Rapido OO Gauge LMS Dia1666 5-plank open

[Compound2632]

Thinking, not thining!

[Dunsignalling]

Never mind D.1666 being an essential for LMS/LMR layouts, with 50,000-odd built, and designated as common-user from new, there can hardly have been a goods yard in the country that didn't contain at least one, most of the time.

 

It's good to see that Rapido consider this to be one for regular production over time. It's as much a staple for running convincing goods trains as 16T steel mineral wagons or RCH 7/8 planks.

 

I've just pre-ordered the two most directly relevant to me for now, but if they turn out as well as Rapido's SECR wagons, the appearance and running quality will have me progressively replacing my kit-built ones as more that fit my period become available without a need to renumber. That process becomes increasingly bothersome the older I get!

 

John

[MartinTrucks]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

For now... Talking to the guys on the Rapido stand, I gathered that their thining is that this is a model that can run and run.

 

 

I'm not sure I'd see the one as more familiar than the other?

 

The change you mention was followed within a couple of years by the change to bauxite, in May 1936. I wonder how many D1666s would have been repainted in that period? They were built at a steady rate over the period 1923-1930. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that one believes that wagons were repainted on average once every seven years.* Then wagons built in the period 1927 to early 1929 might be repainted in the later shade of grey, roughly two-sevenths of the D1666 fleet, at most.

 

A much greater variation in the shade of grey would arise from the chemical weathering of the white lead-based grey paint used up to the change to zinc white.

 

*I don't, myself; I think it more likely that the first time most of these wagons saw fresh paint it would have been bauxite; I would not be surprised if many of them received the 1936-style lettering without a repaint. 

As you say, in excess of 15,000 of these wagons *might* have been repainted in the later LMS grey. However, just because there is not a photo of one (hardly surprising as most photos taken of wagons in that era are official ones) in Essery's LMS Wagons Vol.1, that does not mean that *none* of the 15,000 plus wagons were repainted either!

 

My original post was purely to remind those who may not know (and even though you and I know, there are many who do not) that there were two distinct LMS wagon greys.

Regards,

Martin

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

A very useful wagon, but not quite lasting long enough for my 20 years into BR time frame I think, so my hook is well and truly tentered for a D1667 now that Rapido have "discovered" LMS wagons!

 

Mike.

[Aire Head]

5 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

A very useful wagon, but not quite lasting long enough for my 20 years into BR time frame I think, so my hook is well and truly tentered for a D1667 now that Rapido have "discovered" LMS wagons!

 

Mike.

 

Not at all!

 

 

M113012 is here still kicking around in 1967, not for much longer though I suspect.

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

Just now, Aire Head said:

 

Not at all!

 

 

M113012 is here still kicking around in 1967, not for much longer though I suspect.

 

 

 

Thanks, but, close but no cigar!

My period is 68 to 73, there might have been one rotting away in a corner so I might have just the one, but in enough numbers to justify a few?

 

Mike.

[Aire Head]

Just now, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Thanks, but, close but no cigar!

My period is 68 to 73, there might have been one rotting away in a corner so I might have just the one, but in enough numbers to justify a few?

 

Mike.

 

Probably not but then again by that point the D1667s would probably be in the same situation given they were 9' wb Unfitted wagons. Any survivors probably being in Departmental use same as with any D1666s

[Enterprisingwestern]

3 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Probably not but then again by that point the D1667s would probably be in the same situation given they were 9' wb Unfitted wagons. Any survivors probably being in Departmental use same as with any D1666s

 

Oh yes, ballast wagons, now you're talking!

 

Mike.

[Aire Head]

9 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Oh yes, ballast wagons, now you're talking!

 

Mike.

 

I think your in some luck. One of the D1666s is marked "on loan to CCE" and another has a DM prefix!

[2750Papyrus]

So pleased to see accurate steam-age vehicles becoming available, particularly LMS.

 

I am slowly working my way through my kit backlog but these are all of LNER vehicles.  My goods trains are not representative of "common user" make-ups and, whilst quality SR and GWR wagons are becoming available, their numbers would be small compared those of the LMS and LNER. 

 

May we hope for a van soon?

[TrevorP1]

 

 

2 minutes ago, 2750Papyrus said:

 

May we hope for a van soon?

A cattle wagon would be nice too…

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, MartinTrucks said:

As you say, in excess of 15,000 of these wagons *might* have been repainted in the later LMS grey. However, just because there is not a photo of one (hardly surprising as most photos taken of wagons in that era are official ones) in Essery's LMS Wagons Vol.1, that does not mean that *none* of the 15,000 plus wagons were repainted either!

 

My original post was purely to remind those who may not know (and even though you and I know, there are many who do not) that there were two distinct LMS wagon greys.

 

What provoked me (mildly) was the suggestion that the later grey was more familiar and the earlier less so, which seemed a bit strange to me - for example, based on existing RTR models in pre-1936 livery. But I do approach LMS wagons from the direction of the pre-grouping period rather than from the direction of the post-nationalisation period.

 

I'm sure you are right that a good number could well have been repainted in the later grey in the run-up to the change to bauxite but I very much doubt that one can distinguish between the two shades of grey in photographs - though a really good photo where one could read the paint date could be conclusive. But did all wagon repair shops adopt the second shade of grey at the same time, or at all?

[57xx]

12 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

Strangely a D1667 would still mean a retool due to the differences in the corner plates. I never noticed it until I was looking at converting a 7mm D1667 into a D1666.

 

Not only that, the curb rail is a different height so the outer body height, strapping, door hinge location etc is all slightly different. It's not just a straight body swap onto a steel chassis.

[57xx]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This has to be the RTR announcement of the year. No GWR BLT should be without three or four.

 

Surely you mean, no layout, any region, any time from 1923 to well into post nationalisation? At minimum.

[Compound2632]

51 minutes ago, 57xx said:

Surely you mean, no layout, any region, any time from 1923 to well into post nationalisation? At minimum.

 

Of course!

 

And of course I was teasing: my remark was loaded against all those charming 1930s GWR BLTs one sees where the apple trees are in blossom and the strawberries are ripe and every wagon carries the letters GW - not only rose-tinted spectacles but lack of historical understanding. But at least now they can have authentic B sets!

[hmrspaul]

We can only hope that Rapido understand that wood framed open wagons were not to be repainted by BR - except metalwork - until 1959 and few would have been repainted after then. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen/e1e1b31b9  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen/e2aa63009

 

Paul

[Compound2632]

Just now, hmrspaul said:

We can only hope that Rapido understand that wood framed open wagons were not to be repainted by BR - except metalwork - until 1959 and few would have been repainted after then. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen/e1e1b31b9  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen/e2aa63009

 

That's interesting in the context of an off-RMWeb discussion I've had about late-surviving Midland D302 wagons (the immediate precursors of LMS D1666). My correspondent advanced arguments for the D302 (or D663A) wagon in this 28 Aug 1958 photo being in grey rather than, as I had assumed, unpainted, based on the uniformity of the grey shade, and comparison with a colour image of a grey-painted wooden wagon taken at a similar date:

 

 

[Embedded link to Flickr.]

 

But the 1950s is well outside by comfort zone as far as wagons go, so I will happily defer to more expert judgement.

[Flying Pig]

19 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

We can only hope that Rapido understand that wood framed open wagons were not to be repainted by BR - except metalwork - until 1959 and few would have been repainted after then. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen/e1e1b31b9  https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen/e2aa63009

 

Paul

 

Well @rapidoandy seems to be reading these threads so may respond on here. 

[hmrspaul]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's interesting in the context of an off-RMWeb discussion I've had about late-surviving Midland D302 wagons (the immediate precursors of LMS D1666). My correspondent advanced arguments for the D302 (or D663A) wagon in this 28 Aug 1958 photo being in grey rather than, as I had assumed, unpainted, based on the uniformity of the grey shade, and comparison with a colour image of a grey-painted wooden wagon taken at a similar date:

 

 

 

[Embedded link to Flickr.]

 

But the 1950s is well outside by comfort zone as far as wagons go, so I will happily defer to more expert judgement.

Always difficult, I'm the first to acknowledge that BR just couldn't keep control on the hundreds of workshops that might repair or repaint a wagon. And my files have them almost screaming not to paint these unfit, wood framed open wagons. But, to me the dark corner plates suggests that they are rusted and the wood is unpainted. It may even have been replanked, but they still wouldn't have painted them. Not really an old wagon in 1958 (35 to 40 years). I'm not sure how you can differentiate it from the later D663A, as the end isn't sufficiently exposed. It looks like the LMS wasn't using much paint on a lot of these wagons - even with large writing. And look how consistent the unpainted wood of Plate 103 is, with a dark corner plate. 

 

Paul

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, hmrspaul said:

Always difficult, I'm the first to acknowledge that BR just couldn't keep control on the hundreds of workshops that might repair or repaint a wagon. And my files have them almost screaming not to paint these unfit, wood framed open wagons.

 

That something has to be repeatedly forbidden is always good evidence that it was happening!

 

2 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

But, to me the dark corner plates suggests that they are rusted and the wood is unpainted. It may even have been replanked, but they still wouldn't have painted them.

 

That was my instinctive reaction. We know, I think, that ironwork at least was painted (precisely to prevent it rusting). But my correspondent had a colour photograph where the ironwork on a clearly grey-painted wagon stood out just as clearly. I'll be interested in what he has to say in response to this discussion. 

 

6 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Not really an old wagon in 1958 (35 to 40 years).

 

My correspondent says there was a general cull of remaining pre-grouping wagons from revenue service in 1958...

 

7 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

I'm not sure how you can differentiate it from the later D663A, as the end isn't sufficiently exposed.

 

I don't claim to be able to distinguish between D302 and D663A; research by @Grahams has muddied the waters as to what dimensional differences there were, if any; it seems doubtful whether wood end pillars vs. steel T-section stanchions is actually the distinguishing feature, or at least, some wagons in lots ascribed to D663A probably had wood end pillars. It's an area for further study. (Along with being a drift OT here!)

 

11 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

It looks like the LMS wasn't using much paint on a lot of these wagons - even with large writing. And look how consistent the unpainted wood of Plate 103 is, with a dark corner plate. 

 

Quite so, and plate 101 shows a wagon in grimy first LMS livery, photographed c. 1936, with MR still plainly visible, while plate 104, also c. 1936, shows a wagon with MR still just visible and no evidence of LMS markings [R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 1 pp. 75-76 (OPC, 1980).]

 

To return to D1666, I see these photos as supporting my argument to @MartinTrucks that repaints of 1923-1930 built wagons in the 1934-36 period should not be taken for granted!

[gwrrob]

Seen at the Warley show.

 

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That something has to be repeatedly forbidden is always good evidence that it was happening!

Totally agree, but whom paid for it, is what I don't understand. If BR instructions were so clear (and they were) how would the workshop get paid for doing something they shouldn't have done?

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My correspondent says there was a general cull of remaining pre-grouping wagons from revenue service in 1958...

 

Umm. They were culling pre-group wagons from 1948. They had very detailed statistics on the age of the fleet and steadily worked through them. 1958 was when the modernisation plan kicked in, so is a reasonable date to suggest as a real tightening - BR were building large numbers of new wagons at that time - Conflat As and Minerals by the tens of thousands.

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I don't claim to be able to distinguish between D302 and D663A; research by @Grahams has muddied the waters as to what dimensional differences there were, if any; it seems doubtful whether wood end pillars vs. steel T-section stanchions is actually the distinguishing feature, or at least, some wagons in lots ascribed to D663A probably had wood end pillars. It's an area for further study. (Along with being a drift OT here!)

But not discernible on that photo. 

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Quite so, and plate 101 shows a wagon in grimy first LMS livery, photographed c. 1936, with MR still plainly visible, while plate 104, also c. 1936, shows a wagon with MR still just visible and no evidence of LMS markings [R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 1 pp. 75-76 (OPC, 1980).]

That is why I said they weren't too bothered about painting wagons. 

And Essery LMS wagon also draws attention to very different colours appearing on newly painted wagons quite early in the LMS history. 

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

To return to D1666, I see these photos as supporting my argument to @MartinTrucks that repaints of 1923-1930 built wagons in the 1934-36 period should not be taken for granted!

But, I do have a D1666 with austerity lettering and presumable bauxite https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen/e9ea76eb

 

Paul

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, hmrspaul said:

But, I do have a D1666 with austerity lettering and presumable bauxite https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen/e9ea76eb

 

Now, allowing for grime and early colour photography, that's an interesting shade of bauxite. I suppose the photo was taken to illustrate the consequence of poor loading...

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

Totally agree, but whom paid for it, is what I don't understand. If BR instructions were so clear (and they were) how would the workshop get paid for doing something they shouldn't have done?

 

 

Umm. They were culling pre-group wagons from 1948. They had very detailed statistics on the age of the fleet and steadily worked through them. 1958 was when the modernisation plan kicked in, so is a reasonable date to suggest as a real tightening - BR were building large numbers of new wagons at that time - Conflat As and Minerals by the tens of thousands.

 

But not discernible on that photo. 

 

That is why I said they weren't too bothered about painting wagons. 

And Essery LMS wagon also draws attention to very different colours appearing on newly painted wagons quite early in the LMS history. 

 

But, I do have a D1666 with austerity lettering and presumable bauxite https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen/e9ea76eb

 

Paul

Only a suspicion, but my instinct is that vans due for paint but not in great need of it might only get one coat with the surplus (material and time) diverted to opens that were decreed to be left as bare wood.

 

Certainly, painted wagons that should not have been don't seem to have been especially rare before the instruction was rescinded in 1959.

 

That suggests staff (and, by inference, managers) in at least some wagon shops disliked the policy and would circumvent it if the opportunity presented itself.

 

John

Edited November 27, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[57xx]

48 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Now, allowing for grime and early colour photography, that's an interesting shade of bauxite. I suppose the photo was taken to illustrate the consequence of poor loading...

 

Why is it an interesting shade?