Hornby announce TT:120

[Ravenser]

Just now, Roy L S said:

 

 I plan to use PECO track for this and an immediate restriction is caused by their 16cm long 26 inch radius points. Dare I say it but a shorter 18 inch radius point would work much better for the more restricted places. Even still I seem to have managed something that includes a run round loop that will accommodate three or four short wheelbase wagons. 

 

Roy

 

There is supposed to be a small radius point coming in the Peco range, down at about R1 or R2, though I don't know when we will see them.

 

The Hornby points being dead frog is a pretty serious objection to their use on any shunting layout

 

Look forward to seeing this

[Les1952]

1 hour ago, frobisher said:

 

I can't fault the choice of the first three locos out of the factory for Hornby.  The 08 being one of the first two would have been better from a trainset point of view, but that's probably the only level of criticism.  I suspect my resolve (that I can't really afford anything hobby-wise at the moment) is going to melt away when they announce that trainset...

 

I suspect the 08 not being in the first two is that it isn't an easy loco to model accurately.  SK explains this in terms of it costing more than the Class 66 in the video mentioned above.

 

Les

 

[Hobby]

3 hours ago, toby_tl10 said:

I'm afraid that's not what I said.

 

I was replying to Raverser's comment of "effort to stamp out this new scale" and changed "this new scale" to "the company and its approach to the scale", based on observations.

 

I did not express my opinion on the scale, nor the company, nor its approach. I suppose you will have to ask someone else.

 

Point taken, I did indeed misinterprete your comments.

 

12 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

The Hornby points being dead frog is a pretty serious objection to their use on any shunting layout

 

In these days of dcc and stay alive, is it?

[Les1952]

15 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

 

 

The 4ft x 1ft (well OK 1200mm x 400mm) "micro" is exactly what I am exploring for TT120 and have been scribbling plan ideas for. It is definitely possible to do something which will provide sufficient operating interest that goes beyond an "inglenook". I plan to use PECO track for this and an immediate restriction is caused by their 16cm long 36 inch radius points. Dare I say it but a shorter 18 inch radius point would work much better for the more restricted places. Even still I seem to have managed something that includes a run round loop that will accommodate three or four short wheelbase wagons. 

 

On a similar vein, there are those who have said no point in selecting the R1 curves in the Hornby range, however these alone facilitate a "roundy-roundy" on a 2ft wide board so for the very space strapped who are looking at a continuous run and are happy with smaller locos and stock I actually think it is a really good choice.

 

Roy

 

Broken Scar will be a roundy-roundy using Radius 1 track.  It will be started once I've finished Bregstadt and got it on the exhibition circuit.  By that time I should have 08s and J94s in appropriate colours and hopefully some appropriate wagons.

 

In the mean time the Black Forest is getting another visit.

 

Les

 

[Roy L S]

33 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Point taken, I did indeed misinterprete your comments.

 

 

In these days of dcc and stay alive, is it?

DCC, and in particular sound fitted locos, depend very much on reliable pick up and squeezing in "stay alive" to such tiny models only provides some limited mitigation against a very temporary loss of track power. So yes dead-frogs on shunting layouts are something to avoid at all costs.

 

Roy

[Hroth]

Just got the 2nd issue of the TT120 Club mag. The feature about the Class 08 says that they should be with us by time the mag is published...

 

There's also an intro to the HM7000 control system, a review of the Peco GWR station building, brief progress reports on upcoming models and other more general modelling info.

 

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, Roy L S said:

I plan to use PECO track for this and an immediate restriction is caused by their 16cm long 36 inch radius points. Dare I say it but a shorter 18 inch radius point would work much better for the more restricted places. Even still I seem to have managed something that includes a run round loop that will accommodate three or four short wheelbase wagons.

Have you considered looking at Tillig or Kuehn track? They (especially Tillig) have much bigger ranges to choose from.

[frobisher]

1 hour ago, Les1952 said:

I suspect the 08 not being in the first two is that it isn't an easy loco to model accurately.  SK explains this in terms of it costing more than the Class 66 in the video mentioned above.

 

With an 08 I'd rather it was right than Triang it must be said... This one is looking rather spiffing.

[Ravenser]

6 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

There are about the same number of 08’s remaining in service (circa 82’ish) as those three types ….and soon there’ll be less, as more 69’s are delivered.

That’s unless you count the large number of 08’s in the preservation sector.

 

 

.

 A quick look at the most recent Platform 5 volume I have (2021) shows approximately 175  Class 08s listed  , plus 10 Class 09

 

There's quite a few shown as at the Weardale Railway and occasional preserved line listings, but an awful lot of them are shown as at obvious depot or industrial locations. Thus 08 375 , listed as owned by RMS Locotec and operated by Victoria Group , Port of Boston, Boston , is pretty obviously an industrial shunter in commercial use. It's not marked with the asterix showing "engineering acceptance to operate on Network Rail infrastructure"

 

Your figures may be accurate for locos cleared to run on Network Rail - but there's an awful lot of 08s in commercial use that aren't

 

08 442 - ArrivaTrainCare, Eastleigh Depot . (Not NR cleared)

08 445 - Daventry International Rail Terminal (Not NR cleared)

08 447 - Assenta Rail, hamilton, Glasgow (Not NR cleared)

08 460 - GB Railfreight, Eastleigh East Yard (Not NR cleared)  [Hornby are doing a GB Railfreight 08]

 

and so on and so on 

 

Those aren't in preservation

[britishcolumbian]

8 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

Your figures may be accurate for locos cleared to run on Network Rail - but there's an awful lot of 08s in commercial use that aren't

Industrial railways are railways too!

[toby_tl10]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Set aside any possible glitches in the actual commercial launch - what on earth are we doing as a hobby trying frantically to secure the commercial failure and disappearance of an entire new scale??

 

Faced with a serious large-scale attempt to draw new blood into the hobby , why in heaven's name are folk trying to scare off the newbies by frantically screaming "Wake up! You've been lied to! You'll be skinned alive and dumped"???

This is where it gets tricky... Nobody knows for certain if the pie is gonna get bigger. I suppose it will get bigger (I don't know by how much), but it might also reduce the size of other slices (scales) in absolute terms, especially N. While I don't agree with scaring people away from TT, nobody knows what exact impact TT will have on N - e.g. will there be less development of new models? The theme is uncertainty, that's what people are afraid of.

 

I'm saying this as a OO person. My attitude towards TT (the scale itself) is similar to my attitude towards O and N -- I don't really care. As for Hornby, while I don't appreciate their business/marketing strategy, I still buy their products. I don't hope for Hornby's commercial failure because if they fail in TT, Hornby OO will be affected as well. Hornby performs poorly in some ways, but I hope they improve, not fail completely.

[Roy L S]

8 minutes ago, toby_tl10 said:

This is where it gets tricky... Nobody knows for certain if the pie is gonna get bigger. I suppose it will get bigger (I don't know by how much), but it might also reduce the size of other slices (scales) in absolute terms, especially N. While I don't agree with scaring people away from TT, nobody knows what exact impact TT will have on N - e.g. will there be less development of new models? The theme is uncertainty, that's what people are afraid of.

 

I'm saying this as a OO person. My attitude towards TT (the scale itself) is similar to my attitude towards O and N -- I don't really care. As for Hornby, while I don't appreciate their business/marketing strategy, I still buy their products. I don't hope for Hornby's commercial failure because if they fail in TT, Hornby OO will be affected as well. Hornby performs poorly in some ways, but I hope they improve, not fail completely.

I appreciate that this is an issue where opinions are very different and in many cases strongly held, most having been aired to the Nth degree on this thread.

 

The simple truth is that we don't know what impact TT120 will have on other scales at all yet and there are many factors that influence that. Having mulled things over a fair bit, my personal thinking is that as far as existing OO and N modellers go, TT120 will have a very marginal impact if any, A few will inevitably find reason to convert and some, like me will see it as a bit of a "side hustle" to their main interest scale wise.

 

As far as newcomers are concerned I think that with sufficient depth of product range TT120 represents a very viable choice to those who would otherwise be OO modellers and I personally believe it will draw new modellers away from that scale. Most things you can achieve in OO can be achieved in TT120 in a smaller space so there are very good reasons to think this will be so. 

 

However I do not personally see N being so badly impacted because it is much less a "train set" and much more a modeller's scale. Newcomers who want realistic length trains in a small space will see the benefits of N over TT120 in the sense of this and modelling the landscape. Having looked at micro-layout designs for TT120 I can already see that in the same area you could get a lot more N in. 

 

I am not saying I am right, the fact is we simply don't know at this point. However what I am much more sure of is that TT120 will not begin to have any significant impact on other scales at all until (unless) a viable range is established and looking at some of Hornby's projected release dates that is going to take a long time. 

 

If anything I predict TT120 establishing itself as more of a minority interest scale in the UK but with potential for much more growth abroad given the scale parity with other TT120 models of different country's prototypes. Here I believe it will have a chunk of market all to itself and potential is significant.

 

Roy

 

 

[J-Lewis]

I’m really liking the look of these TT models, I sold my OO years ago and have been modelling US HO exclusively for the past decade or so.  I’ve taken the plunge and ordered one of the new sound equipped Hornby sets and a Class 08. Hopefully won’t be too long a wait for delivery!   In the meantime my PECO track and buildings kit order arrived this morning, so TT is a go :)

[Pmorgancym]

4 hours ago, Ravenser said:

It has taken us just 4 months to go from this:

 

 

"Hornby have screwed up the range by not doing a shunting set with an 08 and some wagons"

 

to this

 

 

 

 

"Hornby have screwed up the range by doing a shunting set with an 08 and some wagons"

 

Give me strength.

 

Poster 1 has missed that the range includes what he is asking for.

Poster 2 has also missed that the range announced includes what he is asking for (there's an HST coming soon and a Class 800 Azuma promised)

 

Perhaps we can discuss the potential to do a quite substantial shunting plank in TT:120 in a 4' x 1' space (Carl Arendt's definition of a micro) without someone starting a "let's give him a good kicking" thread elsewhere  on the forum??

 

Operational interest , and all that?

Not what I said at all,  more if your pushing the space saving advantage why not think beyond the roundly roundy, which takes up a lot of space. 

[Delta_Who]

6 hours ago, Ravenser said:

But if you look back at the Peco TT:120 announcement thread, you'll see that attempts to discuss the announcement and the implications of the new scale faced repeated interventions from posters new to the thread trying to shut down the discussion. There was wave after wave of statements that it wasn't happening - the product is not for the British market, nobody is launching a new British scale, Peco don't mean a word of what they've just spent 6 pages of the Railway Modeller saying, only the very very naive would believe that, it's just a bit of window dressing.....

 

Faced with a serious large-scale attempt to draw new blood into the hobby , why in heaven's name are folk trying to scare off the newbies by frantically screaming "Wake up! You've been lied to! You'll be skinned alive and dumped"???

 

I know "Silent majority" and exaggerated social media posts are a common cliche these days, but I'm following in a Facebook thread with near 2000 members dedicated solely to TT. Already discussing the pros and cons... but by and large already embracing the new scale and underway on new layouts.

 

And this is the problem with a 200 page thread with the same posters constantly arguing about the scale. There's alot of thoughts and perceptions we don't see. Very few people want to take things on with a holistic approach... and perceive indifference as threat. That's not exclusive to TT:120. Such common arguments such as : 

"Hornby shouldn't be making toys with 40 year old tooling" : Despite the fact that such 40-year old tooling might still be selling well for them and attracting them
"Model railways need to be realistic" : Despite the fact that many people have different modelling criteria

"TT 120 is too much of a niche to sell" : Despite the fact that similarly small niches are actively influencing market decisions e.g. EM/P4... OO9

 

I'm not going to sit here and outline every pro and con to the scale. TT:120 will get a rough ride initially, and I've seen bigger fish already try and mock it. But I think once people's creativity gets underway... once more stock is introduced... we'll start seeing concepts and layouts and collections never seen before. And eventually with time, people's reception will positively change.

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Delta_Who

[TEAMYAKIMA]

1 hour ago, Pmorgancym said:

Not what I said at all,  more if your pushing the space saving advantage why not think beyond the roundly roundy, which takes up a lot of space. 

 

I have absolutely no wish to get involved in a long discussion on this, but .......................

 

1. Remember that if it hadn't been for the design flaw with the wheels, the first sets would have been marketed for Xmas 2022 and more to newbies and non-serious enthusiasts or perhaps I might suggest 'the family market'.

 

2. I suspect that the family market might be looking for a roundy-roundy layout more than a plank.

 

3. The plank concept, Inglenook layouts etc are what we established enthusiasts know and want - what the family on the top of the Clapham omnibus wants (generally speaking) is the classic roundy-roundy with a big steam locos.

 

[philsandy]

Had an email from Hornby today, my pre ordered BR A3 Night Hawk has arrived in their warehouse and will shortly be prepared for despatch.

 

Oh, and Issue 2 of the TT120 magazine arrived today, though I never got issue 1.

Edited February 16, 2023 by philsandy

[Porfuera]

11 minutes ago, philsandy said:

Oh, and Issue 2 of the TT120 magazine arrived today, though I never got issue 1.

 

If you haven't seen Issue 1 then it is available to download from the Members' Area of the TT:120 Club website (you might need to log in if you aren't already logged in):

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/hornbytt120-club/members-area

 

Issue 2 hasn't been uploaded yet.

[natterjack]

I've had a notice today that the all singing and dancing Pullmans have arrived at the warehouse.

[Ravenser]

16 minutes ago, natterjack said:

I've had a notice today that the all singing and dancing Pullmans have arrived at the warehouse.

 

Why do I have nightmare visions of a strobe-lit Pullman Disco???

[natterjack]

30 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

Why do I have nightmare visions of a strobe-lit Pullman Disco???

Its a warehouse rave!

[Les1952]

7 hours ago, toby_tl10 said:

This is where it gets tricky... Nobody knows for certain if the pie is gonna get bigger. I suppose it will get bigger (I don't know by how much), but it might also reduce the size of other slices (scales) in absolute terms, especially N. While I don't agree with scaring people away from TT, nobody knows what exact impact TT will have on N - e.g. will there be less development of new models? The theme is uncertainty, that's what people are afraid of.

 

 

N gauge has had inadequate development of new products for some years.  Dapol put N gauge development on hold to mine a couple of cash-rich alternatives, only really re-commencing when their finances allowed.  Farish aren't producing enough, and most of the newcomers are scared off by low returns- RevolutioN being the main honourable exception to this.

 

There aren't starter train sets in N (like the Hornby ones in OO with an 0-4-0T), so that part of the potential market is closed off to the scale.

 

How TT will affect N is an unknown unknown, to quote a certain US Secretary of State.  A lot of N-gauge's shortcomings are self-inflicted- lack of train sets, attitude of N-gaugers to starters in the scale and to tight curves.  How much TT will add to these in terms of the popularity we will probably have to wait 5 years to find out.

 

Les

getting out of UK N and into TT, but still modelling German N and OO, to 2025, and beyond if show bookings continue.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Les1952
grammar

[Revolution Ben]

48 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

There aren't starter train sets in N (like the Hornby ones in OO with an 0-4-0T), so that part of the potential market is closed off to the scale.

<snipped>

Les

 

Hi Les,

 

Gaugemaster have offered various starter sets in N by combining stock with Kato Unitrack and contoller, but stocks seem fairly intermittent:

 

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/scales/n-gauge.html?manufacturer=197&type=899

 

Other retailers have approached us in the past asking for a 'basic' starter set but we just don't have the kind of business model that can produce a train set with track and controller included.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Jeff Smith]

Yes, a bit late at night here so a few evening thoughts.  Reading all the speculation about the future of TT is a bit like listening to sports commentators discussing an upcoming game - ie, it's all speculation until the event!.

 

There will be items arriving at Hornby's warehouse throughout the year as manufacturing cycles are already underway.  The more that gets delivered and shipped the bigger the base size becomes.  Obviously Hornby will be monitoring orders and initiating batches to keep up with expected demand.  Later this year there will no doubt be a few layouts featured in exhibitions which will presumably help with the visualization and possible adoption of the scale.

 

I imagine I am not alone in ordering a train set to sample the product.  Having tested it the Easterner is in my display case to await, a) completing my current layout, and b) awaiting GWR/WR items to populate a TT layout.....

[ixionmodels]

6 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 Other retailers have approached us in the past asking for a 'basic' starter set but we just don't have the kind of business model that can produce a train set with track and controller included.

cheers, Ben A.

Good to see another manufacturer here making an obvious point:  no model producer can do everything that customers want. This is a regular experience for Ixion Models.  In a letter or phone call, via email or at a show, a punter will come up to us and say: “I am absolutely convinced that the 0-10-2 Woop Woop Railway ‘Desert Queen’ would be an absolute rip-snorter of a sales success. Why don’t you make that??  No-one else has done it. I’d buy two!”

Our response is:

1. It’s not in our current model program ( but thanks for the suggestion; we’ll add it to our list of customer requests).

(But if the proposer isn’t satisfied with that answer, then it’s time for:)

2. Well, there are probably compelling economic reasons why no-one else has made it; have you pondered those reasons?

3. The MOQ (minimum order quantity) of the factory we use is 1500 for locomotives. Once you buy your two, that still leaves us a quarter of a million dollars out of pocket and with 1498 [turkeys] left to sell. And no profit on this model = no next model. And therefore no more Ixion Models. Are you sure you can’t find the cash to buy 750 for yourself so we can at least break even?

Revolution Ben is, I’m sure, familiar with the old saw:

Q: How do you make a small fortune in model railways?

A: Start with a large one. 

Hornby have the resources to take the leap into TT120 - a truly accurate scale/gauge combination, a description that can’t be applied to UK N gauge and OO - that is compatible with TT120 models from everywhere else in the world. (We in the rest of the world also have the very accurate HO and 1:160 N scales.) I for one would love to see TT120 boom in the UK, and have no vested interest so personally I don’t really care if it cannibalises modellers, cash and enthusiasm from N gauge and OO. I actually don’t think it will - people are invested both financially and emotionally in the models they already have - but if TT120 grows, you can be sure other manufacturers will grasp the opportunity to make a quid. They’ll wait until there’s a ‘critical mass’ of buyers, that’s just good business sense. But they’ll watch closely, just the same,

Phil Badger and I (and our late, great mate Chris Klein) wanted to do the GC Robinson 8K ROD 2-8-0 for our first Ixion model, in N gauge, but we let ourselves be talked out of it in favour of the GWR Manor. We’re still filthy that we didn’t go with our gut on that one, not least because 13 of them ran on the Richmond Vale Railway in the Hunter Valley in NSW, less than 20 miles from my home, and we love that engine. But, looking way ahead, what about a TT120 ROD? Now that would really be something… https://livinghistories.newcastle.edu.au/nodes/view/94224

How long before we could sell 1500, I wonder?

 

Image by Brian R Andrews from the University of Newcastle Special Collections. Licensed under CC BY-NC 4.0.

Edited February 17, 2023 by ixionmodels
Spelling correction.