Hornby announce TT:120

[andythenorth]

4 hours ago, Porfuera said:

...although obviously they are not able to discuss and agree things like who makes what because that would be contrary to competition laws, which he also mentioned.

If it's the same video I saw he's glossing over the situation a bit.  Companies can't discuss future plans that would infringe on fair competition, discuss fixing pricing etc, but companies can collaborate to co-market their products, and to develop complementary products.  It is an area to tread carefully though, and IANAL etc.

[Jeff Smith]

Surely Peco has done this a few times by producing rolling stock to complement various locos from other manufacturers.

[andrewshimmin]

18 hours ago, natterjack said:

Looking at the main ranges of Heljan in O,  Accurascale in OO, Piko inTT120 and Kato in N, their mainstays are definitely post steam. Suggests a market trend to me.

 

I think that's more about specialist manufacturers filling gaps where the leading (big volume) manufacturer doesn't produce something (they can't do everything or anything like everything).

 

I can't find statistics for the best selling models, but I'd be astonished if it's not dominated by steam.

 

I'm quite catholic in my tastes - I am running a Piko ICE3 alongside my Harrogate Pullman (i.e. the Scotsman set) and will be hopefully collecting models from steam, early diesel and electric, and contemporary eras (money and availability permitting). But I think Hornby would sell more of the steam models (including to me!).

 

It's not really true to say that Hornby is focusing on steam era either - of the initial locomotives in Phase 1/2 there are three steam (A1/A3, A4, Duchess) and four diesel (08, 43, 50, 66). Future phases will include both fairly equally from what we know. They've strongly hinted they're working on the Class 800 family. The main "modern image" things they haven't announced or hinted yet are an AC electric locomotive, and a DMU (although I imagine there's one in the works somewhere given their popularity in OO).

 

[Pete the Elaner]

14 hours ago, Porfuera said:

 

This isn't what SK said in one of the TT Talk videos - Hornby have talked with Peco and other manufacturers about TT:120 and other things, although obviously they are not able to discuss and agree things like who makes what because that would be contrary to competition laws, which he also mentioned.

 

I got the impression that he didn't seem unhappy about it - quite the reverse.

 

& you believed that? Good for you.

Their marketing strategy does not follow it.

[Pete the Elaner]

47 minutes ago, andrewshimmin said:

 

I think that's more about specialist manufacturers filling gaps where the leading (big volume) manufacturer doesn't produce something (they can't do everything or anything like everything).

 

I can't find statistics for the best selling models, but I'd be astonished if it's not dominated by steam.

 

I'm quite catholic in my tastes - I am running a Piko ICE3 alongside my Harrogate Pullman (i.e. the Scotsman set) and will be hopefully collecting models from steam, early diesel and electric, and contemporary eras (money and availability permitting). But I think Hornby would sell more of the steam models (including to me!).

 

It's not really true to say that Hornby is focusing on steam era either - of the initial locomotives in Phase 1/2 there are three steam (A1/A3, A4, Duchess) and four diesel (08, 43, 50, 66). Future phases will include both fairly equally from what we know. They've strongly hinted they're working on the Class 800 family. The main "modern image" things they haven't announced or hinted yet are an AC electric locomotive, and a DMU (although I imagine there's one in the works somewhere given their popularity in OO).

 

 

No.

O is a god example, because Hornby are not a part of it.

Dapol & Heljan have the market share here & they produce more diesel than steam.

 

As for modelling in general:

Some of us may want to model history.

Some of us may want to model the current scene.

Some of us may want to model what we remember.

Apart from railtours, steam finished on the main line nearly 55 years ago, so the majority of the public will not remember it. Among these, only historians will want steam.

 

The specialist manufacturers have not been filling the gaps either.

Bachmann & Hattons make (or made?) a class 66

Accurascale will be making a class 31, 37 & 50 to add to their class 92.

Bachmann make a class 08, 37, 47, 90 (& as already mentioned, a 66)

Cavalex will be making a class 56 & were about to make a 91.

Heljan make a class 35, 47, 58 & 86.

None of these are 'filling gaps'. They are direct competition for models either currently or formerly available from Hornby & apart from the 08, superior.

Most have sold very well too, so not a niche market.

Their HST has continued to be a popular model since it was introduced in the late 70s, partly because it it still in service.

In a previous TV programme, SK was agitated about someone else producing a terrier, claiming it was Hornby's model & should stay that way, so they re-tooled it. They don't seem to have the same attitude with D&E.

[JohnR]

5 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

No.

O is a god example, because Hornby are not a part of it.

Dapol & Heljan have the market share here & they produce more diesel than steam.

 

As for modelling in general:

Some of us may want to model history.

Some of us may want to model the current scene.

Some of us may want to model what we remember.

Apart from railtours, steam finished on the main line nearly 55 years ago, so the majority of the public will not remember it. Among these, only historians will want steam.

 

The specialist manufacturers have not been filling the gaps either.

Bachmann & Hattons make (or made?) a class 66

Accurascale will be making a class 31, 37 & 50 to add to their class 92.

Bachmann make a class 08, 37, 47, 90 (& as already mentioned, a 66)

Cavalex will be making a class 56 & were about to make a 91.

Heljan make a class 35, 47, 58 & 86.

None of these are 'filling gaps'. They are direct competition for models either currently or formerly available from Hornby & apart from the 08, superior.

Most have sold very well too, so not a niche market.

Their HST has continued to be a popular model since it was introduced in the late 70s, partly because it it still in service.

In a previous TV programme, SK was agitated about someone else producing a terrier, claiming it was Hornby's model & should stay that way, so they re-tooled it. They don't seem to have the same attitude with D&E.

 

And what share of the overall Model Railway market are those? It is too easy to assume that the dedicated modeller is the totality of the market. 

[PeterStiles]

12 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

They don't seem to have the same attitude with D&E.

Except in the 1st series of Hornby A Model World the entire reason behind tarting up the HST was because they'd heard "someone else was going to do one"(*)... I'm pretty sure the HST isn't a steam loco..

 

(*) Not that I believe -everything- I head on that show.

[Pete the Elaner]

10 minutes ago, PeterStiles said:

Except in the 1st series of Hornby A Model World the entire reason behind tarting up the HST was because they'd heard "someone else was going to do one"(*)... I'm pretty sure the HST isn't a steam loco..

 

(*) Not that I believe -everything- I head on that show.

 

1 exception doesn't make a rule.

[curlypaws]

I'm always amazed at the number of younger modellers who never saw steam running but enjoy visiting heritage lines and running steam locos on their layouts. I primarily remember the BR Blue period and never saw steam on BR, but there is something about the theatre of steam locomotives that remains attractive.

 

So I think there is still a substantial market for steam well into the future. That said, I'd love to see more models of current day rolling stock which is increasingly EMU based.

[Hobby]

Hornby are only doing what most toy train manufacturers have done over the years, namely try to provide enough stuff to "complete" a layout. Hornby (in their early days) started it, Triang did it, Playcraft and many others have done it. I don't understand the anger that seems to come across when the modern Hornby do it! It doesn't prevent other manufacturers make and sell stuff so where's the problem.

[andrewshimmin]

I suspect the majority of customers who buy model railways don't "model" anything in particular, they (we) just acquire the stuff that they (we) like the look of and enjoy running it...

Despite being born in 1980 almost everyone I know of my age is into steam as much as if not more than post-steam. Because they're fun!

 

 

[andrewshimmin]

2 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Hornby are only doing what most toy train manufacturers have done over the years, namely try to provide enough stuff to "complete" a layout. Hornby (in their early days) started it, Triang did it, Playcraft and many others have done it. I don't understand the anger that seems to come across when the modern Hornby do it! It doesn't prevent other manufacturers make and sell stuff so where's the problem.

 

I really don't get the aggro towards Hornby. If you don't like their stuff, don't buy it!

[brushman47544]

11 minutes ago, andrewshimmin said:

 

I really don't get the aggro towards Hornby. If you don't like their stuff, don't buy it!

 

A lot of us remember and look back on the Sanda Kan period when Hornby was releasing lots of new - much higher fidelity than in the past - models, arriving more or less when expected and with pretty good quality control. It's the fact that its gone so far downhill since that rather colours my, and I suspect others', judgement.

[Hobby]

But other manufacturers suffer the same issues, just look at Heljan, Kato and Bachmann's 009 stuff, plenty of that has gone wrong for the same reasons, Heljan's especially, but there's not the same reaction, it's as if some people just don't like Hornby and go out of their way to criticise whilst ignoring the same shortcomings from others... 

 

Perhaps it's time to accept that none of them are perfect and move on...

[bradfordbuffer]

58 minutes ago, Hobby said:

But other manufacturers suffer the same issues, just look at Heljan, Kato and Bachmann's 009 stuff, plenty of that has gone wrong for the same reasons, Heljan's especially, but there's not the same reaction, it's as if some people just don't like Hornby and go out of their way to criticise whilst ignoring the same shortcomings from others... 

 

Perhaps it's time to accept that none of them are perfect and move on...

Coz it's trendy to 'Hornby bash' nothing more then pack mentality...

personally only bought the odd Hornby loco in past few years they have all worked! Lucky me! If you don't like the build quality of a Ford car....but a BMW! May be qc issues with the new tt120 stuff due to time constraints with Scotsman birthday but the rest of range will be under pressure as everyone wants it now!

[Ravenser]

3 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

 

A lot of us remember and look back on the Sanda Kan period when Hornby was releasing lots of new - much higher fidelity than in the past - models, arriving more or less when expected and with pretty good quality control. It's the fact that its gone so far downhill since that rather colours my, and I suspect others', judgement.

 

One key issue is that it was quite easy to produce something that knocked 20th century RTR into a cocked hat.

 

The huge improvement in mechanisms between 20th century RTR and 21st century RTR was always rather glossed over in the bitter "D+E Wars" which focussed exclusively on small flaws in body shape and confusions in detail. But the massive improvement in running was in itself a major reason for replacing your 20th century RTR locos with 21st century versions.

 

It's far far more difficult to "top that!" when the m odel you are trying to render obsolute is to 21st century standards. There weren't that many 21st century RTR locos with serious flaws , and otherwise all you can offer is a bit more detail - at an increasingly steep price. The law of diminishing returns has set in with a  vengance

 

In 2000 -2010 we were living in a golden age of RTR when production costs were low, manufacturing capacity was plentiful, there were low-hanging fruit in every direction  - and when incomes were rising nicely, China was open and the future seemed rosy (And some keyboard warriors of that age were living in a fool's paradise of angry entitlement...).  Bachmann were the whipping boys then

 

We're living in a very differnt age now , with shortages of everything, soaring prices, China completely closed for nearly 3 years , and so on and so forth. Everyone's delivery dates have slipped, relentlessly . With TT120 we are getting a bit more transparency than usual and we can see that the 66 is slipping a little and the Duchess has real problems with wet rails on  Shap and appears to be slipping quite badly

 

Part of the angst is because Hornby are still trying to run a normal full programme. Bachmann these days announce very little and deliver only a little bit more than that

 

A lot of the exuberence is coming from threads about manufacturers whose products have not yet reached market. Several of the companies involved have a solid prior record in another market, but the Dave Jones Fan Club and the marathon 216 page Hattons Class 66 thread show what can happen. The latter starts off with pages and pages of excitement about what is going to be the best model ever , blow away Bachmann and make Hattons the cutting edge of the hobby. It ends with Hattons flogging off a stock of broken models on ebay and saying glumly that they may rerun the thing at some point but have no immediate plan to do so.

 

Hornby have never had a debacle like that , but some people on here seem eager to assume failures even before anything has happened, and act as if nobody else has ever had a problem.

 

Back on topic , I think a manufacturer seeking to launch a new scale has little option but to "go big or go home" . A look through the early TT threads when it was just Peco track and a prospective Heljan 31 shows plenty of people saying "how can you build a layout with just a 31 and a wooden mineral???"    Hornby have to launch a complete ecosystem for this to have a decent chance of working.

 

On the other hand they can't cover all bases. There will be gaps. I note that Lincoln Loco , whose resin bodies are increasingly well regarded in 3mm , have said they will duplicate the range in TT:120 and have already made bodyshells for a 33 and 22 available . Lincoln Locos TT thread    This looks very promising - I've seen some fine results with their 3mm Class 25 body in the 3mm Society magazine.

 

I do think TT:120 is going to need a constructional culture to fill in the inevitable gaps, and I hope it will prove a scale in which it's practical for ordinary folk to make stuff in reasonable comfort. Simply sitting waiting to be spoonfed with all requirements won't work. That may well give it a distinctive and different appeal 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Ravenser
typos

[Pacific231G]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

 

 

As for modelling in general:

Some of us may want to model history.

Some of us may want to model the current scene.

Some of us may want to model what we remember.

Apart from railtours, steam finished on the main line nearly 55 years ago, so the majority of the public will not remember it. Among these, only historians will want steam.

 

 

No, steam locos are far more popular than that simply because they have an intrinsic attraction well beyond being historical objects. They're simply far more attractive machines to watch than those that hide their inner workings (or as Miles Kington once put it- steam locos are complete ham actors!) which is why they're so much more popular with the public on heritage railways, the only place where most have ever seen them,  than anything containing a diesel engine. It's rather like sailing ships. Thames barges etc. excepted they more or less disappeared from commercial shipping in British waters a hundred years ago so virtually nobody now alive actually emembers them (In other parts of the world it can be a bit different) . Nevertheless, they're still imensely popular with the public and and very attractive as the crowds that flock to any tall ships festival testify. In neither case is it just nostalgia that attracts people.

3 hours ago, PeterStiles said:

Except in the 1st series of Hornby A Model World the entire reason behind tarting up the HST was because they'd heard "someone else was going to do one"(*)... I'm pretty sure the HST isn't a steam loco..

 

(*) Not that I believe -everything- I head on that show.

Though I wouldn't go so far as to accuse it of being "advertorial" and I do find parts of it interesting, I'm afraid the series just doesn't have the feeling of being genuinely "fly on the wall". I found it hard, for example, to believe that the meeting in S2E1 where Simon is "revealing" to the design team that they're going to be working on TT:120 was really the first they'd heard of it. I may be being unfair but, to my professional eyes, meetings especially just seem a bit staged for the camera and we're definitely not seeing things "warts and all". (though too many "reality" TV shows go the other way and only show the warts!)

[Porfuera]

4 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

& you believed that? Good for you.

Their marketing strategy does not follow it.

 

Looking back at your last few comments on this thread you seem to be one of those people that never has anything positive to contribute, whether it is about TT:120, Hornby or other things in general.

 

I don't have any particular axe to grind either for or against Hornby but I really can't see the point of continually complaining about them. Their products bring a lot of pleasure to a lot of people - OK they may make the odd duff product but then I don't think I could name a single company that didn't in its time - and I think they deserve people's support, or at the very least not to be disrespected with what seems to me to be unsubstantiated sniping.

 

I and a lot of others on this thread are looking forward to further releases of TT:120 products from Hornby and others (like Peco's forthcoming wagon release or ALD Models Class 25) and I would hope that any manufacturer that gets involved in this scale (or any other for that matter) will succeed in spite of the opinions of cynics like yourself.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Porfuera

[BachelorBoy]

9 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

 

I don't have any particular axe to grind either for or against Hornby but I really can't see the point of continually complaining about them. Their products bring a lot of pleasure to a lot of people - OK they may make the odd duff product but then I don't think I could name a single company that didn't in its time - and I think they deserve people's support, or at the very least not to be disrespected with what seems to me to be unsubstantiated sniping.

 

Hornby is frustrating. It should be much, much better at what it does. It's got a fantastic brand name (and owns some other great brands too: Airfix, Humbrol, Rivarossi, Joeuf, etc. 

 

But as a business, it's a bit of disaster. Profits are rare. Losses are not. In effect, shareholders have been subsidising modellers for years. 

 

If TT120 doesn't work out, perhaps Hornby will go bust or being sold.

 

 

 

[bradfordbuffer]

41 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

Looking back at your last few comments on this thread you seem to be one of those people that never has anything positive to contribute, whether it is about TT:120, Hornby or other things in general.

 

I don't have any particular axe to grind either for or against Hornby but I really can't see the point of continually complaining about them. Their products bring a lot of pleasure to a lot of people - OK they may make the odd duff product but then I don't think I could name a single company that didn't in its time - and I think they deserve people's support, or at the very least not to be disrespected with what seems to me to be unsubstantiated sniping.

 

I and a lot of others on this thread are looking forward to further releases of TT:120 products from Hornby and others (like Peco's forthcoming wagon release or ALD Models Class 25) and I would hope that any manufacturer that gets involved in this scale (or any other for that matter) will succeed in spite of the opinions of cynics like yourself.

All models tt120 c25? Links please

[MarkSG]

32 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Though I wouldn't go so far as to accuse it of being "advertorial" and I do find parts of it interesting, I'm afraid the series just doesn't have the feeling of being genuinely "fly on the wall". I found it hard, for example, to believe that the meeting in S2E1 where Simon is "revealing" to the design team that they're going to be working on TT:120 was really the first they'd heard of it. I may be being unfair but, to my professional eyes, meetings especially just seem a bit staged for the camera and we're definitely not seeing things "warts and all". (though too many "reality" TV shows go the other way and only show the warts!)

 

Yes; it's clearly not as objective as James May's "Big Trouble in Model Britain" programmes from a few years ago. But that, I think, reflects the difference between a big name presenter doing a show for one of the leading broadcasters vs a relatively unknown niche channel. Nobody is going to say "No" to May and the BBC, even if they want to be critical, whereas Yesterday will have needed to offer Hornby a guarantee that their programme will be generally positive.

 

I don't think this one is that much more staged, though. The reality is that most of what goes on internally at any company is dull and boring, and recording hours and hours of footage just to whittle it down to the few interesting parts is incredibly tedious as well.  It's easier to set up a few scenarios and then record them in progress. It's still real, in the sense that nobody has a script, but the topics and settings are prepared in advance. Plus, any "action" elements, such as running locos on a test track, will almost always be repeated specifically for the camera rather than having the camera there the first time. And there was definitely some of that in the BBC show, too.

[Barry Ten]

19 hours ago, Porfuera said:

 

This isn't what SK said in one of the TT Talk videos - Hornby have talked with Peco and other manufacturers about TT:120 and other things, although obviously they are not able to discuss and agree things like who makes what because that would be contrary to competition laws, which he also mentioned.

 

I got the impression that he didn't seem unhappy about it - quite the reverse.

 

I think it was Andy Y who pointed out early on that Peco and Hornby were both using a virtually identical TT:120 logo (with the TT made to look a bit like a table-top) so unless it's a huge and unlikely coincidence, there must be a bit of behind-the-scenes communication and strategic thinking.

[BachelorBoy]

17 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

Yesterday will have needed to offer Hornby a guarantee that their programme will be generally positive.

Yesterday is owned by the BBC. And if the channel is regulated by Ofcom, then guaranteeing a programme will be "generally positive" might break a few rules. It certainly wouldn't be ethical.

 

[Porfuera]

16 minutes ago, bradfordbuffer said:

All models tt120 c25? Links please

 

ALD Models - google is your friend:

 

https://aldmodels.co.uk/tt%3A120

 

And it is in a thread here:

 

 

[Ravenser]

18 minutes ago, bradfordbuffer said:

All models tt120 c25? Links please

 

ALD Models:

 

ALD Models Class 25

 

I'm not expecting this to be earth-shattering. But it looks like a route to a decent 25 that runs ok.

 

We are seeing a slow trickle of products appear for people who are prepared to go beyond pure RTR, without it requir8ing the full on high-skill model engineering that seems to be common in P4 and even 2mm FS. I think the ecosystem/culture that emerges in TT:120 - assuming it becomes established - may feel more like that in 3mm . Certainl.y that's where some of the initial craft producers are coming from...

 

So - Class 22 and Class 33 from Lincoln Loco, Class 25 from ALD in some form (nRTR?). We're really less than 6 months in from the first announcement of the scale