Hornby announce TT:120

[Phil Parker]

4 minutes ago, andrewshimmin said:

(the magazine production team, who I presume are from HH marketing)

 

The magazine is produced by Paul Appleton, who isn't part of Hornby's marketing team. You are correct that he relies on Hornby to tell him the news.

[Porfuera]

5 hours ago, andrewshimmin said:

The phases are nothing but a way in their marketing materials of them helping us understand that things are coming out gradually over time, and an idea of what approximate order things will be released in.

I don't imagine they really exist as such in the heads of Hornby internally.

I presume the 9F is missing from the text of the "Future of TT:120" (although shown on the photo) by omission/accident only - it's been mentioned elsewhere in other marketing comms more recently. And the photo is a bit of a hint!

 

I agree that the phases are just a handy way of letting us know what is coming and the order in which we can expect them - more or less, depending how the design and development go for any particular item.

 

However, in this instance the way I see this is that in order to produce some things earlier in the production schedule (in this case the J94 and 57xx) then something else has to be produced later than originally scheduled in order to make space (in this case the Class 60 and the 9F).

 

I believe this is why the Class 60 and 9F have been removed from the Phase 3/4 paragraphs on the Future Plans page, not because it is an omission/accident.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Porfuera

[andrewshimmin]

My personal suspicion is that Hornby always intended to announce an extra surprise earlier small tank loco, and we've now got to that point in their plans.

They suggested there would be extra surprise announcements beyond the Phase plans in one of the early videos.

And I think it's quite an effective marketing method.

[Porfuera]

The 57xx and J94 aren't much of a surprise given that they were already announced in the catalogue. All they've done is schedule them slightly earlier which in turn appears to mean that the Class 60 and the 9F have been pushed back later.

 

To me a surprise would be something like a Jinty released in time for Christmas or at least before Phase 3, which some people have posited (although I'm not a believer myself!) or maybe a Class 08 shunting set.

[Revolution Ben]

6 hours ago, andrewshimmin said:

I think it's less that they've changed their minds, and more that we're all reading what are essentially marketing press releases as if they were contract specifications!

The phases are nothing but a way in their marketing materials of them helping us understand that things are coming out gradually over time, and an idea of what approximate order things will be released in.

I don't imagine they really exist as such in the heads of Hornby internally.

I presume the 9F is missing from the text of the "Future of TT:120" (although shown on the photo) by omission/accident only - it's been mentioned elsewhere in other marketing comms more recently. And the photo is a bit of a hint!

I'm intrigued as to what is included in "whole variety of modern image EMUs". A class 80X has been mentioned. I wonder if something like a Flirt or Desiro type is meant in addition?

 

Hi all,

 

Yes, I would tend to agree that forensically interpreting every missive will uncover some unintentional contradictions and that the actual plans are largely as they were, except with some production slippage and, inevitably, some models will overtake others for all sorts of reasons.

 

As to the future EMUs - I hope a Pendolino is among their plans as this, with the 66 and 60 and possible a TPE 80X series, opens up numerous opportunities on the northern WCML.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, Revolution Ben said:

Yes, I would tend to agree that forensically interpreting every missive will uncover some unintentional contradictions and that the actual plans are largely as they were, except with some production slippage and, inevitably, some models will overtake others for all sorts of reasons.

 

A good point - I'd jumped to the initial conclusion that the 57xx and the J94 had been promoted because people had been quite vocal in asking for steam shunters.

 

I imagine it is equally possible that development of the Class 60 and 9F were falling behind and Hornby needed to promote something to fill the gap in the production schedules. Some while ago SK had said that the 0-6-0s were quite advanced and had gone for tooling. There's been no mention of the Class 60 or 9F that I can recall.

[Les1952]

One thing that I picked up from my chat at Gaydon, though it didn't come out as a specific mention is a feeling that some of the design work for the 08 was outsourced to the manufacturing factory and that there are aspects of the 08 they aren't entirely happy with.  I stress that this isn't a specific mention but an impression from the conversation.

 

What I did get is that stuff will be much quicker from announcement to realisation, i.e. announced later.  This includes the loco that they haven't announced at all yet (my words, not theirs), which appears to have jumped the queue.   Of course this could  be something they have mentioned but not put into one of the phases- we will find out when it is actually announced.

 

 

[Hobby]

5 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

This includes the loco that they haven't announced at all yet (my words, not theirs), which appears to have jumped the queue. 

 

Probably the "mystery" 0-6-0! 🤣

[Guest]

Given that phase 3 models are being developed now, that may explain why they’re not showing up even as pre-orders. Compare that to phase 2 models that were available 12 months ago and sone won’t be delivered for another 9 months.
 

That may also be due to the legacy club discount though, now that all members going forward will just get the standard 10% in rewards 

[Porfuera]

2 minutes ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

Given that phase 3 models are being developed now, that may explain why they’re not showing up even as pre-orders. Compare that to phase 2 models that were available 12 months ago and sone won’t be delivered for another 9 months.

 

That may also be due to the legacy club discount though, now that all members going forward will just get the standard 10% in rewards 

 

I've been thinking that too - that nothing new will be put into the online shop even for pre-order until all the 15% discounts have run out.

 

That would mean 1st February before we see anything new in the shop, so no Christmas surprises!

 

Total conjecture on my part, with my cynical hat on!

[J-Lewis]

You are probably right, the 15% discount would make a big difference if the new phase preorders were live now.  

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Les1952 said:

One thing that I picked up from my chat at Gaydon, though it didn't come out as a specific mention is a feeling that some of the design work for the 08 was outsourced to the manufacturing factory and that there are aspects of the 08 they aren't entirely happy with.  I stress that this isn't a specific mention but an impression from the conversation.

 

What I did get is that stuff will be much quicker from announcement to realisation, i.e. announced later.  This includes the loco that they haven't announced at all yet (my words, not theirs), which appears to have jumped the queue.   Of course this could  be something they have mentioned but not put into one of the phases- we will find out when it is actually announced.

 

 

We need to remember that = like various other things - there have not only been managerial been changes at Hornby but TT120 is acquiriung maturity as an accepted model railway range.  The initial announcement of Phases was no doubt intended to promote confidence that the new range was going to be a lot more than a one hit wonder.  This was no doubt to also encourage its take-up among railway modellers who work along very different lines of approach to the their hobby from the new market Hornby was seeking to create with TT120.

 

But as the range acquires maturity and as other factors such as money (for development) and ease of getting stuff to production) also come into the picture no doubt things may change to match the realities of theh day.  But the important thing to remember - even if your favourite loco is in a different place in the queue - is that Hornby have repeatedly, very strongly, reiterated their commitment to TT120.  In 00 we have often had to wait decades for particular locos we 'needed' for our version of a railway - TT120 is breaking that mould but it will still take time and Hornby has not got a bottomless pile of money to spend on creating new models.

 

And don't firget there will in future be several new model announcements over the course of the year - very different from Hornby's past approach to new announcements.

[Hobby]

Well said, Mike.

[SulzerPeak]

I do wonder and hope not if this gauge will go the way of the minidisc and laser video players?

[Steamport Southport]

1 minute ago, SulzerPeak said:

I do wonder and hope not if this gauge will go the way of the minidisc and laser video players?

 

Why would it?

 

It's an established gauge that has been in use for decades. Just that nothing was available for British railways.

 

Hornby introduced it as they already have Continental TT in their range.

 

 

 

Jason

[J-Lewis]

TT is off to a strong start, it’s seemingly sold considerably more than Hornby expected for the initial take up, the new models are looking great and provided the first four phases are delivered I’d say it’s got plenty of stock and variety to keep the ball rolling for the foreseeable future.

 

Don’t forget there are two UK manufacturers and several continental ones all making high quality models in this scale, so it’s not quite the same as Minidisc which was a Sony only product.   Laserdisc was superseded by DVD which was hugely successful so might not be a good analogy.

 

Perhaps Triang TT 3mm is the laser disc and TT:120 is the DVD replacement?  😀

[SulzerPeak]

10 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

TT is off to a strong start, it’s seemingly sold considerably more than Hornby expected for the initial take up, the new models are looking great and provided the first four phases are delivered I’d say it’s got plenty of stock and variety to keep the ball rolling for the foreseeable future.

 

Don’t forget there are two UK manufacturers and several continental ones all making high quality models in this scale, so it’s not quite the same as Minidisc which was a Sony only product.   Laserdisc was superseded by DVD which was hugely successful so might not be a good analogy.

 

Perhaps Triang TT 3mm is the laser disc and TT:120 is the DVD replacement?  😀

Hopefully, just hope its not another live steam novelty. Big call going against n and oo. Doubt the other big players will join the party?

[frobisher]

58 minutes ago, SulzerPeak said:

Hopefully, just hope its not another live steam novelty. Big call going against n and oo. Doubt the other big players will join the party?

 

Hornby missed the bus with British N gauge, and ditto 0.  The other players are eying what Hornby does.  I suspect Bachmann aren't really interested given the range of scale/gauges they are already covering (and their scarcity of internal manufacturing capacity which has lead to the whole EFE venture), Dapol are probably in a similar position.  Heljan are the most likely to dip a toe in when the water is a little deeper after being totally gazundered on their initial foray, and there seems to be some interest from Revolution staff at least.  Rapido might surprise us, but I think we might see some models from Sonic as commissions down the line.

 

The big model for Hornby will be the Class 66 as that must be appearing under the Arnold brand for the European market in due course, which means we should see some of the more obscure (otherwise) UK variants being produced.

[Porfuera]

2 hours ago, SulzerPeak said:

I do wonder and hope not if this gauge will go the way of the minidisc and laser video players?

 

If you look on social media you will find that Hornby have attracted quite a number of new people to the hobby, which from the beginning was their stated aim and they should be congratulated for that.

 

1 hour ago, SulzerPeak said:

Hopefully, just hope its not another live steam novelty. Big call going against n and oo. Doubt the other big players will join the party?

 

Speaking personally, I've bought lots of TT:120 that I would not have bought in either 00 or N, just to try it to see what it is like.

 

TT:120 would be doing even better if more manufacturing capacity were available to enable a wider range of products - but even without that, things have been selling out quickly time and again. I predict that as new items become available then these will sell out as well because there hasn't been a lot of choice to date.

 

And Hornby are confident enough to have opened it up to retailers, who in turn have chosen to stock it so they must think it has a future.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Porfuera

[Jeff Smith]

Aside from the cottage industries the RTR manufacturers are in business to make a profit - each will no doubt be evaluating the market periodically and making business decisions......

 

The history of audio/video development unfortunately has a poor track record.  VHS dominated both Betamax and Philips 2000 even though it was technically inferior.  Likewise how Blu-ray won against HD-DVD even though the discs could not be produced on existing DVD equipment and are more fragile.

 

The resurgence of interest in vinyl records is interesting though - perhaps because analogue sound is considered superior to the CD format.....!

[J-Lewis]

1 hour ago, SulzerPeak said:

Hopefully, just hope it’s not another live steam novelty. Big call going against n and oo. Doubt the other big players will join the party?

So far it looks like TT:120 could be Hornbys equivalent of Dapol’s O Gauge?  A ‘new’ scale that creates a new market and allows them to at least partly own the scale.

 

I think ten years ago few people would have predicted O gauge would be seeing such a jump in popularity and so many new RTR models?

 

British TT:120 certainly seems to be more than a novelty at this point.  If it continues to pull in these kinds of sales figures then I doubt the other manufacturers will be able to ignore it.  

[Ravenser]

3 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

TT is off to a strong start, it’s seemingly sold considerably more than Hornby expected for the initial take up, the new models are looking great and provided the first four phases are delivered I’d say it’s got plenty of stock and variety to keep the ball rolling for the foreseeable future.

 

Don’t forget there are two UK manufacturers and several continental ones all making high quality models in this scale, so it’s not quite the same as Minidisc which was a Sony only product.   Laserdisc was superseded by DVD which was hugely successful so might not be a good analogy.

 

Perhaps Triang TT 3mm is the laser disc and TT:120 is the DVD replacement?  😀

 

I have a hifi minidisc recorder , and a bag of unbuilt 3mm Society wagon kits in the cu[pboard.

 

The minidisc is in (intermittant) use, not in the cupboard

[J-Lewis]

15 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

I have a hifi minidisc recorder , and a bag of unbuilt 3mm Society wagon kits in the cu[pboard.

 

The minidisc is in (intermittant) use, not in the cupboard

I have a crate of laserdiscs, another of Betamax and a whole stack of MiniDV tapes.  I’m not sure it helps the analogy any more than your cupboard.  ;)

 

I still say British TT:120 is off to a better start than expected and shows every sign of sticking around longer than 3mm did as a RTR format.

[Jeff Smith]

Well, let's face it 3mm RTR was pretty crude by today's standards.....  TT:120 has come at the right time with DCC/sound, and better track etc from Peco for the 'more discerning' modellers to help expand the market.

[TT100 Diesels]

5 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

TT is off to a strong start, it’s seemingly sold considerably more than Hornby expected for the initial take up, the new models are looking great and provided the first four phases are delivered I’d say it’s got plenty of stock and variety to keep the ball rolling for the foreseeable future.

 

Don’t forget there are two UK manufacturers and several continental ones all making high quality models in this scale, so it’s not quite the same as Minidisc which was a Sony only product.   Laserdisc was superseded by DVD which was hugely successful so might not be a good analogy.

 

Perhaps Triang TT 3mm is the laser disc and TT:120 is the DVD replacement?  😀

 

1 hour ago, J-Lewis said:

I have a crate of laserdiscs, another of Betamax and a whole stack of MiniDV tapes.  I’m not sure it helps the analogy any more than your cupboard.  ;)

 

I still say British TT:120 is off to a better start than expected and shows every sign of sticking around longer than 3mm did as a RTR format.

 

Yes, interesting analogies which I would not disagree with. I personally think TT120 will just grow and grow. Not just the current target of "train set" sales, and that it looks a success and thus bringing in new blood can only be a good thing.

 

As for 3mm, that was and now always will be a modellers scale with no prospect of any commercial rtr. Yes there have been a few cottage industry very limited run rtr stuff (great), and with technology advances, I personally would not write off further limited cottage industry type rtr in the future. Indeed, only in the space of a few years, Lincoln Locos offerings have come on in leaps and bounds, with some nice ready to roll stuff available. BUT still need painting, coupling and glazing (but glazing is on the hit list). 

 

But what I am seeing in TT120 is massively higher fidelity in rtr than anything but the most skilled modellers can reproduce in 3mm (not me by the way) so I think that of the folk beyond the train set entrants, who may have glanced interestingly towards 3mm in the past now have a fantastic fully commercial rtr alternative in TT120.

 

Indeed, I am finding it very tempting myself, especially as I run 3mm / 12 mm gauge, can see a few 120 locos appearing in the future on my layout, but would flip flop the roster of one type or the other. Best of both worlds.

 

Having said all that, with the developments in 3mm, it is also a good time to get involved as a modeller, it is more accessible than even a couple of years ago, and the difference between 2.5 and 3mm / ft does give 3mm appreciably more "heft" (to my ageing eyes anyway !). 

 

But I totally accept, it remains a modellers niche sideline compared with what TT120 is currently and will no doubt become. Perhaps the hobby has never had it so good ?

 

Best wishes

 

TT100 Diesels

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by TT100 Diesels
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