Hornby announce TT:120

[Jeff Smith]

42 minutes ago, andrewshimmin said:

I'm not after a date, I'm trying to understand how far along "in tooling" means.

From a salesman's point of view, the customer will be told a version of what the customer wants to hear - ie, yes of course it will be available on time, it's currently on track, etc, etc.

 

From a manufacturing point of view things are done sequentially.  Design of the product including the breakdown of the pieces, materials, choice of motor, etc.  This then goes to a tooling designer for the injection molds and other production related jigs and fixtures - these are then manufactured and tested.  Parts are then manufactured and the product assembled and tested with design and/or tooling corrections as deemed necessary.  Actual final production is then done, probably on a batch basis in order to share injection mold machines, assembly staff, etc.  So 'in tooling' could possibly be a fairly wide date range......also, the production schedule would be continually under review to move dates and order to accommodate delays, eg late tooling, material availability, etc.  The tv show only showed the original design ideas which in the next scene magically appeared in production form.......probably 6 months to a year later in reality!

[Mike Harvey]

I am obviously on Hornby’s list of market targets. I just received an email from Saga Travel  “in association with Hornby TT:120 “. I am in the upper half of Saga’s normal target age range. I suppose I will be buying for the great-grandchildren.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Mike Harvey
spelling

[J-Lewis]

Judging from the metric of second hand sales TT seems to be doing well so far.  Not much on eBay, and what does show up is selling at close to retail price or above.

 

It's early doors, but if Hornby deliver on what's been promised so far then it will be a bigger and more diverse range than the old Triang TT 3mm and that's still in active use as a modelling scale.

 

Honestly it feels like there are some people posting here that wish Hornby or TT will fail.

I don't get it.  We should all be happy for more modelling options.  It's a hobby.  It's supposed to be fun.

[Ravenser]

18 hours ago, Porfuera said:

 

 

So if the 0-6-0s were to be released next year as you suggest then that would contradict what SK had said moments before about sticking with the phases they'd shown for the locos they'd shown because Princess Coronations (Duchesses), 9Fs and Castles are all listed before J94s and 5700s - unless you're saying that we're going to see Princess Coronations, 9Fs and Castles in the next six to nine months, which seems unlikely given that there's been nothing about 9Fs and Castles and only a very little about Princess Coronations (the shop currently says Spring 2024 for these).

 

......

 

And as for the 66s, I've just checked the shop and the current dates say Summer 2024, so that's Q2/Q3 next year. I feel sure that the original release dates for the 66s were for some time late this year, although maybe I'm mis-remembering because so many dates have slipped that I'm having trouble remembering what the original dates were for these. But I find it difficult to believe that the 0-6-0s will be released at the same time as the 66s because a lot of information has been floating around for the 66s for some time but we've had nothing on the 0-6-0s besides that one comment by SK back in January.

 

 

Duchesses are being advertised for sale, as are 66s, by Hornby, Gaugemaster, Kernow etc. So I'm expecvting the Duchesses and HSTs  before Christmas.

 

I am working on the assumption that the J94, 57xx and 9F are likely to be announced as part of the 2024 range  announcement. How much they announce is going forward for production will no doubt depend on how well the Duchesses HST and other TT:120 items sell in the next 6 months. If they do well , then the Castle may join the party, and I think if they do the Castle they have to go for the Collett coaches promised alongside it.  A more cautious programme would be 9F, Mk1 SK and two or three more wagons.

 

But the whole of Phase 1 + 2 was announced with R numbers and almost entirely made available for pre-order late last year. Given that it's all been selling strongly I doubt Hornby will wait until the latter part of 2024 or later (a 2 year gap!) to announce a few more items are going forward into production.

 

Q1 2024 deliveries might slip to Q2 2024. But I really think Hornby will announce something extra for TT120 around the New Year

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, Mike Harvey said:

I am obviously on Hornby’s list of market targets. I just received an email from Saga Travel  “in association with Hornby TT:120 “. I am in the upper half of Saga’s normal target age range. I suppose I will be buying for the great-grandchildren.

 

I've also received an email from Saga offering TT:120 with a 10% discount to Saga customers:

 

Love trains? Embark on a special journey with Hornby TT:120, a table top model railway system that’s small in size yet packed with detail.

 

Get yours today & enjoy a special 10% discount for Saga customers - use SagaTT23 at checkout*

[Guest]

I did email the TT120 brand manager about the HST availability dates as they recently got put back by about 6 months to Q2 2024. She said they’d had to be put back to next year, but seemed to suggest that until the models were in production they’d not give a more accurate date. My sense is that the website dates are just pushed back into the long grass until they have a firm date for them to be shipped.

  
Judging by the recent Train Terminal blog, the next models released should logically be the MGR hoppers and 21T wagons, decorated samples of which were shown (the website still suggests summer next year). TTA tankers seem a little way behind with them only at engineering sample stage, yet the website indicates these are expected in winter 23-24. I think they showed off engineering samples of the HSTs several weeks ago too, so they too ought to be here sooner than Q2 24, which is when half the range seems to be due, including the 50 which seems only to be at an early stage of development!

 

In short, there seems little logic in the release dates shown on the website when comparing with model progress!

[Porfuera]

2 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

From a salesman's point of view, the customer will be told a version of what the customer wants to hear - ie, yes of course it will be available on time, it's currently on track, etc, etc.

 

From a manufacturing point of view things are done sequentially.  Design of the product including the breakdown of the pieces, materials, choice of motor, etc.  This then goes to a tooling designer for the injection molds and other production related jigs and fixtures - these are then manufactured and tested.  Parts are then manufactured and the product assembled and tested with design and/or tooling corrections as deemed necessary.  Actual final production is then done, probably on a batch basis in order to share injection mold machines, assembly staff, etc.  So 'in tooling' could possibly be a fairly wide date range......also, the production schedule would be continually under review to move dates and order to accommodate delays, eg late tooling, material availability, etc.  The tv show only showed the original design ideas which in the next scene magically appeared in production form.......probably 6 months to a year later in reality!

 

Don't forget there is also all the printing and the livery options - these also require a lot of backwards and forwards between Hornby and the factory to get all the colours, lettering, fine detail, etc, etc correct and the more liveries there are then the longer this takes 

[Guest]

What’s also clear in TT120 is that the bundles have also been popular in the absence of the train sets.
 

Only the new Trigo bundle is now left in stock. The Pullman coaches seem to be the constraint as the Flying Scotsman and Silver King bundles share the Pullman Octavia coach (which is itself showing out of stock as an individual item). The Plato coach is now also showing as “last few”. 
The train sets will in some cases be in stock in summer, including the digital sets. 
As the bundles didn’t get a price increase last month, they’re even better value than they were. They’re pretty much priced to receive a coach and all the track free. 

[Les1952]

A lot of posts bemoaning how late stuff is- but NOBODY has mentioned the latest news that is being reported from China.  Source Reuters, CNN, BBC and others.

 

China is currently suffering a heatwave of the same magnitude (or maybe even greater) than the 50 degrees Celsius heatwave affecting Europe.  They also had a heatwave last year.

 

The one last year closed factories all across China and significantly delayed exports and development of products for a large number of customers.  The heatwave this year is already closing factories, which will remain shut until the temperature goes down.  This will again delay products to everyone.

 

Stuff will be late again- no doubt including TT:120 stuff for Hornby.

 

Of course RMWebbers will insist that the heatwave is all Hornby's fault, or that they should have factored it in, or invested in factories in Greenland or Iceland etc...

 

Les

 

 

 

[Ighten]

Yep just had the Saga email.. think I need to cut down on the number of cruises and buy some TT.

[Porfuera]

On 20/07/2023 at 21:49, Ravenser said:

Early this year we were told that two 0-6-0s were then going out for tooling as well as the Class 66

 

So I'm assuming that they will appear at the same time as the 66 - which I would expect to be Q1 2024

 

I'm assuming that there will be a "traditional" 2024 range announcement for OO based on stuff already in the development pipeline , even if the new management decide to limit the development of new tooling for OO locos and coaches in future (on the basis that the items being tooled would  pretty marginal prospects...)

 

Therefore I assume there will be some "new " TT:120 announcements as part of the 2024 range . These would be confirmation  things already  listed in the brochure are going ahead into production. Revealing two 0-6-0s are going to be on sale in a few months would make sense as part of that.

 

The 66 and the 57xx and J94 will be the first TT:120 models that Hornby have had to develop from the ground up. They had already done  1:120 Corgi diecasts of Peppercorn A1 , A3 and A4 which must be related to the TT project, so there will have been welll advanced on CAD for Gresley Pacifics. 08s Duchesses, and 50s have all been done in OOin recent times, so the reasearch and a starting point for CAD already exists.

 

But 66, J94, and 57xx are not subjects where Hornby has developed anything before (66 is ex Lima, J94 ex Dapol, and the 1970s Pannier doesn't really count). So it's not surprising they are a little way down the programme

 

5 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Duchesses are being advertised for sale, as are 66s, by Hornby, Gaugemaster, Kernow etc. So I'm expecvting the Duchesses and HSTs  before Christmas.

 

I am working on the assumption that the J94, 57xx and 9F are likely to be announced as part of the 2024 range  announcement. How much they announce is going forward for production will no doubt depend on how well the Duchesses HST and other TT:120 items sell in the next 6 months. If they do well , then the Castle may join the party, and I think if they do the Castle they have to go for the Collett coaches promised alongside it.  A more cautious programme would be 9F, Mk1 SK and two or three more wagons.

 

But the whole of Phase 1 + 2 was announced with R numbers and almost entirely made available for pre-order late last year. Given that it's all been selling strongly I doubt Hornby will wait until the latter part of 2024 or later (a 2 year gap!) to announce a few more items are going forward into production.

 

Q1 2024 deliveries might slip to Q2 2024. But I really think Hornby will announce something extra for TT120 around the New Year

 

You seem to do an awful lot of assuming. Do you ever base any of these assumptions of yours on even the remotest scintilla of fact?

 

For a start you are ignoring the current estimated delivery dates that are being shown in the online shop:

 

Class 66s: You expect these to be Q1 2024 but the online shop currently says Summer 2024, which is at least Q2 if not Q3.

 

Duchesses and HSTs: You are expecting these before Christmas when the online shop says Spring 2024. 

 

As far as I am aware NONE of the initial delivery dates that have ever been shown in the online shop have EVER been met. Quite the opposite - I believe that every delivery date for every proposed TT:120 model has slipped at least once, yet here you are predicting early delivery dates for vast swathes of the catalogue in spite of the evidence that we have so far. Hornby seem to be over-promising and under-delivering with TT:120 and I can't see that changing between now and Christmas or even into next year. This isn't a criticism of Hornby - I'm sure they have every intention of meeting the dates they publish but there are factors beyond their control preventing them from doing so.

 

Even worse than those, you are predicting a date of Q1 2024 for the 0-6-0s when these aren't even in the catalogue at all and no-one has seen so much as a CAD for these, never mind any sort of pre-production 3D print or engineering prototype. And there are many models with release dates later than Q1 so why wouldn't Hornby put the 0-6-0s in the online shop if they were going to be here shortly after Christmas?

 

And just because various model shops are advertising these models for sale doesn't mean that they're going to arrive before Christmas. Model shops will stick to the dates that Hornby gives them - even Kernow is saying Q1/2024 for the Duchess.

SK clearly said in January that they were sticking to the phases they'd shown for the locos they'd already shown. He said this just before saying that the 0-6-0s were going for tooling. So if we can believe what he said then the 9Fs (Phase 3) and Castles (Phase 4) will come to market before the 0-6-0s. However no-one has seen even so much as a CAD for any of them so goodness only knows when they will be released. And I know that all this was said in January and that things can change but that was what he said at the time and no-one has heard or seen anything to the contrary since.

 

As for your assumptions about the 2024 range announcements, my recollection is that TT:120 announcements were going to be kept separate from 00 announcements and that the plan was to have quarterly announcements of new models for TT:120. Whether this is still feasible with the production delays that seem to be occurring is another matter.

 

And as for any sort of 'surprise announcements' in the lead up to Christmas, I just can't see it. For a start Hornby seem to want to announce everything as far in advance as possible - keeping stuff secret doesn't seem to be the way they work. Secondly there is so much stuff that has been delayed already (21T minerals, TTAs, HAAs, digital Scotsman and Easterner sets to name a few, possibly also the 66s and HSTs) then I think they'd want to get any 'good news' announcements about new models out as early as possible, especially the 0-6-0s.

 

I'd dearly love to be wrong but based on the evidence that we've seen so far regarding the shop and the release dates and also based on the information given out by SK at the time that he spoke about the 0-6-0s then I just can't see the 0-6-0s being here any time soon and I can't imagine models being released early as you are assuming.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Porfuera

[natterjack]

12 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

You seem to do an awful lot of assuming

Given all the above, Hornby were clearly sideswiped with the 22/23 Christmas season (remember counterweights?). I should imagine lessons have been learned and that new train-sets will definitely be coming;  if nothing else than as a profitable stocking filler for the recently opened dealer network. As previously mentioned we remain agog as to whether we see anything new.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Porfuera said:

For a start you are ignoring the current estimated delivery dates that are being shown in the online shop:

 

Class 66s: You expect these to be Q1 2024 but the online shop currently says Summer 2024, which is at least Q2 if not Q3.

 

Duchesses and HSTs: You are expecting these before Christmas when the online shop says Spring 2024. 

 

As far as I am aware NONE of the initial delivery dates that have ever been shown in the online shop have EVER been met. Quite the opposite - I believe that every delivery date for every proposed TT:120 model has slipped at least once, yet here you are predicting early delivery dates for vast swathes of the catalogue in spite of the evidence that we have so far. Hornby seem to be over-promising and under-delivering with TT:120 and I can't see that changing between now and Christmas or even into next year. This isn't a criticism of Hornby - I'm sure they have every intention of meeting the dates they publish but there are factors beyond their control preventing them from doing so.

 

Don’t forget that these dates are mostly not the originals. When I started getting interested in TT120 around March, the HSTs were due summer/autumn this year, the 66s were due around the end of the year and the MGR hoppers were due this summer. 
 

As I laid out in my post last night, some of the dates make no obvious sense. Models that are known to be in the engineering sample stage are showing as being released before models where decorated samples have been received. That seems unlikely. Given that said dates are in some cases summer 24 and Spring 24 respectively, that implies it will take 12 months to release the wagons with decorated samples already shown off. That suggests that the dates are somewhat arbitrary and the evidence in Train Terminal is a better guide to relative progress. I think I saw somewhere that a new TT talk video is not far off too - think it was a a Hornby response to a question on social media - that should give some good news as they’re not going to go to the trouble of creating a video and expose themselves to examination unless they have a good news story to tell. 
 

I do think it’s unlikely that we’ll see anything more than wagons becoming available this year, although the executive liveried HSTs are currently promised in winter 23-24. They might arrive before Christmas if they’re/we’re very lucky. I don’t believe the Spring 24 date for the 50s as they’ve only just featured in the prototype model stage. 

 

As an aside, I think those retailers who quote specific months for arrival dates may just be using that month as a proxy for a season. E.g.  September for Autumn, March for Spring. 

[teletougos]

49 minutes ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

 

I do think it’s unlikely that we’ll see anything more than wagons becoming available this year, although the executive liveried HSTs are currently promised in winter 23-24. They might arrive before Christmas if they’re/we’re very lucky. I don’t believe the Spring 24 date for the 50s as they’ve only just featured in the prototype model stage. 

 

As an aside, I think those retailers who quote specific months for arrival dates may just be using that month as a proxy for a season. E.g.  September for Autumn, March for Spring. 

Yup. Cannot fathom what goodwill the company hopes to attract with vociferous salvos of emails . . . when all the relevant information in them is either already wrong , or likely to be wrong soon. 

 

Even a chicken would be able to work out that this is not a good way of making oneself popular. 

[teletougos]

9 hours ago, Les1952 said:

A lot of posts bemoaning how late stuff is- but NOBODY has mentioned the latest news that is being reported from China.  Source Reuters, CNN, BBC

 

China is currently suffering a heatwave of the same magnitude (or maybe even greater) than the 50 degrees Celsius heatwave affecting Europe.  They also had a heatwave last year.

 

The one last year closed factories all across China and significantly delayed exports and development of products for a large number of customers.  The heatwave this year is already closing factories, which will remain shut until the temperature goes down.  This will again delay products to everyone.

 Friend experienced more than a month of 40-plus degree days in southern China where he was working last year. Every day, without fail, unrelenting. Many other areas are experiencing similar this year. 

 

When it is 38-40 degrees many factories that do not have air-con will not operate, by law, or only run at night. Chinese employees do know their rights, as I know first hand. These are skilled labour, not so easy to replace. 

 

Also, peasants report being told land they had re-forested under government directions to 'green the country' - China doubled its area under green cover, an astounding achievement  - is now being de-forested. Some emotive stories tell of animals they raise such as ducks, being clubbed to death by officials.

 

The edict come on down from high - the party has a multi-layered command structure with a lot of strange targets - and logic that might have been in situ when it left CCP HQ in Beijing gets lost along the way by the times it arrives in rural areas - is that this land should now be given over to growing soybeans & other animal feeds. 

 

This seems like preparatory 'capacity building', as China mainly imports feeds for pigs, chickens or ducks now. 

 

Why aren't they happy to import shiploads of feed as they currently do ?  One possible answer is expectation of war. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by teletougos

[Porfuera]

2 hours ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

Don’t forget that these dates are mostly not the originals. When I started getting interested in TT120 around March, the HSTs were due summer/autumn this year, the 66s were due around the end of the year and the MGR hoppers were due this summer. 
 

As I laid out in my post last night, some of the dates make no obvious sense. Models that are known to be in the engineering sample stage are showing as being released before models where decorated samples have been received. That seems unlikely. Given that said dates are in some cases summer 24 and Spring 24 respectively, that implies it will take 12 months to release the wagons with decorated samples already shown off. That suggests that the dates are somewhat arbitrary and the evidence in Train Terminal is a better guide to relative progress. I think I saw somewhere that a new TT talk video is not far off too - think it was a a Hornby response to a question on social media - that should give some good news as they’re not going to go to the trouble of creating a video and expose themselves to examination unless they have a good news story to tell. 
 

I do think it’s unlikely that we’ll see anything more than wagons becoming available this year, although the executive liveried HSTs are currently promised in winter 23-24. They might arrive before Christmas if they’re/we’re very lucky. I don’t believe the Spring 24 date for the 50s as they’ve only just featured in the prototype model stage. 

 

As an aside, I think those retailers who quote specific months for arrival dates may just be using that month as a proxy for a season. E.g.  September for Autumn, March for Spring. 

 

I kind of agree with this - it could be that the current dates for things like the 66s and the HSTs are fairly large overestimates and that some of the models will come in ahead of their current (i.e. already revised) dates, but I'm not sure Hornby work like this - they seem to like to try to please people by putting the earliest dates possible and then end up revising them over and over. I can't help thinking of the Class 08s where at times it seemed that every month the expected date was next month or even at times just a couple of weeks away only for the date to be extended again and again.

 

And it also could be that Hornby are keeping some stuff secret for a surprise announcement for the lead up to Christmas (like the 0-6-0s or new train sets) but I don't feel it - to me it seems like they're only just keeping their heads above water with these delays, which are likely due to the situation in China or the global availability of commodities or even just staffing levels at the factory rather than being due to Hornby's planning.

 

I'm not being down on Hornby, this is just the way that I see things based on what little evidence we have. And it is still less than a year since the launch of TT:120 so even if the Class 66 doesn't appear until Q2 next year then that will only be 18 months or so from the original announcement, which is probably a pretty short timescale in the scheme of these things. I've been keeping my eye on Heljan's Class 02, which was announced in September 2020 so that's coming up for three years since the original announcement and it still isn't here yet. Granted it is in two scales (00 and 0) and announcing it at what was probably the peak of covid probably hasn't helped it either but Hornby's TT:120 timescales are looking very quick compared to that one. Even the Class 08s were perhaps only four months late, which is nothing, really, but when there is only a very small range available as with TT:120 then any delay can lead to a bit of frustration.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Porfuera

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

This is what is worrying.

 

It's pretty obvious that TT:120 is selling very well. 

 

The falling share price suggests that investors are sceptical that the current management of Hornby will be able to make worthwhile profits from TT:120, even though it is so popular and there are so many enthusiastic customers.

 

After all, Hornby products have sold well for years. But it has lost far far more money over the past decade than it made in profit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd be downright amazed if the fall in Hornby's share price, and its recent slight recovery, has anything whatsoever to do with TT120 apart from the fact that the packaging carries the Hornby brand.  The reasons for the share price decline, and its bounce(ish) back up a bit, are readily available for anyone to see and there is a thread elsewhere on RMweb where the subject is discussed.  This one is about TT120

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

This,

 

Please!!

 

If you want to discuss Hornby's performance please set up another thread to do that!

Sorry to be repetitive but that thtread already exists - here it is for those who don't know where to look -

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

On 21/07/2023 at 10:15, jonnyuk said:

can we get back to tt:120 please, how many Joe Public want a small tank engine, would they even know what they are, used for or when?

before I joined this forum I had no clue about era’s, regions, what ran with what (and still don’t out side of ex lswr and modern gwr and infrastructure. 

 

 

 

Are you really telling me that all those people that have grown up with Thomas The Tank Engine on television over the last forty odd years don't know what a tank engine is?

 

It's one of the biggest worldwide franchises ever. I bet the average five year old knows what a tank engine is!

 

 

Jason

[jonnyuk]

7 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Are you really telling me that all those people that have grown up with Thomas The Tank Engine on television over the last forty odd years don't know what a tank engine is?

 

It's one of the biggest worldwide franchises ever. I bet the average five year old knows what a tank engine is!

 

 

Jason

They may know it’s a train and called a tank engine, that is entirely different to knowing what a tank is and what they are used for prototypically, they are not going to know what a j94 is, where it was located and what it pulled 

[andrewshimmin]

5 hours ago, jonnyuk said:

They may know it’s a train and called a tank engine, that is entirely different to knowing what a tank is and what they are used for prototypically, they are not going to know what a j94 is, where it was located and what it pulled 

 

But that wasn't the point being made. The point (as I understood it) was that even people who aren't particularly well versed in loco classes might see a tank engine for sale, and like the look of it...

[Jeff Smith]

All this endless speculation.........here's mine

 

A green 08 goods set, and/or, an 0-6-0 goods set for Christmas at about £150 to 200........

[Les1952]

2 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

All this endless speculation.........here's mine

 

A green 08 goods set, and/or, an 0-6-0 goods set for Christmas at about £150 to 200........

 

Hornby are attending three shows this back end- 

 

The Great Electric Train Show on 14-15 Oct at Milton Keynes

The Great British Model train Show at Gaydon on 28th and 29th October

and Warley on 25th and 26th November.

 

IF there is to be an announcement of a set for Christmas my gut feeling is that Milton Keynes is the most likely time to announce it.  By that time they'll know if it has made the boat in time.

 

Alternately the Summer TT:120 Club mag must be due before all that long for a longer punt.

 

Les

[meatloaf]

6 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

All this endless speculation.........here's mine

 

A green 08 goods set, and/or, an 0-6-0 goods set for Christmas at about £150 to 200........

If that was going to happen it would probably be via argos. So if its in the autumn / winter catologue we should know about it soonish

[Hroth]

20 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

All this endless speculation.........here's mine

 

A green 08 goods set, and/or, an 0-6-0 goods set for Christmas at about £150 to 200........

 

A green 08 set would be an instant order! Or rather than a set, it may be a bundle as recently announced for various Pacifics.