Rapido OO Gauge LMS Dia1666 5-plank open

[No Decorum]

I have some nice bread for a sandwich; what I lack is decent filling. We are told that these LMS wagons were based on Midland ones. Can the experts on here tell me if they are suitable for Midland insignia? If they are, can Rapido tell me why Midland versions aren’t amongst the liveries offered?

 

[MarkSG]

10 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

I have some nice bread for a sandwich; what I lack is decent filling. We are told that these LMS wagons were based on Midland ones. Can the experts on here tell me if they are suitable for Midland insignia? If they are, can Rapido tell me why Midland versions aren’t amongst the liveries offered?

 

I suspect the answer is upthread; Rapido have stated that they see this as a potential repeat production, given the very large number of different variants and their ubiquity meaning that people will make repeat purchases with different running numbers. So presumably MR livery is pencilled in for a later run.

(I'd like to see a factory weathered one, too, with bare planks and an overall grotty look, suitable for their last years in BR service). 

[Compound2632]

21 hours ago, 57xx said:

Why is it an interesting shade?

 

Having looked again, I've realised that I was under the misapprehension that that was an early colour photo, whereas it is actually monochrome, so any shade of bauxite would appear grey!

[Compound2632]

51 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

So presumably MR livery is pencilled in for a later run.

 

@No Decorum, I have every confidence that Rapido will not commit such a blunder. 

 

In saying that these wagons were a Midland design, Rapido mean, designed in the Derby C&W Drawing Office. The drawing is No. 5612 in the Derby C&W Drawing Register and is dated May 1923 - a scan of the copy held by the Midland Railway Study Centre can be viewed here.

 

The first batch of 1,000 were built to a lot number in the Midland series, Lot 1005, entered on 29 May 1923 - it is in fact the last entry in the Midland lot list. A new lot list covering all LMS works and outside builders was started soon after, the next batch of D1666, also built at Derby, being Lot 6. 

 

Wagons of Lot 1005, like wagons from a number of earlier lots completed in 1923 (for example the cattle wagons of Lot 987, entered on 25 October 1922) were turned out lettered LMS. It would be interesting to know exactly what happened in the first few months of 1923; whether the dimensions of the LMS lettering had been drawn up in the last few weeks of 1922 or not until some time into 1923, and what was the last wagon to emerge lettered MR! Essery, Midland Wagons, has a photo of a Midland D299 8-ton open with LMS lettering on 27 March 1923 [plate 65].

Edited November 28, 2022 by Compound2632
punctuation

[MarkSG]

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

@No Decorum, I have every confidence that Rapido will not commit such a blunder. 

 

In saying that these wagons were a Midland design, Rapido mean, designed in the Derby C&W Drawing Office. The drawing is No. 5612 in the Derby C&W Drawing Register and is dated May 1923 - a scan of the copy held by the Midland Railway Study Centre can be viewed here.

 

In which case, I retract my previous comment. Or, at least, part of it. I'd still like to see a factory weathered BR version.

Edited November 28, 2022 by MarkSG

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, No Decorum said:

I have some nice bread for a sandwich; what I lack is decent filling. We are told that these LMS wagons were based on Midland ones. Can the experts on here tell me if they are suitable for Midland insignia? If they are, can Rapido tell me why Midland versions aren’t amongst the liveries offered?

 

 

Slaters do appropriate kits.  See also this thread, whch @Compound2632 seems to have forgotten about for the minute ;)

 

 

[Compound2632]

Just now, MarkSG said:

In which case, I retract my previous comment. Or, at least, part of it. I'd still like to see a factory weathered BR version.

 

Absolutely. All of these wagons were not pristine most of the time, and the more so as time wore on! It's a RTR convention that models are presented in straight out of the paintshop condition but what one would like to see would be every model a subtly different (darker) shade of grey, for instance (for the first LMS livery, and so on for subsequent liveries)!

 

Unpainted livery would, I think, be the most challenging for the factory to produce.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Flying Pig said:

Slaters do appropriate kits.  See also this thread, which @Compound2632 seems to have forgotten about for the minute ;)

 

As you indicate, I am aware of the Slaters kits, to the extent of knowing that they do not do a 4 mm scale kit for D1666! (Or 7 mm, for that matter.) Which is why I had said nothing about them.

 

But indeed, @No Decorum could fill his sandwich with Slaters kits for Midland wagons, though what that pairing is really crying out for is forty or so 8/10/12-ton RCH 1887 and 1907 specification PO mineral wagons, if he really wants to represent the bread and butter of the Midland Railway!

 

I'll also comment that the 8-ton five-plank Midland open that Slaters do - diagram D299 - was rather on the way out by the post-Great War period of that engine and brake; the mass-production of D1666 was its final death-knell as a merchandise wagon, whilst as a mineral wagon it was increasingly being supplanted by 12-ton wagons to D607 and D673, of which there were over 10,000 by the end of the Great War.

[MarkSG]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Unpainted livery would, I think, be the most challenging for the factory to produce.

 

Yes, but that's precisely why I'd like a factory weathered version! 

 

I'm comfortable enough weathering wagons to give a generally dirty look. But, apart from picking out the odd plank in a different shade, that's generally just a wash of weathering on top of the existing livery. Completely replacing a painted finish with an unpainted finish would be a lot harder, and I've never attempted it.

It ought to be doable, though. It can't be that much harder for the manufacturer than an LNER teak finish, and Rapido seem to have pretty much nailed that. Bachmann have done some nice heavily weathered ex-PO wagons with bare planks, and I bet Rapido's designers would welcome the challenge of beating that 😀

[Compound2632]

Just now, MarkSG said:

It ought to be doable, though.

 

It's having no two the same that's the tricky bit...

[MarkSG]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It's having no two the same that's the tricky bit...

 

I'd probably only buy one, to begin with. And then if they did a second production run with a different running number and a different state of grot, I'd buy another. I've only got a shunting plank, I don't really need a lengthy rake of them.

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

I've only got a shunting plank, I don't really need a lengthy rake of them.

 

Or a longer plank...

 

But yes, I like the strategy of buying one example of each batch - if Rapido get the sense that there are, say, 500 people out there who will buy one a year until they've got a 30-wagon train, then they'll know they're in clover!

[Cwmtwrch]

On 27/11/2022 at 15:28, Compound2632 said:

My correspondent advanced arguments for the D302 (or D663A) wagon in this 28 Aug 1958 photo being in grey rather than, as I had assumed, unpainted, based on the uniformity of the grey shade, and comparison with a colour image of a grey-painted wooden wagon taken at a similar date

"Western Region Non-Passenger Trains" by Jeremy Clements pp96-9 has a sequence of photos by Dick Riley from15/7/58 of a goods leaving Totnes and climbing Rattery with the first vehicle being M84995, which has vertical bracing between door and end, not diagonal, so I assume it to be MR rather than LMS. The interior is noticeably darker than the exterior, the ironwork is rusty, but the solebar seems to be the same colour as the body, so it looks as though the wagon had been painted several years earlier. It has steel end uprights.

 

MR M38881, which had wood uprights at the ends, was involved in a derailment at Branches Fork Junction 7/5/55, the consequences of which were photographed - it is definitely not painted, but the number, tare, capacity and bottom door "\/" are on black patches and look quite recent.

[No Decorum]

51 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As you indicate, I am aware of the Slaters kits, to the extent of knowing that they do not do a 4 mm scale kit for D1666! (Or 7 mm, for that matter.) Which is why I had said nothing about them.

 

But indeed, @No Decorum could fill his sandwich with Slaters kits for Midland wagons, though what that pairing is really crying out for is forty or so 8/10/12-ton RCH 1887 and 1907 specification PO mineral wagons, if he really wants to represent the bread and butter of the Midland Railway!

 

I'll also comment that the 8-ton five-plank Midland open that Slaters do - diagram D299 - was rather on the way out by the post-Great War period of that engine and brake; the mass-production of D1666 was its final death-knell as a merchandise wagon, whilst as a mineral wagon it was increasingly being supplanted by 12-ton wagons to D607 and D673, of which there were over 10,000 by the end of the Great War.

Very useful information even if it isn’t quite what I wanted to hear; many thanks. I have said before that earlier RCH RTR wagons would be very welcome. As these LMS wagons are intended to be, I should think that they would go on and on selling – and for a lot less initial outlay than a locomotive or a coach.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, MarkSG said:

... I'm comfortable enough weathering wagons to give a generally dirty look. ... generally just a wash of weathering on top of the existing livery. ...

Try mixing some of the basic body colour into your wash - or start by dry-brushing with body colour .... either will tone-down the lettering so it looks worn.

[Aire Head]

On 28/11/2022 at 17:21, Compound2632 said:

Unpainted livery would, I think, be the most challenging for the factory to produce.

 

From experience yes I have managed freshly replaced planks however to depict timber that has been exposed to the elements for some time I have still to come up with a satisfactory method of depicting this on models.

 

 

Complex weathering is something that is hard to replicate in a factory which is why I tend to be skeptical of "weathered" models direct from manufacturers as usually it just means a thick stripe of yellowish brown slapped on with an airbrush across the bottom half of the item in question.

[41516]

4 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

I have still to come up with a satisfactory method of depicting this on models.

 

I'm glad I'm not alone!

 

While not a D1666, your model reminds me of a screengrab I took as reference - from "Cromford and High Peak Railway 1 -The Route Explored" on Youtube.  New wood, old wood, replacements in grey perhaps...

[Aire Head]

9 minutes ago, 41516 said:

I'm glad I'm not alone!

 

The closest I've ever come was quite by accident and could probably never be replicated!t

These are a pair of Dapol wooden minerals which came supplied in BR grey. Weathering didn't go to plan due to a varnish application going wrong so I had to strip them back and start again and the second time around ended up with something that has a look of weathered unpainted wood but still isn't 100% to me.

 

On another note that 6 plank in your photo is very interesting and somethings I'm tempted to have a go at 😅

[41516]

It's on my list - E172629.  Coupled next to a newly repainted BR 1/044 Hybar for those who like contrast!

 

Looks very much like weathered grey rather than dirty bare wood in other shots, like this one.

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by 41516

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

 

From experience yes I have managed freshly replaced planks however to depict timber that has been exposed to the elements for some time I have still to come up with a satisfactory method of depicting this on models.

 

 

Complex weathering is something that is hard to replicate in a factory which is why I tend to be skeptical of "weathered" models direct from manufacturers as usually it just means a thick stripe of yellowish brown slapped on with an airbrush across the bottom half of the item in question.

It sounds completely wrong, but some people who do achieve quite good results at this have stated they mix tiny amounts of gunmetal metallic in with the various shades of buff they use over most planks.

 

Haven't yet tried it for myself, but I have recently bought a tinlet of the stuff with it in mind.

 

John

[Flying Pig]

So what's the answer for a post-nationalisation D1666? Rapido seem to have chosen grey paint even though it isn't correct for many vehicles.  Would plain brownish grey with ironwork in a dark rust colour be acceptable as a base for weathering?  That would at least be within the bounds of economical production.

 

[41516]

I think that would probably be the easiest solution, a warm browner tone of grey for the body and the ironwork picked out in a darker, ruster shade for those supposed to be unpainted.

Edit - Or as an alternative, one with the ironwork only freshly repainted in freight grey.

Edited November 30, 2022 by 41516

[Flying Pig]

38 minutes ago, 41516 said:

I think that would probably be the easiest solution, a warm browner tone of grey for the body and the ironwork picked out in a darker, ruster shade for those supposed to be unpainted.

Edit - Or as an alternative, one with the ironwork only freshly repainted in freight grey.

 

Six of one... really.  Not hard to adjust either way.

[rapidoTom]

Hi all,

 

Thanks for the positive comments, always nice when one of our projects goes down well! To answer a few of the questions so far:

 

MR livery - unfortunately they were outshopped a little too late and emerged in LMS livery instead. I might repaint one of my own models as a "what if" but we're not looking at adding it to the range.

 

Couplings - those who prefer three-links may be interested to know that the NEM coupling mounts are designed to be removable so that there's no block hanging under the wagon - see attached pic (an engineering sample that has been heavily handled, hence the wonky coupling hook!)

 

Variants of LMS grey - I've forwarded the comments to our artwork guys, we'll see what they say. Matching greys in particular is tricky, as our liveries are taken from photos wherever possible.

 

Lastly, a little coincidence - a couple of weeks after finishing the CAD for this wagon, I went to the Bucks Railway Centre gala (not for work reasons, don't get too excited!) and happened across a wagon of "unidentified origin" that I'm 95% sure is a d1666. I've not been able to confirm it, but the only difference I can see is the internal vertical ironwork in the corners seemed to be missing. I didn't have a tape measure to check the dimensions. If anyone has more concrete info on that I'd be interested to know - we have included it as a livery available for purchase (it was a Chatham Dockyard internal user wagon, donated to preservation in 2002).

 

That also begs the question (assuming it is a d1666) - at least one made it into industrial/military use, so presumably many did. Does anyone know of any other industries they may have ended up in? We'd be particularly interested if you had photos!

 

Cheers,

Tom

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, rapidoTom said:

Couplings - those who prefer three-links may be interested to know that the NEM coupling mounts are designed to be removable so that there's no block hanging under the wagon - see attached pic 

 

I like the representation of the drawgear cradle etc. and buffer springs. The drawgear moulding will get in the way if one wants to add Smiths or Slaters three-links, with sprung drawhook.

 

1 hour ago, rapidoTom said:

Lastly, a little coincidence - a couple of weeks after finishing the CAD for this wagon, I went to the Bucks Railway Centre gala (not for work reasons, don't get too excited!) and happened across a wagon of "unidentified origin" that I'm 95% sure is a d1666. I've not been able to confirm it, but the only difference I can see is the internal vertical ironwork in the corners seemed to be missing. I didn't have a tape measure to check the dimensions. If anyone has more concrete info on that I'd be interested to know - we have included it as a livery available for purchase (it was a Chatham Dockyard internal user wagon, donated to preservation in 2002).

 

That also begs the question (assuming it is a d1666) - at least one made it into industrial/military use, so presumably many did. Does anyone know of any other industries they may have ended up in? We'd be particularly interested if you had photos!

 

The vehicle described as "Coal Wagon No. 84" on their website? https://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/open84.htm

I agree it's certainly not "probably dating back to pre-First World War" as described there, and it certainly does look very D1666-ish.

I've been looking at sales of surplus Midland wagons in the two decades up to grouping; because these were financial transactions they required approval at Board Committee level and so are recorded in the Carriage & Wagon Committee minute books at The National Archives. I presume this would have continued in LMS days, so one could trawl through the relevant minute books, but I doubt that any D1666 would have been sold off in this period. I don't know what the procedure would be in BR days.