model shops' allocations of items due summer 2022

[MidlandRed]

40 minutes ago, McC said:

In the model making world what gets put into the container is exactly what has been specified. 

Are you speaking from the viewpoint of the experience of your own company or on behalf of every other (noting this is a response in a Hornby thread) 😉😁

[MikeParkin65]

39 minutes ago, McC said:

In the model making world what gets put into the container is exactly what has been specified. 

 

30 minutes ago, Graham_Muz said:

Couldn't agree more... 

 

 

...although don't dare call the myth that the / our factories in China under deliver 'nonsense' ...

I’m not questioning the integrity of either of you or the quality of products from either of your companies but how does this broad assertion tally with the long list of models on ‘Mazak rot’ list?

[cctransuk]

45 minutes ago, McC said:

In the model making world what gets put into the container is exactly what has been specified. 

 

That's a bit of a sweeping statement!

 

If true, who specified the contaminated mazak in at least a couple of manufacturers' models?.

 

Mazak rot proves that what is put into a container is not always what the commissioner specified.

 

CJI.

[HExpressD]

14 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

Are you speaking from the viewpoint of the experience of your own company or on behalf of every other (noting this is a response in a Hornby thread) 😉😁

I'm not sure it would be every other, we've seen pre-orders on the Hattons genesis thread cancelled as they were undersupplied by their factory and I assume Hornby have said the same before although not seen it myself but only been back into the hobby for a little bit. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by HExpressD
Missing word

[McC]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

That's a bit of a sweeping statement!

 

If true, who specified the contaminated mazak in at least a couple of manufacturers' models?.

 

Mazak rot proves that what is put into a container is not always what the commissioner specified.

 

CJI.

 

If you specify Mazak, you run the risk of contamination as it’s an alloy formulation, created to save money, over the higher zinc content zamak.  The simple solution is not to spec Mazak :) (It's worth honourable mention that Mazak is in fact a UK formulation, designed to be cheaper than Zamak (the higher quality zinc alloy)

 

As I'm sure Muz and most other manufacturers will confirm, there are a small number of extremely reputable, professional, highly skilled and experienced factories providing our models, and to disparage or bundle into 'not up to snuff 'cos chinese' is utter fallacy. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by McC

[phil-b259]

13 minutes ago, McC said:

 

As I'm sure Muz and most other manufacturers will confirm, there are a small number of extremely reputable, professional, highly skilled and experienced factories providing our models

 

I and many others don't dispute this.

 

13 minutes ago, McC said:

 

and to disparage or bundle into 'not up to snuff 'cos chinese' is utter fallacy. 

 

But equally the examples I posted above prove that the Chinese have in fact a track record of producing sub-standard goods. Just because our hobby hasn't been affected thus far doesn't  mean you can pretend that the Chinese don't have some history in not delivering what was ordered.

 

Of course thats not to say other countries don't have problems with sub-standard exports of course...

Edited September 26, 2022 by phil-b259

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, McC said:

 

If you specify Mazak, you run the risk of contamination, particularly if the factory you are using is cutting some cost corners. The simple solution is not to spec Mazak :) 

 

As I'm sure Muz and most other manufacturers will confirm, there are a small number of extremely reputable, professional, highly skilled and experienced factories providing our models, and to disparage or bundle into 'not up to snuff 'cos chinese' is utter fallacy. 

 

Couldn't agree more, but what has this to do with your original statement concerning what goes into containers?

 

You did not confine that statement to to specific manufacturers; (or, more exactly, commissioners).

 

Nor did you mention that the statement referred only to models NOT specified to include mazak.

 

My comment merely drew attention to the all-encompassing nature of your post which was, in all truth, lacking in precision.

 

Finally, I don't recognise the reference to disparagement in your final sentence as anything that I remotely said or suggested - perhaps you could enlighten me?

 

CJI.

[McC]

2 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Couldn't agree more, but what has this to do with your original statement concerning what goes into containers?

 

You did not confine that statement to to specific manufacturers; (or, more exactly, commissioners).

 

Nor did you mention that the statement referred only to models NOT specified to include mazak.

 

My comment merely drew attention to the all-encompassing nature of your post which was, in all truth, lacking in precision.

 

Finally, I don't recognise the reference to disparagement in your final sentence as anything that I remotely said or suggested - perhaps you could enlighten me?

 

CJI.

 

The factory will make exactly what you specify, and put that into the container. That's universally true, without exception, in my experience, and that of any other firm I've spoken to on the matter, in our industry. 

 

I do hope that's sufficiently precise? Mazak is by definition a legacy thing, and nothing at all to do with specifications, or China failing to deliver to specifications, as I said. If you specified Mazak, then thats EXACTLY what went into the container, no?

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

you can pretend that the Chinese don't have some history in not delivering what was ordered.

 

It's more correct to say they will deliver their interpretation of what has not been specified.

[McC]

4 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I and many others don't dispute this.

 

 

But equally the examples I posted above prove that the Chinese have in fact a track record of producing sub-standard goods. Just because our hobby hasn't been affected thus far doesn't  mean you can pretend that the Chinese don't have some history in not delivering what was ordered.

 

Of course thats not to say other countries don't have problems with sub-standard exports of course...

 

I'm sure google would yield similar examples from any major manufacturing nation, but not sure what that's to do with model railway manufacture, or indeed Hornby model shop allocations?

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Couldn't agree more, but what has this to do with your original statement concerning what goes into containers?

 

You did not confine that statement to to specific manufacturers; (or, more exactly, commissioners).

 

Nor did you mention that the statement referred only to models NOT specified to include mazak.

 

My comment merely drew attention to the all-encompassing nature of your post which was, in all truth, lacking in precision.

 

Finally, I don't recognise the reference to disparagement in your final sentence as anything that I remotely said or suggested - perhaps you could enlighten me?

 

CJI.

 

What is funny? You made a grossly inaccurate statement, then went on to accuse me of something I demonstrably did not say or imply, and then you try to laugh it off!

 

Not good enough - please justify your posts in the reasoned way that I have responded.

 

CJI.

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

Not good enough

 

No wonder you get people's backs up. But you've said you enjoy doing so; perhaps the outcome may be that you get ignored.

[McC]

4 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

What is funny? You made a grossly inaccurate statement, then went on to accuse me of something I demonstrably did not say or imply, and then you try to laugh it off!

 

Not good enough - please justify your posts in the reasoned way that I have responded.

 

CJI.

 

Five posts above CJI? 

Edited September 26, 2022 by McC
Number of posts changed :)

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, McC said:

 

The factory will make exactly what you specify, and put that into the container. That's universally true, without exception, in my experience, and that of any other firm I've spoken to on the matter, in our industry. 

 

I do hope that's sufficiently precise? Mazak is by definition a legacy thing, and nothing at all to do with specifications, or China failing to deliver to specifications, as I said. If you specified Mazak, then thats EXACTLY what went into the container, no?

 

No - if I specify (or specified) mazak, and the factory actually put contaminated mazak in the container - which I would be unlikely to discover for some time - this would be / was China failing to deliver to specifications.

 

Why not simply concede that your original statement was overstating the case?

 

CJI.

[McC]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

No - if I specify (or specified) mazak, and the factory actually put contaminated mazak in the container - which I would be unlikely to discover for some time - this would be / was China failing to deliver to specifications.

 

Why not simply concede that your original statement was overstating the case?

 

CJI.

 

If you specify Mazak (not that you would as it's not been around for decades) then why would the factory not put that in the container? Who is to say its contaminated? I'm quite sure you can't shop for 'contaminated zinc alloys'

 

Perhaps you might concede your picking a nit, rather than accepting that the factory does indeed, put exactly what is specified into what it specified?

Edited September 26, 2022 by McC

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

No wonder you get people's backs up. But you've said you enjoy doing so; perhaps the outcome may be that you get ignored.

 

Why is it unacceptable / getting people's backs up to point out that an emphatic statement was inaccurate?

 

It would seem that I am not the only person who noticed this.

 

I have made my point, and am content to leave matters for others to make their own judgement.

 

CJI.

[Darius43]

I’m not entirely convinced that CJI enjoys this hobby.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[ruggedpeak]

1 minute ago, McC said:

 

I'm sure google would yield similar examples from any major manufacturing nation, but not sure what that's to do with model railway manufacture, or indeed Hornby model shop allocations?

The original point was made further up that perhaps short-shipping or short-manufacture might be a factor in Hornby allocations or lack thereof. A not unreasonable assertion given the perceived oddities of Hornby allocation as perceived by customers and some retailers.

 

As for the suggestion that model railways aren't affected by manufacturing issues, why did I (and many others) have to buy a replacement body for our Dapol 68's due to the livery being misapplied? Or is it the case Dapol signed off a wonky livery? Hardly the first example on RMWeb of customers looking for manufacturers/commissioners to resolve a factory defect on their model (as in not a one off Friday special but a consistent error repeated on the same product).

[Porcy Mane]

1 hour ago, McC said:

In the model making world what gets put into the container is exactly what has been specified. 

 

Including 24.75mm axles ?  😉   Yep, I know things have changed since the Cemflo. 🙂🙂

🙂

 

 

[cctransuk]

22 minutes ago, Darius43 said:

I’m not entirely convinced that CJI enjoys this hobby.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

Oh, but he does - and has the product of over sixty years participation to prove it.

 

What CJI does not enjoy is anyone making wild, inaccurate statements, which they cannot / will not substantiate.

 

CJI. 😁

[McC]

Pretty sure any wild points made have been. 

[Porcy Mane]

9 minutes ago, McC said:

Pretty sure any wild points made have been. 

 

and wild oats sown.  🙂

[Andy Hayter]

We seem to have strayed from quantity into quality and the topic raised was very clearly about quantities not being available.

[jjb1970]

Quantity, quality and comments about China now it seems.

 

On quantity, everything I have heard leads me to believe that the factories deliver what has been ordered.

 

On quality, there will be an acceptance criteria which the factories have to deliver. However that will relate to the responsibilities of the factory, not errors arising from what the factory has been instructed to produce.

 

In both cases, any disagreements are for the parties to the contract to resolve.

 

On China, you don't need to be the most perspicacious person to discern issues with China, that is true of every country I can think of. However to judge a country according to its less commendable traits is no more or less silly than judging it only by its most admirable aspects. Yet many judge China according to its worst while ignoring or minimizing the negative traits of other countries. I have spent a lot of time in China and done an awful lot of work with their ship and engine building sectors. Are they perfect? No, there are dodgy operators just like anywhere else. There are also very high quality outfits, many I would call world class. I honestly never had any experiences working with Chinese companies that I didn't have in Europe, America or Korea and have far more positive than negative memories and ongoing experiences.

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

That's a bit of a sweeping statement!

 

If true, who specified the contaminated mazak in at least a couple of manufacturers' models?.

 

Mazak rot proves that what is put into a container is not always what the commissioner specified.

 

CJI.

That comes back to the specification.  If something is specified in detail to the factory then that is what they are being contracted to supply.  If the detail is not specified and someone for example uses a generic trade term (e.g. mazak) then the factory has room within the specification to use a material which conforms with that trade name but might well not reach a particular quality standard.

 

One of the first things you learn on any quality or specification training course is that you will get what you ask for and if you don't specify exactly what you want you might get something which is not quite the same.  There is the well known (to some of us) story about a Japanese company which took on a contract which specified that at least 97% of the items being ordered should fully comply with the specification.  The factory accordingly supplied 3% of the items as not wholly complying with the specification with the other 97% being 100% compatible with spec - that was exactly what had been specified.

 

The secret is invariably in the detail and extent of the specification because 'quality' of itself is a meaningless word.  For example the usual mechanism for model locos manufactured in China is to use a series of moulded gear wheels to transmit the drive from the motor to the axles with all  driving axles driven on a steam outline model.  That is what you will get unless you specify worm and gear drive onto one axle with the drive transmitted to other wheelsets by coupling rods.  Similarly if a metal is used to add weight etc to a model it should be specified as being of a certain quality or composition otherwise the factory will no doubt use what it can get at 'best price'.

 

It ain't rocket science but it is crucially important that the customer is both careful and exact in their specification and that they carefully check  and reject any CADs, EPs, livery samples, and so on which do not meet their spec.