Rapido OO Gauge LMS Dia1666 5-plank open

[Dunsignalling]

30 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Those are both valid points. In my case, simply because I inhabit a pre-grouping world, most of the time. 

 

Sometimes not, though:

 

 

I've given my BR-period Rapido D1666 a quick wash with grotty black, losing that pristine toy look. Here it is in company with a couple of wagons built from Cambrian kits: on the left, their D1666, intended as a posed wagon in a goods yard scene; on the right, their steel-framed D1667, still in LMS bauxite. How likely is that in 1955?

 

I also had a go at scrawking away at the inside of the top plank of the door on each side, to represent the barrow plank that, for reasons discussed earlier in this topic, Rapido have chosen not to attempt themselves:

 

 

i'm not sure how noticeable it is on the dear side; the quick lack-of-paint job on the inside makes it a bit more evident.

 

Apologies for the yellow cast to the photo. 

 

Any surviving in LMS livery by 1955? Probably a few, but definitely not in that condition.

 

Faded and flaking paint, a few bare-wood replacement planks, the "LMS" obliterated with a new (possibly freehand) M added to the corner plate, and you'd be getting there.

 

John

[Wickham Green too]

Often as not "L" & "S" obliterated but "M" retained.

[Dunsignalling]

37 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Often as not "L" & "S" obliterated but "M" retained.

Agree. I was trying to cover that variation, too, but couldn't get it to look right. 🙃

Edited September 19, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[rapidoTom]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This photo shows very well the representation of the inwards joggle of the brake vee-hanger just below the solebar. It's details like that that really make this model stand out.

 

One unprototypical point: turn a real wagon upside-down and all the floor planks would fall out!

 

I'm glad the time spent squinting at the works drawings to work out the details paid off! 

 

I'm not sure our warranty engineer would be happy when people start ringing him up to ask for spare planks when they drop theirs all over the floor...

[Compound2632]

49 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Any surviving in LMS livery by 1955? Probably a few, but definitely not in that condition.

 

Faded and flaking paint, a few bare-wood replacement planks, the "LMS" obliterated with a new (possibly freehand) M added to the corner plate, and you'd be getting there.

 

45 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Often as not "L" & "S" obliterated but "M" retained.

 

Noted - I'll see about it.

 

How many wagons got bauxite in 1946/7, I wonder? (Not counting new builds.)

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Noted - I'll see about it.

 

How many wagons got bauxite in 1946/7, I wonder? (Not counting new builds.)

I've seen a few photos that, if accurately dated,  suggest that bare wood was a thing before BR decreed it.

 

I'm guessing that many in the workshops were horrified by the idea, and carried on painting wagons as long as they could.

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Any surviving in LMS livery by 1955? Probably a few, but definitely not in that condition.

 

Faded and flaking paint, a few bare-wood replacement planks, the "LMS" obliterated with a new (possibly freehand) M added to the corner plate, and you'd be getting there.

 

John

But still more likely than a wood framed open being repainted in to BR Grey 

 

Paul

[hmrspaul]

6 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

But still more likely than a wood framed open being repainted in to BR Grey. Repainting of such open wagons into grey was specified from late 1959. 

 

Paul

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by hmrspaul

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

But still more likely than a wood framed open being repainted in to BR Grey 

 

For which we have seen a surprising amount of evidence throughout this topic.

[hmrspaul]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

For which we have seen a surprising amount of evidence throughout this topic.

Are they wood framed or the steel framed equivalent. The rules were different. I've plenty of grey painted steel framed 1667 but not of the 1666s. I do accept that there is likely to have been a local interpretation of "open wagon" as Oh they mean mineral wagons not the merchandise ones, we'll paint them.  And then who paid?

 

Paul

[Wickham Green too]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

For which we have seen a surprising amount of evidence throughout this topic.

No doubt biased by the photographer thinking "Oh how unusual - I'll take a picture of that" ! 😊

[Dunsignalling]

29 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

But still more likely than a wood framed open being repainted in to BR Grey 

 

Paul

Not fully repainted, I'd agree, but although bare timber was the BR policy, what would a repair shop do when presented with a LMS grey (or bauxite) wagon in reasonable nick for attention?

 

Sure as eggs not go to the trouble of stripping the paint off.....

Edited September 19, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Flying Pig]

35 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Noted - I'll see about it.

 

How many wagons got bauxite in 1946/7, I wonder? (Not counting new builds.)

 

Well it certainly happened.  My Three Aitch kit was painted and lettered based on a photo of a D1666 open painted bauxite reproduced in "Essery" (it was carrying coal and uprated to 13T too).

[65179]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Not fully repainted, I'd agree, but although bare timber was the BR policy, what would a repair shop do when presented with a LMS grey (or bauxite) wagon in reasonable nick for attention?

 

Sure as eggs not go to the trouble of stripping the paint off.....

 

Indeed. That's why I love this photo from David Ford's (of this parish) collection:

 

, and keep pointing to it as, although too early for the 1955 discussion, shows very much what happened in practice.

 

There are a whole host of styles of painting and patching up, e.g. the LMS open in LMS style 'unpainted' style above the Jinty/Jocko cab - delivered with LMS bauxite metal bits and bare wood, and solebar probably, but not definitely bauxite too. Of more relevance to this discussion is the MR D663A next to it. This looks to have gained LMS bauxite (although look at that solebar!) before having many of the planks replaced. The metalwork is mostly bauxite, but the touched up end stanchions are fresh LMS bauxite or at a push black/dark grey (if it had been repaired a year or too later then those stanchions would have been more likely to be light grey). This one is also one of the few and possibly one of only two wagons in view (along with the grey LMS D1828 steel van in the right background) to have gained a black panel by this point in 1950/51.

 

Everyone can play their own game of name that open for the rest!

 

Simon

[Sitham Yard]

2 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Indeed. That's why I love this photo from David Ford's (of this parish) collection:

 

, and keep pointing to it as, although too early for the 1955 discussion, shows very much what happened in practice.

 

There are a whole host of styles of painting and patching up, e.g. the LMS open in LMS style 'unpainted' style above the Jinty/Jocko cab - delivered with LMS bauxite metal bits and bare wood, and solebar probably, but not definitely bauxite too. Of more relevance to this discussion is the MR D663A next to it. This looks to have gained LMS bauxite (although look at that solebar!) before having many of the planks replaced. The metalwork is mostly bauxite, but the touched up end stanchions are fresh LMS bauxite or at a push black/dark grey (if it had been repaired a year or too later then those stanchions would have been more likely to be light grey). This one is also one of the few and possibly one of only two wagons in view (along with the grey LMS D1828 steel van in the right background) to have gained a black panel by this point in 1950/51.

 

Everyone can play their own game of name that open for the rest!

 

Simon

Do not forget that wagons were sometimes repaired using planks salvaged from wagons that were being broken up and this could be source of the dark planks on the D663A.

Andrew  

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, 65179 said:

Everyone can play their own game of name that open for the rest!

 

The lowsided wagon to the left of the pointing finger is an ex-Midland D305 8-ton drop-side wagon, one of the 4,000 built from 1909 to 1915 with independent eitherside brakes from new, with long brake levers, and spring door controllers. It seems to be reasonably uniformly in LMS bauxite apart from the top side plank and a couple of end planks.

 

What is interesting in all this is that it indicates how frequently the side and end planks of a wagon had to be replaced!

[65179]

20 minutes ago, Sitham Yard said:

Do not forget that wagons were sometimes repaired using planks salvaged from wagons that were being broken up and this could be source of the dark planks on the D663A.

Andrew  

 

It certainly could, but the uniformity of colour across the planks and corner plates (particularly when that colour appears very similar to the adjacent vehicle which does have LMS bauxite ends) coupled with the presence of new and relatively new unpainted planks makes this less likely.

 

Simon

[Aire Head]

5 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

I've plenty of grey painted steel framed 1667 but not of the 1666s.

 

The top one most certainly is and I'd say the other two are strong candidates for grey paint.

[Captain Kernow]

I've obtained a small number of these now and very nice they are. I will assess their ease of conversion to P4 shortly!

 

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

I've obtained a small number of these now and very nice they are. I will assess their ease of conversion to P4 shortly!

 

Not that I work in P4 but I did look at the brake gear with that in mind - not entirely straightforward to move it further outwards. see @AY Mod's breakfast butty photo:

 

[hmrspaul]

23 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

The top one most certainly is and I'd say the other two are strong candidates for grey paint.

Very nice. Date of photos required! I didn't say that after 1959 they didn't get painted. The BTC wrote to BR expressing concern at how awful the freight stock looked and they began to paint everything. And then we get the ridiculous 1963 plus period when everything was freight stock red. 

 

Is the second photo repaint or resheeted. Total resheeting wasn't unusual. 

Paul

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Is the second photo repaint or resheeted. Total resheeting wasn't unusual. 

 

The dark solebar is perhaps evidence that it at least has been repainted in accordance with the BR livery instructions? Unless it's the only remaining timber component left from when the wagon was repainted LMS bauxite!

 

But then what does one make of the grey solebars in the third photo?

[Aire Head]

32 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Date of photos required!

Honest answer is I can't remember sorry.

 

The best I can say is the top image is from Esholt Sewage works and has been described as "in the 1950s" .

 

I also have this screenshot of a Brush Type 2 pulling a paint D1666 which might interest people in this thread.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Aire Head
Found image

[Grahams]

On 19/09/2023 at 13:11, Compound2632 said:

One unprototypical point: turn a real wagon upside-down and all the floor planks would fall out!

I'm fairly certain the floor battens were nailed down. That is not shown on any drawings I've seen. However, the Butterley restorers have said that is what they found on their D607. They are not nailing down those on the restoration so they can more readily maintain it. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Grahams
Corrected 'sheeting' to 'battens'!

[Grahams]

On 19/09/2023 at 19:42, 65179 said:

 

Indeed. That's why I love this photo from David Ford's (of this parish) collection:

 

, and keep pointing to it as, although too early for the 1955 discussion, shows very much what happened in practice.

 

There are a whole host of styles of painting and patching up, e.g. the LMS open in LMS style 'unpainted' style above the Jinty/Jocko cab - delivered with LMS bauxite metal bits and bare wood, and solebar probably, but not definitely bauxite too. Of more relevance to this discussion is the MR D663A next to it. This looks to have gained LMS bauxite (although look at that solebar!) before having many of the planks replaced. The metalwork is mostly bauxite, but the touched up end stanchions are fresh LMS bauxite or at a push black/dark grey (if it had been repaired a year or too later then those stanchions would have been more likely to be light grey). This one is also one of the few and possibly one of only two wagons in view (along with the grey LMS D1828 steel van in the right background) to have gained a black panel by this point in 1950/51.

 

Everyone can play their own game of name that open for the rest!

 

Simon

That D663A is very interesting. It appears to have steel end stanchions and also shows no inside washer plates on the end stanchions nor on the centre strapping of the fixed side sheets. I'm not aware of many pictures of the D663A with the steel end stanchions. I wonder if they were built without the inside washer plates. It was certainly the time (early 1920s) when those were being phased out of new build wagons.