Rapido OO Gauge LMS Dia1666 5-plank open

[rapidoTom]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

The vehicle described as "Coal Wagon No. 84" on their website?

 

That's the one. A few ex-LMS wagons/vans seemed to end up at Chatham Dockyard, fortunately allowing them to reach preservation later on. I'd suggest that the admiralty got them in bulk for multiple sites during the war, I'm not sure they would have ended up that far south in BR days. Mere speculation, mind!

 

No.84 is an "independent brakes on each side" vehicle so fits the tooling we have. Other late examples, there is a photo of what I think is a d1666 at Kings Lynn docks in 1980, but it appears to be Morton braked. I think there were a few at Derby works too, but I've not been able to unearth enough info on them to be sure.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

... The vehicle described as "Coal Wagon No. 84" on their website? https://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/open84.htm

I agree it's certainly not "probably dating back to pre-First World War" as described there, and it certainly does look very D1666-ish. ...

It could, possibly, be as old as they say - but updated with RCH 1923 buffers and axleboxes at some time ...... the end overhang ( from wheel face to headstock ) suggests to me, though, that it's a 17'6'' frame ( assuming 9'0'' wb ) so a LMS dia.1666 looks pretty likely. 🙂 ( I wonder if anything's cast on the buffers an' boxes ? )

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, rapidoTom said:

I'm not sure they would have ended up that far south in BR days.

 

If in revenue service they could turn up absolutely anywhere even before BR days as they were common user stock.

[The Johnster]

Even before common user pool days, it would have been possible to see one more or less anywhere in the UK, loaded to a destination off the LMS.  If there was no booked return load for it and one could not be found, it would be sent back empty to the LMS by the next available service, which may well not have been a direct one from smaller yards, so it would possibly spend several days away from it's own railway, and be delivered back to it's own metals at a different place from where it left them. 

 

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Even before common user pool days

 

The pooling of ordinary open wagons pre-dates the introduction of D1666 by some six or seven years, having been progressively introduced in the middle of the Great War.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Compound2632
sp.

[Wickham Green too]

15 hours ago, rapidoTom said:

... I'd suggest that the admiralty got them in bulk for multiple sites during the war, ...

More likely to have been acquired from B.R. post war ...... don't forget Ashford was churning out thousands of open wagons for the military ( and home railways ) during the conflict and a few could have easily been diverted to Chatham if required. [ need I reiterate that S.R. dia.1375 wagons carried W.D., Southern, L.M.S. and N.E liveries before nationalisation ? - then 600 more were built with 'B' prefix as dia.1/34 ...... currently not available as a ready-to-run model. ]

[rapidoTom]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

need I reiterate that S.R. dia.1375 wagons carried W.D., Southern, L.M.S. and N.E liveries before nationalisation ? - then 600 more were built with 'B' prefix as dia.1/34 ...... currently not available as a ready-to-run model

 

That sounds awfully like a product suggestion... these things get lost if left on RMweb (if left to my memory) but if you pop it in here: https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product-suggestion/ then we might listen! There are a few boxes for extra details such as livery variations and availability of works drawings, the more info we get the more likely we are to consider it.

[hmrspaul]

18 hours ago, rapidoTom said:

 

 

 

No.84 is an "independent brakes on each side" vehicle so fits the tooling we have. Other late examples, there is a photo of what I think is a d1666 at Kings Lynn docks in 1980, but it appears to be Morton braked. I think there were a few at Derby works too, but I've not been able to unearth enough info on them to be sure.

If it is this one it has independent brake https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen/e2aa63009

 

Paul

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, rapidoTom said:

 

That sounds awfully like a product suggestion... these things get lost if left on RMweb (if left to my memory) but if you pop it in here: https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product-suggestion/ then we might listen! There are a few boxes for extra details such as livery variations and availability of works drawings, the more info we get the more likely we are to consider it.

'Our group has measured and drawn 034 but it hasn't been published and will be on drawing film and not computerised, I believe. 

 

Certainly a very useful, numerous, wagon. 

 

Paul

[57xx]

23 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

It could, possibly, be as old as they say - but updated with RCH 1923 buffers and axleboxes at some time ...... the end overhang ( from wheel face to headstock ) suggests to me, though, that it's a 17'6'' frame ( assuming 9'0'' wb ) so a LMS dia.1666 looks pretty likely. 🙂 ( I wonder if anything's cast on the buffers an' boxes ? )

 

It looks very D1666 to me, it has all the hallmarks there.

[57xx]

On 30/11/2022 at 14:14, Dunsignalling said:

It sounds completely wrong, but some people who do achieve quite good results at this have stated they mix tiny amounts of gunmetal metallic in with the various shades of buff they use over most planks.

 

This is exactly what I have been doing for a while now after observing sun bleached planks. 

[Aire Head]

8 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

need I reiterate that S.R. dia.1375 wagons carried W.D., Southern, L.M.S. and N.E liveries before nationalisation

Were these LMS Diagram D2151?

[Pre Grouping fan]

7 hours ago, rapidoTom said:

 

That sounds awfully like a product suggestion... these things get lost if left on RMweb (if left to my memory) but if you pop it in here: https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product-suggestion/ then we might listen! There are a few boxes for extra details such as livery variations and availability of works drawings, the more info we get the more likely we are to consider it.

 

Definitely one Diagram I would support having been involved in the major rebuild of a 1946 built example on the Bluebell.

[Wickham Green too]

50 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

Were these LMS Diagram D2151?

Diagram 2151  applies to the 144 + 14 'Ministry' wagons acquired by B.R. in 1949 and given numbers M360120-263/358-71. L.M.S. wagons 417610-8074 had also been built at Ashford and should be identical - though included within Diagram 2094 !

 

39 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

Definitely one Diagram I would support having been involved in the major rebuild of a 1946 built example on the Bluebell.

Yes - a major rebuild !

[Aire Head]

6 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

though included within Diagram 2094 !

I have D2094 as a modest 3775 wagons built at Derby and Wolverton only including 417610-418074

[BenL]

10 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

 need I reiterate that S.R. dia.1375 wagons carried W.D., Southern, L.M.S. and N.E liveries before nationalisation ? - then 600 more were built with 'B' prefix as dia.1/34 ...... currently not available as a ready-to-run model. ]

A cracking suggestion in my humble opinion but does anyone know of where to find a pic of one in SR livery? I’ve certainly never been able to find one to use a basis for a model.

[Pre Grouping fan]

17 minutes ago, BenL said:

A cracking suggestion in my humble opinion but does anyone know of where to find a pic of one in SR livery? I’ve certainly never been able to find one to use a basis for a model.

 

Depends if you mean as built with unpainted timber or later on when they did get painted. 

[57xx]

53 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Diagram 2151  applies to the 144 + 14 'Ministry' wagons acquired by B.R. in 1949 and given numbers M360120-263/358-71. L.M.S. wagons 417610-8074 had also been built at Ashford and should be identical - though included within Diagram 2094 !

 

Yes - a major rebuild !

 

I hope the buffers got put back on the right way up. 🙂

[BenL]

2 hours ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

 

Depends if you mean as built with unpainted timber or later on when they did get painted. 

As built (how was the lettering arranged?), and were even those built before 1942 out shopped with the timber unpainted?

[Wickham Green too]

13 hours ago, Aire Head said:

I have D2094 as a modest 3775 wagons built at Derby and Wolverton only including 417610-418074

The LMS were very good at claiming they'd built vehicles that had originated elsewhere - or before the LMS came into existence !   This batch of wagons were built at Ashford under the Southern's HOO A2533 authorised 4/5/43 and completed by August 1944. The very next batch, A2534, was for the LNER and comprised open wagons 262849-3223 ( authorised the same day, completed 10/44 ) : 263092 is illustrated  in Tatlow 4A and is clearly of LMS design (!) - so I'd guess that the LMS batch were, indeed, to dia.2094 rather than Southern dia.1375.

 

10 hours ago, BenL said:

As built (how was the lettering arranged?), and were even those built before 1942 out shopped with the timber unpainted?

LNER No.262463 is illustrated in Tatlow 4A & Southern Wagons 4 and shows how the livery was applied in 1944 - no doubt the Southern livery would have been similar.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Wickham Green too

[BenL]

28 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

‘LNER No.262463 is illustrated in Tatlow 4A & Southern Wagons 4 and shows how the livery was applied in 1944 - no doubt the Southern livery would have been similar.’

 

Thanks, I’ve seen that pic and the line drawing of dia 1375 in the Southern book, which arranges the SR lettering the same way as the NE lettering in the photo. But it would just be nice to have the assumption proved that the SR layout was the same as that applied to the NE equivalent.

And was the metal work SR brown rather than what looks like NE grey? Was the patch the lettering was put on black like on the NE version or SR brown? And what about the very earliest dia 1375 built from Jan 1940? I suspect they may have been fully painted with post-36 lettering before the austerity unpainted timber and smaller lettering was introduced in 42.

Edited December 4, 2022 by BenL

[gwrrob]

With five different versions offered in BR grey here can anyone enlighten me which one would be suitable for a mid 50s goods train.

 

https://derails.co.uk/937010-Rapido-BR-Grey-Open?search=rapido 93701

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, BenL said:

... But it would just be nice to have the assumption proved that the SR layout was the same as that applied to the NE equivalent. ...

Yes, it's an assumption - but I can think of absolutely no reason for the same paint shop to treat one batch of wagons differently from another ..... for example, it's clear from photos of the vans built for the Great Western that a Southern painting style was adopted there - with everything below the solebar black.

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

With five different versions offered in BR grey here can anyone enlighten me which one would be suitable for a mid 50s goods train.

 

All of them. 

[SteamingWales]

34 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

With five different versions offered in BR grey here can anyone enlighten me which one would be suitable for a mid 50s goods train.

 

https://derails.co.uk/937010-Rapido-BR-Grey-Open?search=rapido 93701

 

I'll second that question

 

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

All of them. 

 

How relevant is SKU 014. Doesn't it have a departmental number DM29719 or am I getting that completely wrong?

 

Also what does the CCE stand for on the side of one of the BR wagons. The only CCE I know is the Cambrian Coast Express!