Identifying old cars from their registration numbers

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, Halvarras said:

K = Luton - because.......

It has been suggested it was from Milton Keynes, rather than Luton, except it's now Boreham Wood.

5 hours ago, Halvarras said:

The last three letters are generated alphabetically from AAA to ZZZ

In Cumbria the first issues of PX51 started from ZZZ and went back!

There was a car in Keswick registered right at the start on 1st Sept 2001 and it was PX51ZZX

The local Offices like e.g. Carlisle in the Preston area can also subdivide their allocations and were using U, V, W, X & Y separately, each for cars delivered by dealers in different areas of Cumbria.

[Halvarras]

1 hour ago, Johann Marsbar said:

I tried to locate the records from ADX 1/APV 1 onwards and was told at the time that they were "supposed" to survive somewhere, but nobody seemed to know who actually had them !  

This reminds me that when I was at school some idiot came up with a registration plate competition - we had to see a 1, then a 2, 3, and so on. I got as far as 208 before constantly looking at reg plates when I was out and about exceeded my boredom threshold (I'm not sure what that score says about me 🤪 but it was a stupid idea anyway - but then I took up train-spotting....... at least I didn't try to spot 'em in numerical order 🤣!)

3 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

Kent Archives have some very early registration records - up to about the early 1920s at least - as handwritten ledgers. Other county records offices may well have similar for their own areas 

At the end of 1971 I was one of four people temporarily employed by the Vehicle Records Office in Old County Hall, Truro (just up the road from the station) to go through the old records and chuck out all the long defunct ones. I don't think it had ever been done before as there were a lot of traction engines!

[Mike Harvey]

On 26/08/2022 at 20:17, Jim Martin said:

I've been given a set of old photographs which are allegedly of my ancestors. One of them clearly shows a car and I was hoping that it might be possible to date the photos from the car. Is there any way of identifying an old car from its registration? I was wondering if there's a database of such things.

 

It's a saloon, registration NOH975 or possibly NUH975.

 

Jim

NOH was issued by Birmingham in the period May to December 1953. NUH was issued by Cardiff between May and December 1957. In this link, click on the last two letters from the registration plate in the table in blue on the right. It shows various issues - letters first, numbers first, letters first with a suffix. 

 

https://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/registrations/reg-letters.htm

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 29/08/2022 at 16:12, Halvarras said:

 

The last three letters are generated alphabetically from AAA to ZZZ excluding I & Q - certain combinations are reserved for the DVLA to flog, or banned for various reasons!

 

Not wishing to dispute an obvious expert, but from personal observation, in order to minimise the chances of someone getting their initials or name on a plate the letters GHJKSTUVWXYZ seem to be primarily used in at least 1,2 or even all 3 of the last letters.

 

Mike

[JimC]

IIRC In the early 80s when I was in the motor trade the numbers were issued sequentially separately from the letters, so on the letter boundary XXX499V would be followed by XXX500W, and the wrap around from 999 to 1 or 100 (I forget whether 1 and 2 digit numbers were sold separately at that time) would happen at some random time.

[Halvarras]

4 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Not wishing to dispute an obvious expert, but from personal observation, in order to minimise the chances of someone getting their initials or name on a plate the letters GHJKSTUVWXYZ seem to be primarily used in at least 1,2 or even all 3 of the last letters.

 

Mike

You may well be right, only the DVLA will know on what grounds combinations are withheld, although the chances of somebody getting their initials on their new car at random would be roughly (because DVLA keep a number of combinations to sell) 1 in 13,824 (24 x 24 x 24) - considerably better odds than winning the lottery so it must happen from time to time! The other 13,823 will have to pay the DVLA for the privilege (I once read in a car mag that the DVLA had made £1.1 billion selling personalised car registration numbers - not bad going, considering they're selling something they get for nothing. This may have been as long as two decades ago so heaven knows what that figure is now......)

 

2 hours ago, JimC said:

IIRC In the early 80s when I was in the motor trade the numbers were issued sequentially separately from the letters, so on the letter boundary XXX499V would be followed by XXX500W, and the wrap around from 999 to 1 or 100 (I forget whether 1 and 2 digit numbers were sold separately at that time) would happen at some random time.

The registration system in force until 1st August 1983 used a year identifier suffix - it had started with A in 1963, technically 1st January but not sure if it was universal that year - E from 1 Jan 67 only lasted 7 months as F was issued from 1 Aug 67, because January was proving increasingly inconvenient, for much the same reason August was to become problematic later on - vehicle prep during holiday season! The second and third letters were regional identifiers and the first letter ran sequentially, so in the case of Cornwall which was allocated AF, CV & RL when I was growing up, the sequence in 1964 ran AAF1-999B, then ACV1-999B, then ARL1-999B, then BAF1-999B - by which time it was December, so January 1965 started with BCV1-999C, then BRL1-999C, then CAF1-999C, and so on. This system expired in 1983 and switching to a prefix instead, starting at A again, was a no-brainer! IIRC DVLA held back 1-20 and 111/222 etc for sale, initially starting with the H prefix (1990) onwards, A - G availability being added later.

And whilst we're on the subject........the new '72' registrations are released today, as it happens, although the wobbly economic conditions may make them harder to spot........personally I still miss the annual 1st August prefix spotting ritual, it was easier. But then, wasn't everything back then.......🥴

[PaulCheffus]

19 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Not wishing to dispute an obvious expert, but from personal observation, in order to minimise the chances of someone getting their initials or name on a plate the letters GHJKSTUVWXYZ seem to be primarily used in at least 1,2 or even all 3 of the last letters.

 

Mike

Hi

 

Well they failed in my case as my plate has my initials on it. Plate bought direct from the DVLA in June 2015.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 01/09/2022 at 04:19, Halvarras said:

And whilst we're on the subject........the new '72' registrations are released today, as it happens, although the wobbly economic conditions may make them harder to spot.

 

Coincidentally here in Spain we're on the cusp, if it hasn't happened already, of rolling over from L to M letter indicators.

As there is no facility to order a numberplate over here, its my best chance of getting my initials by a fluke!

I have never understood the UK fetish for being able to identify a vehicle by its year and area of registration, other countries do it too, but in Spain they are consecutive numbers issued adhoc from Madrid and if you're lucky you could randomly get the number 0000!

 

Mike.

[Rugd1022]

On 29/08/2022 at 00:01, John M Upton said:

Should be MOT exempt on account of age (daft UK Government idea which means old unsafe junk amateurishly welded by a bloke in a shed can now legally be driven on the road with no checks whatsoever but as Ben Elton said, a little bit of politics creeping in there...)

 

NHK 295M had a complete very expensive restoration though. I do wonder if they preserved the 1970's nicotine stains though...

 

NHK's restoration first started way back in 1988 when its owner Steve bought it, it got so far then he was let down very badly by a professional restorer and so started the process all over again. The original reflective pressed alloy plates fitted in 1973 were sold to a member of the old TV Lounge / Sweeney forum, the plates Steve put on it during the restoration are new ones.

 

Here it is in late 1974 in Colet Gardens Hammersmith, W6 -  one of Doug Webb's original photos taken for the blue tinted title sequence used in the first three series of the show...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Rugd1022

[whart57]

On 26/08/2022 at 21:52, Rivercider said:

If it is NUH975 then as Moxy has mentioned it would have been registered in Cardiff.

 

Looking at some old City of Cardiff bus fleet lists I see some buses registered around the same time.

Guy Arab IV MUH316 to MUH330 were registered in 1956 and 1957.

Guy Arab IV OUH343 to OUH354  were registered in 1959.

 

Therefore presumably NUH975 would have been registered in Cardiff in 1958.

 

cheers 

 

 

 

 

I'd be inclined to suggest it could have been a year or so earlier. Bus companies liked to reserve a block of numbers when they placed an order for buses. I don't know about the City of Cardiff but East Kent used the registration numbers as fleet numbers. This meant that the numbers had been allocated by the council up to a year before the actual delivery and registration of the buses. The OUH numbers might well have been allocated in 1958 with the NUH being used up in 1957.

[doilum]

Not an absolute rule, but after the suffix letters were introduced the numbers 1-99 were often allocated to motorcycles.

[Graham108]

Was that so they could use smaller plates?

[Halvarras]

2 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

NHK's restoration first started way back in 1988 when its owner Steve bought it, it got so far then he was let down very badly by a professional restorer and so started the process all over again. The original reflective pressed alloy plates fitted in 1973 were sold to a member of the old TV Lounge / Sweeney forum, the plates Steve put on it during the restoration are new ones.

 

Here it is in late 1974 in Colet Gardens Hammersmith, W6 -  one of Doug Webb's original photos taken for the blue tinted title sequence used in the first three series of the show...

 

 

Was the M suffix the first to require reflective plates, or L? Or even K? I can never remember🤔 It was somewhere around there......

Although it is illegal to use black/silver non-reflective plates on vehicles registered since then......whenever it was (with the exception of Guernsey, so it would appear), I have seen it done, the last being a Mercedes M-Class on an 03 plate I followed home from work about 5 years ago. Such 'bravery', including the use of incorrect fonts, risks flashy blue lights in the rear view mirror - no doubt such 'brave' souls had a normal set of reflective plates at home which got briefly attached once a year.......

When the new registration system arrived in September 2001 the width of the characters was reduced from 57mm to 50mm, to allow space for the blue EU circle-of-stars banner (or something else it that didn't suit) on the left-hand side. A certain Suzuki dealer near Swindon didn't get the memo and issued new 02 plates using the old characters. They looked wrong to start with and increasingly wrong as they became surrounded by vehicles with the correct plates.

 

2 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

I'd be inclined to suggest it could have been a year or so earlier. Bus companies liked to reserve a block of numbers when they placed an order for buses. I don't know about the City of Cardiff but East Kent used the registration numbers as fleet numbers. This meant that the numbers had been allocated by the council up to a year before the actual delivery and registration of the buses. The OUH numbers might well have been allocated in 1958 with the NUH being used up in 1957.

Off-topic warning, but mention of buses reminds me that around 20 years ago Thamesdown Transport in Swindon was naming its buses after GWR steam locomotives, the names being applied above the entrance doors. When new buses began to arrive the double-deckers were named after Western diesel-hydraulics and the single-deckers after Warships - but only Swindon-built locos of course....! I recall seeing the single-decker named 'Glory' running around with a replica nameplate lodged behind the windscreen (I assume it was a replica) but perhaps not surprisingly it wasn't there for long.....

Edited September 2, 2022 by Halvarras
Remembered the nameplate

[JimC]

2 hours ago, doilum said:

Not an absolute rule, but after the suffix letters were introduced the numbers 1-99 were often allocated to motorcycles.

Wasn't the case in Surrey from about 79 on. I was in the bike trade then. We just got the next batch. 

[John M Upton]

We had a J reg Mk3 Cortina in brown (one of the very first German built ones before the Dagenham production lines had got going, with the windscreen wipers the wrong way around, i.e. continental setup) and various Mk2 mechanical parts plus a few that were from neither models which led to fun and games at the local Ford Dealership once a year on the service and MOT.

 

That had black on white/yellow plates.

Edited September 2, 2022 by John M Upton

[uax6]

I had a Moggy van on a K plate that had the reflective white and yellow plates. IIRC K was the first 'year' that used white/yellow plates.

 

Andy G

[LMS2968]

It was in 1975 (suffix N), I believe, when the reflective plates became mandatory; they were optional prior to that. Many owners of earlier cars chose them to appear up to date!

[Rugd1022]

The new rule about having white and yellow reflective plates with black digits on new cars applied from 1/1/73, ('L' suffix) but dealerships continued to fit black and silver / black and white plates for quite a while, using up stocks of existing letters and numbers. However, retrospective ruling applies now coinciding more or less with the forty year tax exemption scheme, which means cars registered after that date can now legally display the older b&w / b&s plates, but only up to about 1980 vintage.

 

This is a point that crops up here and elsewhere frequently and manufacturers continued to advertise cars showing the older style plates and the new reflective style at the same time, BL often did this with their Mini and 1100 / 1300 range. In some cases they used the previous years photos in new adverts and simply had the number plates changed by hand.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Rugd1022

[John M Upton]

And yet London Transport were for some reason allowed to continue taking new buses with white on black plates into the 1980's.  I always wondered how they got away with that exemption, especially as there were just white painted numbers with no reflective ability at all.

 

EDIT - Example from my collection, 1982 vintage Leyland Titan (TN Series):

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by John M Upton

[doilum]

6 hours ago, Graham108 said:

Was that so they could use smaller plates?

Yes. Until circa 1975 motorcycles had to display number plates front and rear. This usually meant fitting a curved plate on both sides of the front mudguard. The letters were already smaller than those used on cars and larger vehicles and had little room for the extra letter. Of my three Lambrettas only one had the seven item plate. The rear number plate was about an inch wider and always looked a bit clumsy compared to the others . The need for front plates was abolished in order to improve safety as many motorcycles had curved back to back plates mounted on top of the mudguard. To this day they still haven't found a neat way to mount L plates. The obvious solution being to mount them on the rider in the form of a compulsory tabard.....

[doilum]

5 hours ago, JimC said:

Wasn't the case in Surrey from about 79 on. I was in the bike trade then. We just got the next batch. 

Possibly true in Yorkshire too by then. Prior to this time there were many local licensing offices each with their own identifying registration letters. West Riding, Leeds, Wakefield, Halifax, Huddersfield, Bradford were all eventually merged possibly after the reorganisation of local government in 1971. Each office had its own automony over the allocation of plates.

[Bucoops]

Our K reg (but should be J) Moggy had reflective plates but was "allowed" silver on black so the above sounds about right.

[Metr0Land]

On 02/09/2022 at 05:52, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

 

I have never understood the UK fetish for being able to identify a vehicle by its year and area of registration, other countries do it too

 

Mike.

 

The police want(ed) a way to quickly identify age of vehicle to see if MoT was needed (and poss anything else age-related).  Doesn't work with cherished plates and others pre-dating 1963  but will apply to the vast majority o vehicles on the road.

[Halvarras]

2 hours ago, Metr0Land said:

 

The police want(ed) a way to quickly identify age of vehicle to see if MoT was needed (and poss anything else age-related).  Doesn't work with cherished plates and others pre-dating 1963  but will apply to the vast majority o vehicles on the road.

 

Not only the police, the motor industry also wanted a quick visual method to identify the age of used vehicles, and the buying public finds it useful too, although some may still struggle with subtracting 50 from the September registrations.................nah, after 20 years' practice they must have sussed it by now......🤨? Perhaps I'm being unkind. Sorry.

[4069]

22 hours ago, John M Upton said:

And yet London Transport were for some reason allowed to continue taking new buses with white on black plates into the 1980's.  I always wondered how they got away with that exemption, especially as there were just white painted numbers with no reflective ability at all.

 

Maybe the theory was that if you couldn't see something fourteen feet high and bright red, a little thing like a reflective numberplate wasn't going to make much difference 😮

Edited September 3, 2022 by 4069