Rapido OO Gauge LMS Dia1666 5-plank open

[Wickham Green too]

54 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Well, that's clearly not the case with the Rapido team. Are they unrepresentative of their generation?

Maybe ? ............. if you look at other model businesses that have started in the last few years, I think the overall product bias will be towards 'modern' vehicles  .......... though I 've not got a clue what a PHA, FLA or MMA might be !

[Flying Pig]

5 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Kitbuilding and DIY

 

Ok, but knocking off wagon kits with new rtr has been a general theme of the past couple of decades.  Why should LMS subjects be especially unpopular?  I don't think they are unusually well represented by kits and some of what is available is not to modern standards.

[Wheatley]

I wonder if we are looking through the wrong end of the telescope ? Rather than "why are the LMS wagons doing comparatively poorly?" perhaps the question should be "how did the GWR and SR wagons do so well ?" Especially the SECR ballast wagons given that they're a bit niche compared to the others.   

 

On the face of it they're all mundane fairly simple bog standard 4 wheelers, none of the colour,  wow factor or must-have-ness of Warwells, big artillery pieces, private owner coal wagons, GPVs or other rarities that we all try to justify, and they are (mostly)  well covered by existing kits, at least in general style if not exact diagram. But the GWR and SR modellers were obviously moved to buy them in large(r) numbers - why ? 

 

The general popularity  of the GWR amongst modellers is clearly one reason. Even I've got some GWR wagons. Southern modellers have recently had a fair few pre-grouping and other high quality models to go at in recent years, after many years in the RTR wilderness, so interest in SR subjects is high. Both stir folk memories of holidays, rolling fields, the summer before the war and all that sort of chocolate box guff. Maybe that's the reason ? I know the LMS and LNER had fields and beaches and git shot at  too, but one conjures up visions of Gesley pacifics and the other visions of a wet day in the Midlands. Maybe the LMS diehards are outnumbered ? 

 

I model the LMS in BR days (and I was born in the Midlands before anyone takes umbrage), and like 34TLBB&D I've filled my wagon requirements with kits over the years. I buy RTR wagons if they save me scratchbuilding something awkward or fiddly (Pressflow, grain wagons, brake vans) or if they're on special offer but that's about it. Icappreciate I'm probably in the minority though. 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Wheatley

[Aire Head]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I'd guess the majority of whom are interested in 'Modern Image' stuff - thus starving us 'oldies' of what we need we'd prefer ! ☹️

 

I'm 33 and dont cover any period later than 1956. The other realistic modellers I know my age all model pre-1968 when even their parents were either not born or only young.

[57xx]

I have a feeling these ones will be a slow burn but turn out to be every bit as popular over time. Despite building my LMS wagon collection already from the healthy range that Cambrian do, I still voted for the D1666 at every opportunity in the polls, it deserved to be produced. The GWR wagons may have beat them on sales in the initial rush, but I think longer term the D1666 will win out.

[Craigw]

I am one who will not be buying the D1666. 

 

My period of interest is 1919-1922 and I try to stick to that. I grabbed several of the Rapido SECR wagons as they fit nicely in that era. I will not be buying any of GWR vans simply because I have built 6 of the Parkside vans and 10 of the opens so I do not need more. I have purchased a few of the Minks and the 4 plankers because I wanted to see how they look and it means I can lay off more of the 4 plank wagons for a while.  While I appreciate the D1666 is a no brainer to do, for me a later MR open or an LNWR open would have been a better option and one I would have purchased.

 

The last few comments on buying really does show what an esoteric bunch we are!

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Craigw said:

I am one who will not be buying the D1666. 

 

My period of interest is 1919-1922 and I try to stick to that.

 

Ah well, perhaps they'll do the precursor, D663A.

[Grahams]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah well, perhaps they'll do the precursor, D663A.

The D663A is so very different in detail from the D1666 though. The D299 makes more sense. Then again, which variant would they choose? 

[Grahams]

15 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

I'm 33 and dont cover any period later than 1956. The other realistic modellers I know my age all model pre-1968 when even their parents were either not born or only young.

Although I'm 'old' (just over double your age), my interests have little to do with the era I grew up in. I remember steam engines and them being replaced by diesels but the BR era turns my brain off completely. 

It's the history of the Midland Railway and the LMS Midland Division which interests me. 

However, Rapido are in the wrong scale for me, so no D1666 purchased here. 

I remember writing in Amateur Photographer that the newly launched APS film system was a 'marketing side show' and that digital was the way it would all go. 

Well, here is my prediction for 4mm rolling stock:

Digital is the way it will go. We are already not far from being able easily to print wagons, carriages, engines, etc. 

The design work is where the skill will be. If we can find a way to control the use of 3D model files, then the future will be in selling them to people who can print at home. 

Already in filament printing, there are printers which will automatically print multi-colour objects. This will come in other forms of printing so you could have any livery on a printed wagon, also from the design. Buy it weathered if you want. 

It won't be next year but I expect it will be within 10 years. 

Scale disappears as an issue because a 3D model is easily scaleable. 

There are many ways this can go and it won't be driven by a small hobby like scale railway modelling. I'm pretty sure it will go in that direction though.

[Phil Parker]

6 minutes ago, Grahams said:

Digital is the way it will go. We are already not far from being able easily to print wagons, carriages, engines, etc. 

The design work is where the skill will be. If we can find a way to control the use of 3D model files, then the future will be in selling them to people who can print at home. 

Already in filament printing, there are printers which will automatically print multi-colour objects. This will come in other forms of printing so you could have any livery on a printed wagon, also from the design. Buy it weathered if you want. 

It won't be next year but I expect it will be within 10 years. 

Scale disappears as an issue because a 3D model is easily scaleable. 

There are many ways this can go and it won't be driven by a small hobby like scale railway modelling. I'm pretty sure it will go in that direction though.

 

BRM subscribers will have seen the video I shot at a recent 3D print trade event, where you can see some of this stuff for the high-end (read: big money) users.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

18 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

Ok, but knocking off wagon kits with new rtr has been a general theme of the past couple of decades.  Why should LMS subjects be especially unpopular?  I don't think they are unusually well represented by kits and some of what is available is not to modern standards.

It's a mystery to me too, and has been for over 50 years, when I first learned that it was essential to build it yourself to represent what was actually operating on BR(ER) at the end of steam.

 

What was required in wagons were BR standard, LMS and LNER standard designs, and a light peppering of other vehicles: LMS and LNER pre-group constituent, GW and SR, in that order. I have droned on about this before: what convinced me to stay with UK railway modelling was Bachmann's 16 tonner range, a wagon required in very large numbers for a layout centred on 1959, and for which there had never been an accurate RTR model. Why the subsequent (most welcome) LNER general merchandise open and van introductions from Bach, but no LMS equivalents which would be equally welcome, when they majored on LMS steam traction, is a question. Did they 'know something'?

[Grahams]

53 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

BRM subscribers will have seen the video I shot at a recent 3D print trade event, where you can see some of this stuff for the high-end (read: big money) users.

This Midland D663A was printed on my consumer (read: cheap) printers. Steel for axles, top spring leaves, buffer armatures and drawgeear. All other parts 3D printed. It's still on my workbench (garden table) for finish painting and weathering. The inside ironwork will also be added. 

Even five years ago the only way to make a scale model like this was a labour of skill and took many months. My kits can be built in a couple of days. 

[Flying Pig]

1 minute ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

It's a mystery to me too, and has been for over 50 years, when I first learned that it was essential to build it yourself to represent what was actually operating on BR(ER) at the end of steam.

 

What was required in wagons were BR standard, LMS and LNER standard designs, and a light peppering of other vehicles: LMS and LNER pre-group constituent, GW and SR, in that order. I have droned on about this before: what convinced me to stay with UK railway modelling was Bachmann's 16 tonner range, a wagon required in very large numbers for a layout centred on 1959, and for which there had never been an accurate RTR model. Why the subsequent (most welcome) LNER general merchandise open and van introductions from Bach, but no LMS equivalents which would be equally welcome, when they majored on LMS steam traction, is a question. Did they 'know something'?

 

I do wonder if the LNER wagons did less well than expected and killed off that line of development.  Do please continue to drone about this, because it irks me too.  My particular bugbear is the lack of any rtr representation of the LMS clasp-braked underframe (and the Parkside kit is at the top of my not to modern standards list - actually it isn't particularly good by 1970s standards - and the excellent Rumney kits are not for the beginner).  I was hoping for Bachmanm to close that hole and something to the standard of their LNER wagons would have been fine as an rtr model.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

5 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

I do wonder if the LNER wagons did less well than expected and killed off that line of development... 

My local retailer (admittedly near the ECML) was very pleased at how they shifted at time of introduction, and Bach have currently listed productions of the LNER/BR histeel open and LNER van, which suggests that there is still demand.

 

Perhaps we have to put it down to the evangelical fervour of the late Bob Essery, convincing many of the serious LMSophiles to set to and build the wagons they needed? (It must be about fifteen years ago I was in conversation with him, along the way suggesting that there should be a push for RTR OO models of the joint LMS/LNER and on to BR designs, such as Bobol D and Boplate E, and the 4W plate and twin bolster (these 4W wagons now happily available from TMC/Bachmann). 'Get on and build them' was the reply. This command led to me backdating a quantity of Bach BDA's when Hattons were offering 8 off for not very much. Just the thought makes me smile, he's much missed.)

[gwrrob]

On 11/07/2023 at 19:52, gwrrob said:

According to the updated delivery schedule these are enroute from China with a delivery of September.

 

Another open wagon or two to sort out loads for, it's never ending, we've never had it so good.

[Dunsignalling]

I concluded some time ago that the r-t-r makers avoid LMS vans simply because they can't choose which ones to make.

 

It's only a very slight exaggeration to say that every new Lot authorised seems to have been to a different diagram to that preceding it!

 

Add BR's habit of randomly adding extra diagonal strapping, and I can't say I blame them!

 

John

[Jon Harbour]

My primary interest is the GWR (1930s), but I have taken the view that both LMS and SR wagons are likely to be visitors to the area my layout will be based upon. So, given that these are common carrier wagons, I've ordered three of these LMS wagons. Assuming some more are available later, I will probably order two or three of them too! Not part of this thread, but when I ordered some of Rapido's PO wagons from the 1907 RCH range, I did try to pick ones that would be likely to be seen in my planned layout's area. They all look like great models and are relevant to my area, so I ordered them!

 

I hope the LMS DIa. 1666 wagons prove to be a great success!

 

I agree that when quality multi-colour 3D printers become mainstream we shall see an explosion of  wagon models being 3d printed. No more "why aren't they producing diagram xyz... that's what I need for my layout...

Edited August 2, 2023 by Jon Harbour

[Wickham Green too]

4 hours ago, Jon Harbour said:

... when quality multi-colour 3D printers become mainstream we shall see an explosion of  wagon models ...

Presumably with SML on the inside - like a stick of Blackpool rock ! 😮

[Compound2632]

I've been sent another photo of a D1666 fully repainted in BR grey:

 

 

This is dated 1957 and is from a photo in Maurice Earley, The Southern Scene (OPC, 1973).

 

The black painting of headstock and solebar is particularly clear here.

[Aire Head]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I've been sent another photo of a D1666 fully repainted in BR grey:

 

 

This is dated 1957 and is from a photo in Maurice Earley, The Southern Scene (OPC, 1973).

 

The black painting of headstock and solebar is particularly clear here.

Strange that I should also find myself looking at a BR grey D1666 photographed at Esholt Sewage Works sadly undated but believed to be sometime in the 1950s

[Wickham Green too]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've been sent another photo of a D1666 fully repainted in BR grey:

 

 

I'm not sure what sort of optical illusion is going on there - the body seems to be sagging at the ends but the solebar looks dead straight !

[Dunsignalling]

On 21/08/2023 at 10:03, Wickham Green too said:

I'm not sure what sort of optical illusion is going on there - the body seems to be sagging at the ends but the solebar looks dead straight !

Looks to me like it's blown up from a magazine picture and the page wasn't flat when it was copied.

[Wickham Green too]

No, it's a book and the image is right in the centre of the page width.

[Compound2632]

On 13/07/2023 at 09:55, Grahams said:

The D663A is so very different in detail from the D1666 though. The D299 makes more sense. Then again, which variant would they choose? 

 

But from Rapido's PoV, D663A has the advantage of remaining in service until c. 1958, whereas D299 was pretty well extinct by the late 30s. A greater variety of liveries, and that crucial BR steam era.

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

No, it's a book and the image is right in the centre of the page width.

Still unlikely to be flat if copied with a camera or phone, though a flat-bed scanner would avoid distortion.

 

However, there's no telling what might have happened in preparing the original to get it into the book.