6990WitherslackHall Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said: Possibly the biggest Rucksack at a show! Reasons for it could be:- 1 large order of stock from TCM 2 Got a 2 day ticket so got change of clothes and spare deodorant as not going home. 3 Hiked in from home address to save nec carpark charges! 4 Large packed lunch! 5 competition with his mate....who has biggest! 6 He is very clever and is been ironic! What ever the reason remember let's be kind to to him, and probably a member of this forum! What ever of the above he will defo have a Tesco's 30p bag for life this year. That rucksack is actually called a burgen. Still have one like it when I used to be in Army Cadets. Edited October 10, 2022 by 6990WitherslackHall 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 3 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said: Possibly the biggest Rucksack at a show! Reasons for it could be:- 1 large order of stock from TCM 2 Got a 2 day ticket so got change of clothes and spare deodorant as not going home. 3 Hiked in from home address to save nec carpark charges! 4 Large packed lunch! 5 competition with his mate....who has biggest! 6 He is very clever and is been ironic! What ever the reason remember let's be kind to to him, and probably a member of this forum! What ever of the above he will defo have a Tesco's 30p bag for life this year. Smaller than mine though! 😲 I attend a lot of music festivals, many abroad, so I needed one that I could fit everything in. Camping equipment, change of clothes, etc. including a crate of beer. Never been to a model railway exhibition with one mind.... 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Jeff Smith said: Having set the question I have to agree with you. Correct, or largely correct operation, within the constraints of the particular layout, is nice to have but being more of a builder than an operator I lean towards accuracy and appearance of the model. With my latest layout I believe accuracy in operation will be possible as well - the Glyn Valley Tramway had no signals and nor was it operated with only one engine in steam...... Most other railways didn't go along the road either! I keep meaning on popping down and having a look at the progress at the station. Then walk the line whilst trying not to get ran over on the B4500! The extended lockdown in Wales put me off going this year. I don't like Wales when it's very busy in the peak tourist season, so I'll go when it's quieter in the spring. Jason 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium TheQ Posted October 10, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) My next project railway not tramway had no signals , no lights on loco's other than headlamps, it did run along a road and across one. no crossing gates. but I shall have a pot of rivets to load up a wagon with if required.. Edited October 10, 2022 by TheQ 2 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold D9020 Nimbus Posted October 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2022 22 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: A bit like buses, I probably couldn't tell the difference unless it was blatantly obvious such as a LT Routemaster on a GWR pre-grouping layout set in Devon. Otherwise it's just a bus. If the area and era is about right, then I wouldn't know any different. Funny you should say that. There's an excellent fine scale N model of Burton, with a bus on the bridge. In Tyne and Wear PTE livery, a few hundred miles south of where it ought to be. And as I'm from the Newcastle area, it bothers me — but most people won't notice. I don't even know what the correct operator was for Burton in the era in which the layout was set, but it certainly didn't use the T&W PTE livery (I think it's a Base Toys Roe-bodied Atlantean, so it's actually a Northern General rather than a 'true' PTE bus.) 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor quinn Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 10 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said: Funny you should say that. There's an excellent fine scale N model of Burton, with a bus on the bridge. In Tyne and Wear PTE livery, a few hundred miles south of where it ought to be. And as I'm from the Newcastle area, it bothers me — but most people won't notice. I don't even know what the correct operator was for Burton in the era in which the layout was set, but it certainly didn't use the T&W PTE livery (I think it's a Base Toys Roe-bodied Atlantean, so it's actually a Northern General rather than a 'true' PTE bus.) Could it be Stevensons of Uttoxeter, their busses were a variety on yellow and white paint schemes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold D9020 Nimbus Posted October 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2022 I think Stevenson's were all yellow at the time, so perhaps the bus is the closest in livery around, but the yellow and white livery TWPTE used was quite distinctive. A shame it disappeared completely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 This has been an interesting topic. Reflecting on the OP and the resulting comments I would like to add that, unlike some of the layouts that appear frequently on the exhibition circuit, some apparently frequently during the course of a year - the sort of layouts that appear at shows such as Scaleforums Expoem, Railex at Stoke Mandeville and some others - appear quite infrequently. My P4 end to end layout was shown sixteen times in eleven years, albeit in two different formats. Several weeks before each show I rented a local village hall for the weekend to set it up, test the layout and stock and give the operators the opportunity to refamiliarize themselves with operating it. Not everyone was always able to get there. At the showswe operated a running schedule to maximise the number of trains we could run - about 40 per hour. Even then we got the odd complaint that trains weren't frequent enough. Most operators ran the trains smoothly, but a couple would get a bit slap dash towards the end of the day, I never could get them to calm down. In the early days those that were too inconsistent were "culled" but I ended up with a regular crew who were willing to put themselves out to travel long distances to those shows at their own expense. Exhibiting a layout is, in my view, largely about providing entertainment for the viewers. What that means varies according to the show. York, Warley, St Albans, attract a wider spectrum of viewer including families who are less aware of how the LNWR ran their trains in 1907. Having said that, how many experienced modellers would know that? How long would a train be stationary before restarting, how fast did the accelerate or brake, etc? How long after the train had passed were the signals returned to danger. At Rugby Midland, my local station as a yoof, the goods yard or the marshalling sidings weren't readily visible, so how they were operated was something of a mystery. As a trainspotter in the last days of steam, taking notice of the finer details of how the railway actually operated wasn't a priority. 8 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 10, 2022 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2022 7 hours ago, Free At Last said: 7 To keep you at a safe distance from someone behind! 8 SAS on active service... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted October 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) 1 minute ago, The Johnster said: 8 SAS on active service... Be very....very......afraid...they are almost as bad as the P4 guys.....but not quite Edited October 10, 2022 by Gilbert 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted October 10, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 10, 2022 4 minutes ago, Gilbert said: Be very....very......afraid...they are almost as bad as the P4 guys.....but not quite Agreed. I wouldn't want any SAS personnel near my Rucksack thanks. Neither would I want any right behind me, with no Rucksack; those Commando types have a reputation. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted October 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said: Agreed. I wouldn't want any SAS personnel near my Rucksack thanks. Neither would I want any right behind me, with no Rucksack; those Commando types have a reputation. P You obviously heard about the "Drag gear" they take on assignment...can't say any more.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northmoor Posted October 10, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 10, 2022 7 hours ago, AndrueC said: The latter. I don't know anything much about railway operation. I've not even ridden on all that many trains apart from a few years back when I spent 14 months using the Chiltern line between Banbury and Birmingham. Even then I paid no attention to what was going on I just boarded, switched on my Kindle and waited until I reached my destination. I think when it comes to exhibitions the only reasonable answer is to task how many of the attendees notice the issues. I have a sneaking suspicion that at most exhibitions the majority of attendees (possibly even the vast majority) notice nothing other than 'very small trains moving around'. And I'll risk the ire of some people here by suggesting that for the good of the hobby we should not lose sight of that. For a lot of people like myself it's just about the fun and interest of building a small railway layout. I really don't care how things are operated. I just want to see interesting scenery with interesting trains moving around. I admire those with the knowledge and determination to model and operate a railway realistically but I think if that were a requirement of the hobby it would alienate even more people since most of the general public lack that knowledge and have no way of attaining it even if they wanted to. Firstly, I will say that nobody - and least of all me - is going to tell you what you must be interested in, or that you must operate your layout prototypically. You've said what I did a couple of pages back that most viewers, including the majority of enthusiasts, don't really understand everything they're looking at. However......... Much of railway modelling is about learning history and trying to create a representation of it. If we decided that correct operation (within reason, you don't want to accurately represent branch line train movement frequency) wasn't important, should we also that the following also aren't worth bothering with: Loco and stock liveries and matching them to eras (GWR Pannier hauling Mk3 sleepers anyone?); Buildings that are appropriate to one region instead of seven different areas of the country on the same layout; All trains - from unfitted freight to express passenger - running at appropriate speed instead of all the same, everywhere. None of these matter in the bigger scheme of things, but it would be a great shame for railway modelling if we collectively decided that any field of the hobby, wasn't worth the bother. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 10, 2022 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 10, 2022 4 hours ago, Nearholmer said: I agree, and pointed out way back up thread that ignorance is probably the issue. Whether that matters, I’m not sure, but I observe a similar thing about most heritage railways: for various reasons they are pretty much not like real railways at all. Yet this combination of models and preserved railways forms the picture in the minds of most people, even in the minds of many railway enthusiasts, it defines what “past railway” is, and I wonder how much of the rest of our conception of the past is similarly slightly off-beam for the same sorts of reasons. Good point; preserved/heritage lines are in a sense modelling to 12"/foot scale, and, because they have to use whatever locos and stock they have available, not necessarily finescale modelling to 12"/foot. Even the bigger ones find it difficult to match stock to locos in correct period livery, and many rely heavily on Austerity saddle tanks hauling mk1s, which would have been rare and mostly confined to empty stock moves on the 'real' railway. Many are branch lines that did not in their working lives usually feature big tender engines with 10-coach rakes at full line capacity on summer Saturdays, and, apart from the odd photographic charter goods made up of an unlikely consist in ex-works livery of whatever is available, that entire pickup aspect is ignored, with it's shunting at each station. The Great Central tries to avoid this, being intended from the outset to preserve the operation of main line railways in the steam era, but clear roads are rare (how many heritage lines have, or need, distant signals that are ever pulled off) and even the Windcutter is an unloaded representative lightweight shadow of the awesome 60mph 9F-with-1,000-tons-on-the-drawhook thundering through the night reality; there are few guards left alive now who could work such a train safely anyway. I could, once I'd picked up the road knowledge, but wouldn't be able to pass the eye test... There are people who are serial builders of layouts, who love doing this and will move on to the next layout as soon as this one is finished (to the degree that layouts are ever finished), and it is just as well for show organisers that these people exist so that there is a steady stream of new layouts on tap. There is no reason that they should have any interest in operating, realistic and to rules or not, and it would never be my intention to force that on them, but I return to my core point, which is that at a show with scale pretensions, 'scale', in the sense of attitude and discipline to create a realistic representation of reality to the best possible extent, should extend to the way the trains are driven and operated on 'traditional' layouts. By that I mean steam age layouts and those encompassing post 1968 scenarios in which steam-type operation of goods yards and part-fitted trains apply, well into the 1980s. Nowadays trains are very largely made up of multiple units or fixed rakes of block freight wagons that are picked up at one point and driven to another without shunting, setting back into layby sidings or the 'wrong road' to allow faster traffic to pass, detaching or attaching stock, or changing locomotives and brake vans at company boundaries; it's different, and so it should be. The last generation of railwaymen who drove and operated them in this way are getting on a bit now and will be becoming increasingly thin on the ground, but the basics of the knowledge should not die with us; it's there if you bother to look, and will be for at least another generation, possibly two. Steam locomotive operation is kept alive with a genuine desire on the part of the crews, few of whom have experience of 'working' pre 1968 steam, to get the best out of the locos, and lively discussion of the ways of doing this is in a healthy and active state, but there's more to railways than engines, not that some enthusiasts are aware of this. Aspects of operation are kept alive on the heritage lines; shunters' coupling up with screw or buckeye couplings, lamps, handsignals and lamp signals at night, semaphore signalling, brake continuity tests, easing up movements, pinning brakes down on wagons, protection with detonators, looking along the slam door handles to check that they are all aligned (shut properly) before giving right away as a conditioned Pavlovian reflex, driver, guard, and signalman training to pass out on Rules and Regulations, but new Rules and Regulations are in place, Health & Safety and risk assessments intrude (not complaining about this, it's a good thing, less blood in the bucket that the rules are found at the bottom of) and the 1955 book, my bible, was replaced during my working railway career in the 70s. The more 'freestyle' aspects, loose shunting, gravity shunting, the High Victorian lunacy of slip coaches and such are not vital to include in model operation unless you have specifically built a hump yard or a recreation of a prototype marshalling/sorting yard or slip destination where this happened in reality, in which case I dips me lid to yer, sir, you've embraced a load of challenges, or problems as I call them, and I genuinely wish you the best of luck with them. It can be done, for sure, but not easily if you want it to look and move right, and most modern show audiences wouldn't believe it anyway! Can you imagine the risk assessment meeting for a proposal to demonstrate loose shunting a yard on a preserved railway; 'you want to do what!!! Are you insane!!!'. And if it went wrong... What might be more easily recreated in the world of DCC control is working loose coupled goods trains down gradients with the brake van holding them back to keep the couplings taut. Some sort of working brake in the van, not neccessarily scale, a rub on the axles will do so long as the wheels are not locked, should be possible, or perhaps a magnet along with a ferrous strip under the track hidden in the ballast. Brake vans on my DC layout are fitted with foam rubber pads that bear lightly on the axles, useful in shunting to keep the wagons from moving off at the slightest nudge, a prototypical piece of working. Pinned down handbrakes, or at least the effect of them, they're pinned down on the other side of the wagons where we can't see the postion of the lever, might be achievable in the same way; come and join me for an afternoon of 4mm Penrhos-style incline working, or dropping the Presflos into Aberthaw Cement Works by Newton's First Law, or making up a train at Swansea High Street goods at night with unlit loose shunted wagons flying around you in every direction including on to the road you're working on, Stationmaster Mike, and we'll rediscover all those swear words we've half forgotten! As I've said before, nerves of steel we 'ad, boyo. Nerves of steel, wills of iron, hearts of oak, and knobs of butter. For the sandwiches... 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 2 hours ago, Gilbert said: Be very....very......afraid...they are almost as bad as the P4 guys.....but not quite As one of the P4 guys, Gilbert, I look forward to meeting you and your rucksack at an exhibition one day. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 5 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said: Funny you should say that. There's an excellent fine scale N model of Burton, with a bus on the bridge. In Tyne and Wear PTE livery, a few hundred miles south of where it ought to be. And as I'm from the Newcastle area, it bothers me — but most people won't notice. I don't even know what the correct operator was for Burton in the era in which the layout was set, but it certainly didn't use the T&W PTE livery (I think it's a Base Toys Roe-bodied Atlantean, so it's actually a Northern General rather than a 'true' PTE bus.) Not Tyne & Wear, but I did find an old West Yorkshire bus with Bradford on the destination board in Utrecht! At first I thought it was a LT bus as it was red. Went to take a photo and as I got closer I could see it said Yorkshire. It didn't even seem to be doing anything. Just parked up with nobody around. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 Regarding acceptable exhibition hygiene standards I was wondering if it might be possible for visitors to be processed through some sort of decontamination arrangement along the lines of a sheep dip. 2 1 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestTom Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 I sometimes think that what might be an interesting exercise would be to have a model railway, but have little signs explaining the different compromises that are made, e.g. in terms of space, track gauge, operation etc. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold C126 Posted October 14, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2022 (edited) On 11/10/2022 at 00:37, AndyID said: Regarding acceptable exhibition hygiene standards I was wondering if it might be possible for visitors to be processed through some sort of decontamination arrangement along the lines of a sheep dip. Please keep the sheep-dip away from my tweed suit; I can not afford to replace it! On a more serious note - and I will never be able to make anything worth exhibiting - but I would have a discreet sign saying something like, "I was never employed on the railways, so any comments and corrections regarding inaccurate operation would be gratefully received. I wish to learn." Edited October 14, 2022 by C126 Wrong discrete/discreet. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fulton Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 38 minutes ago, HonestTom said: I sometimes think that what might be an interesting exercise would be to have a model railway, but have little signs explaining the different compromises that are made, e.g. in terms of space, track gauge, operation etc. I have just that, on the backscene, the biggest compromise is that while the width is scale, the length has been reduced by 40%, I find it a bit odd that we go to the minute detail, on some things, and get upset on some incorrect detail or operation, but except the whole station being quashed to a fraction of its correct size, I know it is lack of space and would you really want to undertake the building of a station say 40' long in 4mm, I think not. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 Having read through this thread has made me realise........ . .........I no longer have a desire to return to exhibiting, instead, I'll just run my layout at home, for my enjoyment and s*d everyone else ! 6 3 2 2 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ColinK Posted October 23, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2022 My current 0-16.5 layout is of a rail served chocolate factory where life sized chocolates have to be loaded onto the matching colour open wagon. Its predecessor was of a rail served broken biscuit repair factory. Locos used on both layouts included DRS, Freightliner and EWS narrow gauge locos. While factory security is provided by my verson of Thomas the Tank engine. I doubt they meet the ‘acceptable standards’ for some people! On the other hand they have been popular with the public when I’ve exhibited them. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted October 23, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2022 1 hour ago, br2975 said: Having read through this thread has made me realise........ . .........I no longer have a desire to return to exhibiting, instead, I'll just run my layout at home, for my enjoyment and s*d everyone else ! It is a shame that this thread has brought you to that decision. I'm still awaiting the OP to reply to my question of how he changes his lamps. And a video of it would be even better. 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradfordbuffer Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 2 hours ago, newbryford said: It is a shame that this thread has brought you to that decision. Most threads on RM web go round and round the set track curves and derails at every opertunity !! ....and as for conclusions make your own mind up... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 24, 2022 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, newbryford said: It is a shame that this thread has brought you to that decision. I'm still awaiting the OP to reply to my question of how he changes his lamps. And a video of it would be even better. I’ll try and arrange video evidence for you, sir, but in the meantime here’s a description. Firstly, let me establish that the lamp changing is carried out by the hand of god, as is the uncoupling; I leave it to you to decide whether or not you would find this acceptable on an exhibition layout. I am quite happy to see hand of god shunting with scale couplings and lit hooks at shows and would regard lamp changing in the same light. I do not exhibit my layout. Lamps are Modelu 3D prints, which look pretty realistic and are printed with slots in the bottom of the bodies so that they can be pkaces on lamp brackets. Some lamp iron brackets on models are too coarse in scale and have to be filed down before the lamps will fit, and where brackets are not provided, as on older models, or need to replace moulded lamp irons, I make my own out of Rexel no. 13 staples; bought a box five years ago and haven’t got half way through it yet. I drill into the plastic loco, coach, van, or wagon body and superglue the staple in place, cut to a suitable length with a pair of snips but I don’t use my good snips for this job. A straight piece is used for loco buffer beams and smokebox tops, and a right-angled piece for more or less everything else; bunkers, tender rears, coaches, fitted freight vehicles. Metal locos and Comet coach kits have them soldered on, right-angled or joggled so that the back of the lamp is clear of the vehicle body. In this way the lamps can be swapped around at the terminus and correct headlamp codes can be shown, without lamps in between vehicles. Brass ‘bend-‘em-up-youself’ brackets are available of course, but my staples don’t look too bad once they are painted. The system is not perfect, because the Modelu lamps, excellent though they are, are designed to be posed on or permanently fixed to vehicles and not to be handled in this way; the handles break off if you look at them funny and the lenses go missing, and the slots wear out from placing them on and removing them off the brackets (Modelu originally made them with two slots but more recent prints have one, which makes them much more robust), plus they sacrifice themselves regularly to the Carpet Monster, so I get through a good few and the costs are mounting up, but it’s worth it for the realism; trains incorrectly lamped are not something I can live with. It just look wrong… Edited October 24, 2022 by The Johnster 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts