Bachmann Autumn 2022 Announcements inc. Farish headlines

[TomScrut]

16 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

This is the one I probably have the most confusion with, because the high markup and CC appear like 2 barriers to entry. It seems counterproductive to selling volumnes of this wagon when you can go on ebay and get the same wagon at an average of £50

 

The point is that if there was another layer of markup on this then it would be cost prohibitive.

 

If they sell them for a lower markup then they would probably rather do something else that will make more money for them (with the working captial they need to use for this run)

 

16 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

when you can go on ebay and get the same wagon at an average of £50 (judging by the sold listings, that price hasn't inflated yet).

 

In the case of the red ones, yes. Grey ones maybe not so much.

 

Bear in mind that a lot of these sales might be somebody buying a one off pair just to put in a train they have had for the last 8 years. If I had a rake of the original red ones, I'd probably cough up for a grey pair to go with them.

 

Also potentially to run with the Revolution IPAs, although I don't know if these prototypically run in the same train. Good timing nonetheless in this regard.

 

16 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

There are 2 variations for that wagon, so thats less tampo moulds/prints required than a typical locomotive

 

We are talking assembly costs, not tooling costs.

 

16 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

the only thing remaining large cost is parts assembly.

 

That's the whole point of the conversation! Take their word for it or not, I believe Bachmann have said these are very labour intensive to make (they definitely did about the JPA). In some respects, the locos are pretty simple, especially a 90 as it doesn't really have loads of fitted detail (because the prototype is pretty bland in that respect)

 

16 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

Potentially? I'll admit to being naive as to how much that labour cost would factor into the final overheads for a product.

 

It's more that if (for example) labour cost was 50% of the wagon cost 10 years ago, and 75-80% of the cost now, I expect they will be more interested in minimising the time spent making the wagon.

Edited August 8, 2022 by TomScrut

[Delta_Who]

Fair enough then. Some points I hadn't considered/overlooked, so consider me humbled.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Delta_Who

[PaulRhB]

11 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

Fair enough then. Some points I hadn't considered/overlooked, so consider me humbled.

I don’t think you need to be humbled, 😉 The costs aren’t published because of commercial sensitivity so it relies on those in similar fields or in the know a bit to share why. 
The only problem is when people refuse to accept that info because they want to pay the prices of 1995 etc. 

Give it another twenty years and the prices of today will be seen by some as where we should be then! 😆

[TomScrut]

3 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

so it relies on those in similar fields or in the know a bit to share why

 

For the record I am neither so my thoughts might be a complete load of rubbish! It just makes logical sense to me.

 

3 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

The only problem is when people refuse to accept that info because they want to pay the prices of 1995 etc. 

 

Or that going back to making loads more will bring the price back down to £60 a loco. The people don't exist to make them in those numbers I don't think. Especially with the extra detail we want now.

[PaulRhB]

4 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

For the record I am neither so my thoughts might be a complete load of rubbish! It just makes logical sense to me.

 
The cost structure can also be radically different between manufacturers due to the setup of the process, who actually makes it and in some cases shareholders. Accurascale no doubt have a fair insight as they employed Graham Hubbard and Paul Isles from two major competitors but they aren’t going to return the info for free either via us 😉

 

No amount of moaning will have an effect, these are the prices they’ve set and we make our decision on if that represents value for money. If enough accept it then it will continue, if not then they will either decide to move to other markets or fade away. As Pete Waterman unwillingly showed with JLTRT starting with a fortune doesn’t guarantee success either so it’s not the big margins many think and these assumptions are usually based on very selective prices from one part of the process that someone has published in mid rant 😉

[Dunsignalling]

23 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

For the record I am neither so my thoughts might be a complete load of rubbish! It just makes logical sense to me.

 

 

Or that going back to making loads more will bring the price back down to £60 a loco. The people don't exist to make them in those numbers I don't think. Especially with the extra detail we want now.

Exactly.

 

Another reason individual locos sold in much higher numbers back in the day was most people had only one of each type but a lot more people had train sets.

 

Having more than one (if you could afford it) was further discouraged by most things being produced with but one number/name, which changed once in a decade if one was lucky. "Britannia" and "Winston Churchill" carried on for well over twenty years before alternatives put in an appearance.  When Hornby redeveloped their Lightweight Bulleid for Chinese production, there was a choice of four just in the first set of releases.

 

If diesel or electric, there might have been a choice of green or blue, but without both necessarily being available concurrently. 

 

John

Edited August 8, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[TomScrut]

3 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

The cost structure can also be radically different between manufacturers due to the setup of the process, who actually makes it and in some cases shareholders.

 

Yep, even the factory rate is massively dependant on several factors. Whether the people using the factory own it or rent it, and whether it's owned outright (i.e. is there a mortgage to pay), along with where it is (local labour rates, energy etc.) although I don't know how that works in China, I have heard a lot of workers move around after where the money is best.

 

That's before you have shareholders needing a certain return from every £/$ tied up.

[rembrow]

I was tempted by the STVA 2 wagon set in grey, but balked at the price. I didn't realise that Revolution were producing 4 wagon STVA covered sets in grey and found they were still available to pre order at Rails  so have gone that route, with a 4 wagon set for the price of 2 Bachmann wagons. While there I also found that 2 wagon flat and flat with stakes, in STVA grey were still available, with the proposed Cartic 4 wagon sets also planned for STVA grey. The pricing by Accurascale, Revolution and Cavalex is disproving the argument that the current pricing by Bachmann is mainly due to increased production costs in China, unless Kader is pricing significantly higher than the factories that those makes are using. They also probably operate on lower overhead UK costs.

 

[TomScrut]

46 minutes ago, rembrow said:

The pricing by Accurascale, Revolution and Cavalex is disproving the argument that the current pricing by Bachmann is mainly due to increased production costs in China

 

46 minutes ago, rembrow said:

They also probably operate on lower overhead UK costs.

 

It doesn't disprove anything. Bachmann will have higher overheads than those 3 companies combined for a start I think.

 

46 minutes ago, rembrow said:

unless Kader is pricing significantly higher than the factories that those makes are using.

 

That is more likely the case. I presume that across Kader they have enough demand to keep factories busy all of the time. Therefore Bachmann Europe will probably have to fight with other Kader subsidiaries for build slots and so the pricing, especially for what is probably smaller batches, needs to be worth their while (as doing the work is opportunity lost elsewhere)

 

https://shop.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=258_292_1058

 

Look at that for example, $459 before tax, so £380 excl VAT and so £456 after VAT for a DCC sound electric loco. I haven't spent a long time searching here so I don't know if this is a flawed example.

 

Therefore the likelihood is (in my opinion) that the margin for Kader needs to be similar across all ranges or they wouldn't bother doing the UK stuff (unless they had free factory slots) as they'd rather make stuff for the US market and make more money.

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by TomScrut

[Paul.Uni]

GBRF/HNRC 08 diesel loco 08818/No. 4 ‘Molly’ in OO and N gauges are the latest Bachmann Collectors Club models.

 

Full details: https://news.Bachmann.co.uk/2022/09/new-limited-edition-models-unveiled-at-Bachmann-collectors-club-event/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=new-limited-edition-models-unveiled-at-Bachmann-collectors-club-event

[andyman7]

On 08/08/2022 at 07:04, rob D2 said:

The 45 they finally brought out with the sealed beam version - they seem to have hung around and been discounted. With competition of Heljans 45/1 , I think the chances are super small

They did several numbers - only some have hung around. Try looking for a sound-fitted Lytham St Annes...

[big jim]

16 hours ago, Paul.Uni said:

GBRF/HNRC 08 diesel loco 08818/No. 4 ‘Molly’ in OO and N gauges are the latest Bachmann Collectors Club models.

 

Full details: https://news.Bachmann.co.uk/2022/09/new-limited-edition-models-unveiled-at-Bachmann-collectors-club-event/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=new-limited-edition-models-unveiled-at-Bachmann-collectors-club-event

definitely be ordering one of those 08s tomorrow, never actually seen it in real life but it’s one for my GBRf collection

[brushman47544]

On 03/09/2022 at 21:02, andyman7 said:

They did several numbers - only some have hung around. Try looking for a sound-fitted Lytham St Annes...

I wonder how much depends on the real locos’ popularity and visibility in the different regions each is sold. Namers seem to do better too.