Should we whitewash history on our layouts?

[DCB]

Its a difficult one, people have differing views, and some are remarkably intolerant of anyone else's view.   Was there racism on the US narrow gauge in the 1950s and 60s?   It's hard enough to explain to a kid of colour that there are no people like him in historical photos because there were no people his colour around back then, or to explain the harm the Slave Trade did to communities in my area which relied on the wool trade which was seriously damaged by imported cotton products.    You can sidestep issues by not modelling the contentious segments, or if you really want someone to hit you in the mouth then exhibiting an N gauge model of Auschwitz with a smoke unit is probably a good starting point.  I model 1957-62 UK West country and sidestep most of these issues, I hardly think a 1:76 scale "Wills Capstan" Fag advert will lead many people to start smoking, My son thought it was funny to call our coal merchant R.Sole when he was 10, and I have a Ban the Bomb symbol somewhere and "Man Untied" on a bridge abutment (Reference to Manchester United) but really isn't this stuff bette left to everyday life, not the escapism I rely on my railway for.

[Chris M]

8 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Given my inclination toward 1970s Black Country environs there was a lot of racist graffiti and NF symbolism around. Would I choose to reproduce it? Not a chance, I wouldn't wish to explain such hatred to a minor, modelling it would be no better than saying it.

I lived in the Black Country in the 1970s and whilst there was the odd NF symbol I wouldn't say it was a big feature of the time. There were lots of references to the local gangs of "boot boys" - i.e. "Quinton mob rule" . Whilst these groups did behave in a racist way and were made up of very nasty people most of the grafitti seemed to be about claiming territory rather than racist remarks.

[Chris M]

I guess a layout representing the current era should have homeless people hanging around the station. Something not really seen in earlier periods.

 

On my layouts I like to have nice things. For instance its always summer on my layouts and never winter. Unless I was specifically trying to make a point I would only include happy things on my layout. Throughout the history of the world there always been bad people around doing horrible things, I don't see any need to commemorate them.

[Johann Marsbar]

My memories of 1970's graffiti were that it was predominantly Football related - particularly in the likes of Manchester/Liverpool - though fairly random names of people were common as well.

The road bridge on Princes Street over the lead into Ipswich Lower Yard did have "Stop US war in Vietnam" on it - subsequently painted out, but still visible today if you look hard enough.

The retaining wall at the back of the former Cattle Docks in the same general area, and clearly visible from Ipswich Station did have "Hands off Caroline" (the Pirate Radio station) painted on it in the late 60's (?) and that lasted well into the late 70's/early 80's before being covered over with more random "modern" graffiti.  There was another Caroline related one on Spring Road viaduct on the Felixstowe Branch, which was joined in 1977 by a memorable "Stuff the Jubilee" that soon got painted out, but caused a stir locally at the time!

[TEAMYAKIMA]

On a similar subject ..............................

 

For Twickenham MRC's 50th anniversary exhibition in 2011, I made a typical 1961 layout. 

 

It was Tri-ang TT and was a typical 'kitchen table' layout. It featured such things as a May 1961 Railway modeller (the month the club was formed), an old fashioned tea cup with a half eaten digestive biscuit and graph paper, pencil and protractor with track plans.

 

 

It was well received, but on the only other time it was displayed I was confronted by an angry visitor who asked/demanded that I remove the (fake) cigarette from the ash tray as it would encourage his 3 year old son, who was in his arms, to take up smoking.

 

 

[Hal Nail]

9 hours ago, AY Mod said:

modelling it would be no better than saying it.

 

Same applies to W*lves. I do hope this is reproduced in full tho?

Boing boing!

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Hal Nail

[Kris]

I'm strongly of the opinion that:

1. history should never be hidden, however distasteful. - The more we hide history or hide from history the greater the risk of historical mistakes being made again. 
2. actions of historical characters need to be viewed in the context of the time, not the context of today*.
3. we should be strong enough to explain to others why some parts of history and the actions of historical individuals / societies are not acceptable today.  - This could be via text or speech. **

* The things we do today may be considered (by future generations) to be immoral or hateful, yet to our eyes they are acceptable - The same is true of our forefathers

 

** If I had a layout that needed obvious visual references to discrimination, racism or hate to set the scene and time period, I would include them. I would however, if displaying the layout, put a notice (A TRIGGER WARNING?) on the layout to explain why these items were on the layout and how they were being used to set the context but that they were also actions that are not acceptable today. 

[Chris M]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

 

Same applies to W*lves. I do hope this is reproduced in full tho?

Boing boing!

 

Now that is my kind of graffiti! My favourite era is 1968 for a good reason. It was the last time the mighty Baggies lifted the FA Cup. Jeff Astle scored in every round that year.

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

 

Same applies to W*lves. I do hope this is reproduced in full tho?

Boing boing!

 

 

That's the problem once you get past Wednesbury.

 

2 hours ago, Chris M said:

local gangs of "boot boys" - i.e. "Quinton mob rule"

 

Quinton is a bit posher than Whitmore Reans, Heathtown and Bushbury; did they wear slippers?

[Morello Cherry]

  

5 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

So why would you include references to segregation on an O Winston Link diorama over any other period layout in that area? There was nothing featured in the photos that spoke against or for it, I don’t see why inserting a reference would be relevant to the scene?

I think we are associating things for our own message in that case and it actually detracts from the subject if it has to be referenced in everything just because it was in an area covered by the laws. Surely every traction layout of New Orleans or model of a Saturn V on its pad would need to reference it also on that basis? 
 

Minatur Wunderland has an education mission because it’s a public attraction but that doesn’t mean everyone displaying a model needs to include it. 
Winston Link was capturing the train with stylised backgrounds why does that need to carry a deeper message? Not all art or music has to carry a deeper meaning, some is just for fun. 
O Winston Link took the photos because of his passion for the train and the science of photography, surely talking about that is sufficient. If not where do we stop associating with things like the abject poverty many of all classes lived in in some of those areas? 
Sorry, I’m all for educating about the horrors of the past, and indeed present, but I don’t see how singling out a photographer who happened to operate in the region is a useful talking point to start from. A display about the Jim Crow cars would be far more relevant and deliver a focused message rather than trying to crowbar it into any display. It’s not everyone’s duty to include such subjects in their model but if they do include something that references it then it may be appropriate to explain why, that’s their choice though and different from deliberately displaying offensive material. 
If someone does display it without context then it may be appropriate to talk to the show organiser. If someone came up to me and said “I think you should remove the Winston Link diorama because it doesn’t reference the racism in that period” I would politely decline, but if someone pointed out that there was an offensive slogan without some context then I might see fit to challenge them and possibly ask it be removed from show. 
 

 

 

 

That wasn't what I said. And it wasn't a criticism of Link but rather the people who unthinkingly ape his style.

 

I dislike the attempts by some modern photographers to recreate Link photos, posed 1950s shots etc which airbrush racist segregation out of the equation.  It is akin to representing Nazi era Germany and airbrushing out antisemitism, or representing the Communist bloc without reflecting on the horror of the purges. (I will happily lay my cards on the table that my family were victims of the Nazis and the Communists).

 

I find it ironic that people will rivet count and correct historical inaccuracies when it comes to the trains, but have no problem with an airbrushed historical context that leaves out the negatives. If you want to recreate the past then you recreate it warts and all or not at all, anything but a sanitised, romanticised misty eyed vision of the past that sweeps the negative aspects under the carpet.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Morello Cherry

[Bernard Lamb]

11 hours ago, brightspark said:

Don't forget that Germany has severe restrictions on displaying that particular political symbol.

I find that German modellers tend to avoid that period of unhappiness and guilt so tend to model either pre 1905 or post 1950. 

 

Not as severe as some people try to claim. Accurate depictions are allowed for historical research. I would not model certain periods and or locations but do find local photos of where and what I model of interest. This has appeared on the forum before with no hostile comments. Just a few people from the neighbourhood at work and my mother in law knew most of them.

Bernard

 

[Stubby47]

3 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

If you want to recreate the past then you recreate it warts and all or not at all, anything but a sanitised, romanticised misty eyed vision of the past that sweeps the negative aspects under the carpet.

 

I model in 00, so track gauge is a compromise. I have no defined era on my layouts,  allowing me to run early GWR to blue diesel.

As such, I can also choose which aspects of history to ignore, including anything negative or controversial. In my opinion,  they don't need to be added, so I don't. 

 

It's my train set.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Stubby47

[SM42]

Surely some of the more unpleasant aspects of life in the past were so endemic that they often went un noticed. 

 

As a child of the 70s and 80s  the racism that masqueraded as comedy in those days was normal. 

 

We went about our business without giving it a second thought. 

 

Graffiti, racist or otherwise  passed us by largely, unless it recently appeared where previously there was none.  Even then it probably got no more than a second glance and a tut. 

 

Do we need to portray it accurately on a layout for context,?

 

I would suggest not. 

 

The trains are the focus. The setting sets the scene. 

It doesn't have to be completely sugar coated, but neither do we need to see all the warts

 

We can look on the past with our rose tinted specs, but that doesn't mean we are denying it. 

 

Most of us have already forgotten a lot of the mundane everyday from last week. What chance from 40 odd years ago?

 

 

 

Andy

[Morello Cherry]

14 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

 

I model in 00, so track gauge is a compromise. I have no defined era on my layouts,  allowing me to run early GWR to blue diesel.

As such, I can also choose which aspects of history to ignore, including anything negative or controversial. I my opinion,  they don't need to be added, so I don't. 

 

It's my train set.

 

Which was the first thing I said. It is your train set and you can do what you like.

[bmthtrains - David]

Something to coincided here is the difference between ‘the past’ and ‘history’ - the former can never be reached, while the latter is a product of the present. 
 

Any view of the past is inevitably shaped and interpreted through the lenses of today, so whatever choices a modeller makes are done so in the context of what is or isn’t deemed acceptable today.

 

David 

 

 

[HonestTom]

If you want to portray an idealised version of history, then that's up to you, particularly on a home layout. It's really no one else's business.

 

The temptation with history is to accentuate aspects of it that stand out as unusual or distinctive, but that might not be representative of the actual era. Would the negative aspects of the era actually be present in your setting? For instance, the British Union of Fascists had plenty of support in the 1930s, but only for a fairly brief period and only in some parts of the country. So they were definitely a thing that existed, you'll read about them in any history of Britain in the twentieth century, but would it be representative of the era to have blackshirts on, say, the Pendon Vale Scene? Probably not. The risk is that portraying the negative side of history can be as inaccurate as seeing it all through rose-tinted glasses.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Morello Cherry said:

If you want to recreate the past then you recreate it warts and all or not at all, anything but a sanitised, romanticised misty eyed vision of the past that sweeps the negative aspects under the carpet.

I agree, but I think one of the issues with this is the nostalgia that informs a lot of railway modelling, so that people often create a version of the past that is slightly fictionalised and better than it was in reality.

 

 I also agree with earlier posts discussing the difference between a museum diorama and a normal model railway at an exhibition. With the latter, it’s generally understood by visitors that contentious material might be included for educational reasons, with interpretation/explanations/warnings as appropriate, and the rest of the museum exhibition can also be designed to provide an appropriate setting for this. In a model railway exhibition the builder’s motivations for including these elements could be less clear, the surrounding exhibition is filled with other layouts on a range of disparate themes and the visitors’ typical expectations are slightly different.

 

Working in museums has prompted me to think about whether I could make some of my layouts more educational and better interpreted when they’re exhibited, although for most of mine this would generally be more to do with the social and technical history of the industries depicted as none of my current layouts are particularly well-placed to address any especially contentious topics.

[Titan]

I model the 1970's and my stations include the contemporary BR posters featuring Jimmy Saville.

[John M Upton]

9 minutes ago, Titan said:

I model the 1970's and my stations include the contemporary BR posters featuring Jimmy Saville.

 

I was initially reluctant to include period posters on my early 1980's work because of the Jimmy Saville appearing on them but as it was in N and they were so small, you couldn't see him anyway. 

 

One thing I will not have under any circumstances on any layout I do though is graffiti, I despise graffiti vandals (please can the media stop calling them 'artists', they are criminals causing deliberate and illegal damage, plain and simple) and the idiotic cretins who spray their pointless scribblings here, there and everywhere are often putting their own worthless lives and the lives of innocent people at risk in order to do so.

 

Find them, nick them, lock them up and throw away the key, all of them!!!

[Right Away]

Makes you wonder how those responsible for the awful daubing on bridge girders do not succumb to falls or risk being chopped up by a passing train.

[009 micro modeller]

15 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

there always seem to be a number of WW2 scenarios which veer towards the glorification of the Third Reich.

I think I’d always want to avoid having anything on a layout that appears to be glorification of something like this. Tying into my other post about nostalgia, model railways are generally built for fun, or at least assumed to be built for fun, so I think there’s a risk that anything that’s included can potentially be seen as glorification.

 

A few examples, from memory:

 

I remember a few years ago on another forum where somebody was building an Eritrean narrow gauge layout and specifically stated his intention to avoid depicting any Italian fascist symbols, even though they were accurate for the period depicted. This seemed fair enough as clearly the point of the layout was not to educate about that but to model the rarely-modelled Eritrean NG prototype. Also in this case I think the builder was from Eritrea himself, perhaps making it even more understandable that he would not wish to go over this particular aspect of history as part of what is meant to be a relaxing hobby.

 

The 7mm ‘Hospital Gates’ hospital railway layout from a few years ago, which I thought was excellent overall. When this was covered in Railway Modeller, the article started by explaining why that particular prototype theme was chosen, and very clearly stating that the layout was not intended as a celebration of Victorian mental hospitals, or the often poor treatment and institutionalisation of mentally ill people that took place in them. It’s difficult to say whether (and if so, how) they should have addressed this aspect more.

 

The ‘Roswell Mill’ thread elsewhere on RMWeb, and the discussions around depictions of slavery etc. that were a big part of the Southern US setting.

 

I think I’ve also seen a slightly gory diorama depiction of the accident in which Huskisson was killed. While it perhaps could have been done slightly differently it is depicting a sad but significant event in railway history so perhaps is OK to include. I wouldn’t say the same about recent rail accidents though, simply because more people were affected and the survivors and families (immediate families, not just descendants) of the victims are still alive.

 

There are a few layouts based on either colonial railways under colonial rule, or apartheid era South Africa. I haven’t noticed whether these layouts particularly address the racist aspects of these settings, even though these could apparently have an effect on railway architecture (top picture): https://ago.ca/agoinsider/coles-notes-surviving-injustice

Also, I think again this is generally not the reason why that particular prototype was chosen; particularly on colonial and SAR-based narrow gauge layouts it often seems to be the motive power that is the main draw for modellers, rather than the setting as a whole.

Edited August 15, 2022 by 009 micro modeller

[Peterem]

15 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

One only has to look into the wargaming hobby to see how the historical elements are usually portrayed intelligently

 

Not really. I wargame too and a few years ago attended a major London show which thought it appropriate to have a group of SS re-enactors as guests without any attempt at providing balance. I have found wargamers who won't do modern wars, Nazis or have Confederate troops, and others who prefer them, or complain that certain rules don't give the Wehrmacht enough of an advantage.

 

The point is that most wargamers depict battles, not wars. They can field forces representing any political cause they wish, and their research about how those soldiers looked and acted on the battlefield will be impeccable. But abstractly simulated clashes on a tabletop can be done without any depiction of, or serious thought about, the causes the real-life counterparts of those miniatures fought for or the societies that produced them.

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

That wasn't what I said. And it wasn't a criticism of Link but rather the people who unthinkingly ape his style.

 

I dislike the attempts by some modern photographers to recreate Link photos, posed 1950s shots etc which airbrush racist segregation out of the equation.  It is akin to representing Nazi era Germany and airbrushing out antisemitism, or representing the Communist bloc without reflecting on the horror of the purges. (I will happily lay my cards on the table that my family were victims of the Nazis and the Communists).

Which is why I asked about using solely him as an example, what was the relevance compared to any other period cameo across the US South? Most model to create a rose tinted image of their perfect world as seen on tv and in photos like Link’s. Is there really an airbrushing of history or just an escapist hobby from the realities we also live with? I’ve discussed the current situation on race with several friends and colleagues in college and jobs since and how they experienced it growing up. That said it isn’t something we always talk about, most of the time we are just friends and colleagues having fun or just working we don’t have to address it unless something comes up from outside and then they know exactly where I stand. In fact one mate at work moved depots because he was fed up with certain people being offended on his behalf. He still pops in when he’s at my location and just has a laugh because it’s just a bunch of colleagues who share a world view and will stand together on work and wider issues if the situation demands it. 
Minatur Wunderland has a different responsibility as it is trying to draw in the public so it’s fair to say they have a social responsibility to talk about these things especially with many of their humorous scenes as a counterpoint. 

A model railway show isn’t the same and while the show manager should be aware of offensive issues ultimately that should be their call before inviting the layout or at least a challenge on the day. I don’t think a model show has to take these issues on but if they do, like the Great Train Robbery, then it should be carefully done. I didn’t stop to see that as I have my own view on it and didn’t feel it was appropriate but I thought their context was well argued as a discussion so I just walked by when it was at a show as I felt it was valid to have that too. 
Many of our families were impacted directly and indirectly by the World and Cold Wars. One of my Uncles lived with a German family who had lost a son in WW2 during the post war occupation and it radically changed his view of the normal Germans he had hated as he fought his way across Africa and Europe. That experience of questioning what he had believed so strongly damaged him and combined with his brothers problems, from serving in the Asian theatre, led to many difficult years for my Grandparents who cared for them both. My mother grew up in that and I saw some of it, albeit carefully chaperoned as I was so young, and discussed it in great detail in later years. 
I’m fascinated by the machinery of the period but due to the background experience I’m well aware of the many aspects of propaganda and damage that were present and it needs sensitive and thorough arguments which are well done in some museums and less well in others. I wrote to the Imperial War Museum as I felt their new atrium and its galleries took style over substance too far. They have some excellent other galleries but the main one offered little or confusing context with examples of human spirit surviving displayed with artefacts from the worst atrocities with no discussion of the opposing choices that some made in their conduct. It ignored that some fought hard against the Nazi and Tojo doctrines within the system. 
So my view is it is ok to model a rose tinted view of these periods but if you include military or racial material then you should be prepared to explain why if asked. Equally these issues didn’t dominate everything so slavishly recreating the Winston Link photo can be just someone wishing to capture that same technical tour de force in a different medium, it doesn’t have to include the wider world problems of that time because the photo itself doesn’t feature them. 

[TheQ]

I'm building 2 model railways (sort of , one now, preparation for the other.)

The other is meant to be an accurate EM gauge Model of Ludgershall station (Wilts) on 27th May 1940, if there was a poster or sign for fags or anything else, it will show it.. I'm going for historical accuracy.

There were Poilu were unloaded there on and after 30th of May,  but if there had been  any of African decent on my chosen day they would have been modelled.

 

The one  I'm working on now, is a fictional 1963, N gauge  Highlands and Islands line, I'm more likely to have something comic than real, but it will have to be in the style of the day.

Saying that there will be a war memorial with a lone piper in attendance.. (Note the bagpipes, will NOT play continuously during a show).

 

Had I been modelling the 1950's USA or SA, I would be quite happy putting on it, an all black track gang with white boss, that could be quite realistic...

 

To me modelling is to be generally accurate, bypassing / white washing the truth  is wrong..

 

It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen. Winston
Smith, his chin nuzzled into his breast in an effort to escape the vile wind, slipped
quickly through the glass doors of Victory Mansions, though not quickly enough
to prevent a swirl of gritty dust from entering along with him.

The hallway smelt of boiled cabbage and old rag mats. At one end of it a
coloured poster, too large for indoor display, had been tacked to the wall. It
depicted simply an enormous face, more than a metre wide: the face of a man of
about forty-five, with a heavy black moustache and ruggedly handsome features.
Winston made for the stairs. It was no use trying the lift. Even at the best
of times it was seldom working, and at present the electric current was cut off
during daylight hours. It was part of the economy drive in preparation for Hate
Week. The flat was seven flights up, and Winston, who was thirty-nine and had
a varicose ulcer above his right ankle, went slowly, resting several times on the
way.

On each landing, opposite the lift-shaft, the poster with the enormous face
gazed from the wall. It was one of those pictures which are so contrived that
the eyes follow you about when you move. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING
YOU, the caption beneath it ran.

 

 

 

[woodyfox]

Looking at the Modelling industry...  A quick search reveals 'flesh' colours on offer to be a pinkish colour of various hues. A search of ready to plant people in various scales reveals few if any depicted in any flesh tone other than pinky/yellow... 

When i was on BR in the 80s many of my colleagues and passengers didn't have this type of skin tone.

The industry really needs to address this issue before we worry about ommitting or including historical facts.