Hornby 2023 Speculation?

[frobisher]

Just now, scouse889 said:

Indeed. The ex-Lima 67 was in the main range until Hornby did their de novo SD 67. This year the ex-Lima model joins the train set/Railroad range.

 

The Limby 67 has the advantage of being a tooling that was relatively new (and pretty damn good for Lima) when Hornby got it, and relatively lightly used after they did as their new tooling came very quickly thereafter.

[Mark Lilley]

I have little doubt that TT120 will prove to be a financial disaster for Hornby and might even sink the company, so we should enjoy what we have for now as the future may well be bleak.

I would be very surprised if they produce much in the way of new OO steam, or diesel locos, as what would really be a great seller?

Most of what is currently produced, including the 8F is already of a fairly good quality, so why spend £250..ish on a new model that is only marginally better?

What would I like to see? a Maunsell U, which could easily lead to a River class and a U1 variant, plus a Standard Class 3 mogul, but I don't think that that will happen.

[Hroth]

43 minutes ago, Mark Lilley said:

I have little doubt that TT120 will prove to be a financial disaster for Hornby and might even sink the company, so we should enjoy what we have for now as the future may well be bleak.

I would be very surprised if they produce much in the way of new OO steam, or diesel locos, as what would really be a great seller?

Most of what is currently produced, including the 8F is already of a fairly good quality, so why spend £250..ish on a new model that is only marginally better?

What would I like to see? a Maunsell U, which could easily lead to a River class and a U1 variant, plus a Standard Class 3 mogul, but I don't think that that will happen.

 

A cheerful beggar ain't ya?

 

[Mr chapman]

I remember reading in a book a couple of years ago about the need to stamp out 00 before it takes hold. It's never going to take off and it just looks wrong. I think the open letter was published in the late 40's or early 50's. How did that work out? 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Mark Lilley said:

I

Most of what is currently produced, includin the 8F is already of a fairly good quality, so why spend £250..ish on a new model that is only marginally better?

What would I like to see? a Maunsell U, which could easily lead to a River class and a U1 variant, plus a Standard Class 3 mogul, but I don't think that that will happen.

Yet another southernista popping up demanding LMS is ignored and yet another Southern loco substituted… its bad enough with Hornbys LNER and a general manufacturer interest in plain black J Goods engines.

 

😀

Theres a lot more to the LMS than end of steam stuff.

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by adb968008

[Mark Saunders]

1 minute ago, Mr chapman said:

I remember reading in a book a couple of years ago about the need to stamp out 00 before it takes hold. It's never going to take off and it just looks wrong. I think the open letter was published in the late 40's or early 50's. How did that work out? 

Rather like Beta v VHS …

[Dunsignalling]

42 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

A cheerful beggar ain't ya?

 

We're aaaall doooomed! 

[adb968008]

1 minute ago, Mark Saunders said:

Rather like Beta v VHS …

But in the UKs case, Beta won.

 

The rest of the world chose HO.

[zigzag]

My guess is that it may be the turn of the LMS to get some new/retools ( we have the turbomotive & black 5 in the pipeline) and I can foresee 

 

A retool 8F

A new tool 2-6-2 tank

and an outside bet on a Jubilee 

 

Could we also see a collector edition for each of big 4 to mark the centenary of the grouping, perhaps thses may be Dublo branded or possibly train packs with a few coaches 

 

Not much in the offing for BR diesel/electrics Im afraid, and BR Blue will continue to be ignored*

 

* I get the impression that SK is not a rail enthusiast as such but is a model rail enthusiast/salesman, hence open goals are continue to be ignored/not expolited to the full

 

 

[adb968008]

On 27/12/2022 at 13:58, Ravenser said:

 

 

 

 

But I'm very struck by the fact that Hornby choose to produce their ex Lima Railroad 31 far more often than they do their own high-spec "full-fat" 31 . This suggests strongly that it sells in much higher volume and generates more profit as a use of the production slots.

 

or was it because they were so cheap at the time people bought them for their chassis to upgrade their Lima ones, and took the TTS chip as well.

 

They were £50 TTS at the time, you could get £20 for your old Lima chassis, and a £10 for the TTS loco body / box), meaning a full upgrade to DCC sound cost you a tenner, if you sold the chip, your upgrade actually paid you back!

I blatently upgraded armfuls of my 31/37/47’s through this process.
 

 

On 27/12/2022 at 13:58, Ravenser said:

 

So , in the first instance I reckon Hornby will simply keep producing from their existing tooling. They might remove working fans and seal opening doors to cut production costs, but that would be all.  We are surely due a re-run of the SR Maunsell EMUs - I bet they will sell for much less than the new Bachmann 158.

 

YMS.

( Yet more southern)

🥶
 

we need to level up (bring down the south to northern standards).

 

5 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

The 31 is a perfectly decent locomotive. It runs very smooth and slow and sure

 

 

agreed

5 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

The Accurascale model looks nice , but I'm not sure there are significant advances over the Hornby model , unless you want a condition AS are doing and Hornby haven't. I'm not saying I wouldn't buy the Accurascale model - just that I'm not sure I can really justify buying another brand new high spec 31 that I don't  really need when I have a cupboard full of projects where the money has already been spent and the cost of doing the job is almost nil...

 

also agreed

5 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

How do Hornby respond to the AS 31?   Knock out a load of RR 31s in various liveries. Then when Accurascale have sold their runs - announce the Hornby full-fat 31 as a 2nd batch refurb 31/4 in blue and a 31/5 in Dutch, at a very similar price to AS. No investment needed at all to do that...

 

yet weve been waiting 20 years for Hornby to do exactly that.

( They have done a suitable Dutch 31/5, but it was in error, it was 31147 Floreat Salopea which used the 31/4 tooling by mistake).

 

5 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

The catch with the new boy's business model is that they do a run - and then that's it. On to the next project. Hornby can simply re-run their 31 when Accurascale have moved on to something else , and Hotnby's will be the only model available to buy.

 

From here on , it becomes a question of who has the livery/condition you want available at the time . The right paint will outweigh any difference between the models

 

Hornby's "response" will be to carry on doing what they have already been doing , and not spend a penny on new tooling (appart perhaps from deleting the working fan)

 

The problem is the 31 has many liveries from the 1990’s.

Yet neither Hornby or Accurascale are touching them in high detailed models, its that same old Mainline, Dutch and Blue (albeit blue has taken a long time).

 

My Lima 31 fleet will be safe throughout 2023.

 

Hornby owns 4 class 31 toolings.

There would be no point Hornby re-running 1990’s liveried 31’s on the Lima tooling, as weve already got them. Just as much as theres no point Hornby bringing back the Triang or the Airfix toolings either.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by adb968008

[adb968008]

19 minutes ago, zigzag said:

 

 

Not much in the offing for BR diesel/electrics Im afraid, and BR Blue will continue to be ignored*

 

* I get the impression that SK is not a rail enthusiast as such but is a model rail enthusiast/salesman, hence open goals are continue to be ignored/not expolited to the full

Hes marketing, not sales.

Ive seen huge enthusiasm in Hornby, But Ive not seen many references to him being seen on railtours, platform ends or even shows in a personal capacity, only work.

maybe he goes in disguise ?

 

I suspect much of the “confusion“ about if something is railroad or is main range is down to his translation of the market, and how Hornby can capitalise on it.

 

Recognising paint sells more than accuracy on 66’s saw a revenue opportunity that would carry stigma if it was railroad… so move it up a gear, and rinse / repeat with 37/47.

 

I dont consider this genius though, they already knew and practised it throughout the 1980’s when they were current. The failing imo was dumbing down the paint and expecting it to compete with the s/h market for the same loco that was made 30 years ago in fully decorated colours, in the first place.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2022 by adb968008

[Dunsignalling]

32 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

YMS.

( Yet more southern)

🥶
we need to level up (bring down the south to northern standards).

 

 

 

If Hornby were to announce one or two fewer new and retooled Southern locos than the number of LNER ones they have introduced over the past four years, we Southern fans would be over the moon!

 

John

Edited December 28, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[wombatofludham]

Just binge watching some great 1980s video on the "Choob and it struck me how we are missing a decent Class 155, a class seen from Yorkshire to Cornwall.  Whilst the 153 in the range is reasonable (although there's something not quite right and it does from certain angles look like someone has sat on the mould) it's odd that they still persist with the dated and hit-and-miss Dapol mouldings.

(Toddles off muttering...)

 

Sorry, I've just had a word with myself.  There's Buckley's chance of a modern spec 155 and of course it's not odd Hornby will continue to push the Dapol squinty-liky.  They don't boil water and as we know, their Head of Green Shield Stamps thinks only things that boil water are "charismatic".

Acidity aside, if Hornby were wanting a stake in the contemporary standard, second generation unit market currently occupied by Bachmann and Realtrack, they could do worse than a new 155 and 153 model with underfloor mechanisms, full fat lighting and DCC and most of all, proper shaped bodies, allowing the 153 and 155s in the current range to go Railroad or in the bin.

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Yet another southernista popping up demanding LMS is ignored and yet another Southern loco substituted… its bad enough with Hornbys LNER and a general manufacturer interest in plain black J Goods engines.

 

😀

Theres a lot more to the LMS than end of steam stuff.

 

 

Serious question - how much longer has the ex Airfix 4F tool got? It's been around for a very long time. (Have Hornby put a loco drive chassis under it? I can't remember)

 

When did Bachmann last run their own 4F? Can Bachmann Europe bid successfully for production slots at Kadar to make it, and still make money selling it at a price constrained by what Hornby charge?

 

(A little Google work suggests Bachmann launched their 4F in 2012 , re-ran it in 2015 - Hornby did several runs in 2015-6, and again this year. There may be a few years left in the old tool - but clearly Bachmann haven't blown away Hornby . Hornby's model is recently available ; Bachmann haven't made any for almost 8 years. Who got value for investment here?)

 

At some point down the track , a retool of the body and tender to fit an existing loco drive mechanism could make sense

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

 

Hornby owns 4 class 31 toolings.

There would be no point Hornby re-running 1990’s liveried 31’s on the Lima tooling, as weve already got them. Just as much as theres no point Hornby bringing back the Triang or the Airfix toolings either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think Hornby bought the 31 tools from Dapol.

 

I bought a spare Airfix 31 body when Dapol were clearing out old stuff some years ago. That was well after the Dapol/Hornby tooling sale (maybe a decade after)

[wombatofludham]

I wonder if Bachmann might be bringing an LMS Fowler Standard 4f with left hand drive, as an addition to their existing MR right hand drive model, sometime soon?  The LMS standard 4F were more numerous and lasted longer than the Midland locos and the current ex-Airfix model isn't much of a competitor.  It does seem a bit of a low hanging fruit for Bachmann.

[Ravenser]

22 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

Just binge watching some great 1980s video on the "Choob and it struck me how we are missing a decent Class 155, a class seen from Yorkshire to Cornwall.  Whilst the 153 in the range is reasonable (although there's something not quite right and it does from certain angles look like someone has sat on the mould) it's odd that they still persist with the dated and hit-and-miss Dapol mouldings.

(Toddles off muttering...)

 

Sorry, I've just had a word with myself.  There's Buckley's chance of a modern spec 155 and of course it's not odd Hornby will continue to push the Dapol squinty-liky.  They don't boil water and as we know, their Head of Green Shield Stamps thinks only things that boil water are "charismatic".

Acidity aside, if Hornby were wanting a stake in the contemporary standard, second generation unit market currently occupied by Bachmann and Realtrack, they could do worse than a new 155 and 153 model with underfloor mechanisms, full fat lighting and DCC and most of all, proper shaped bodies, allowing the 153 and 155s in the current range to go Railroad or in the bin.

 

 

1. The 155s had a very short life - except for a handful owned by WYPTE. The 156 is a vastly better bet , which is why Hornby have bet on the ex Lima 156... So did Charlie Petty, even though the 155 is a distinctive W Yorks type

 

2. Hornby haven't made any for about a decade

 

3. There is no comparison whatsoever between the old Dapol 155 and Hornby's own 153. The Hornby 153 is a good detailed modern model with full underframe detail , flushglaze and decent detailing , fitted with a very good smooth slow running mechanism, lights and DCC ready . The old Dapol 155 is err... basic . It cannot be detailed to get close to the standard of the 153 : I know cos I've tried, and I own 3 x 153

 

4. I've heard no real criticism of the 153 , bar a hint it might be fractionally low. But there are no scale drawings of the things to check (D+E modellers don't approve of scale drawings...) . Consequently nobody thinks there's anything wrong with them

 

The 155 is not worth touching as a subject. I can't see any justification for claiming that the 153 is rubbish that belongs in the bin. This would be retooling for retooling's sake.

 

I suspect the biggest problem with the current 153 is that it is made by The Wrong People and is therefore assumed to be dud....

 

P.S : in what sense is the Second Generation Unit market occupied by Bachmann and Realtrack? 15 years ago , yes Bachmann had a big range . In recent years the only thing they've offered has been a 150 . Everything else has been missing in action.

 

Hornby have 153, 156 and the vintage 142. Yes , Realtrack have produced several fine units - but they are pricey . £255-£270 for a 156.  Hornby have a vintage 110 in the current catalogue at £145 , and a 153 in an extremely complex vinyl livery at £153. I would expect a 156 run to be under 2/3rds realtrack's price. Again , affordability. (A lot will again come down to availability of a specific livery....)

 

One issue emerges - we are seeing things as "in X's range"  when quite often they haven't been produced for some years, and sometimes  they only had a few runs. You can keep selling older tooling for years if the model that nominally "displaced" it isn't actually available....

Edited December 28, 2022 by Ravenser

[wombatofludham]

I wasn't thinking the 153 should be binned, just the 155.  The current 153 is fine as a "Railroad" model but the 155 isn't.

I disagree the 155 isn't worth the effort, they may have only run outside Yorkshire for three years (1988-91) but they covered a substantial part of the South West, Wales, the West Midlands as well as Yorkshire.  Whilst the 156 makes a far better commercial project for a relatively new start-up like Realtrack, which is presumably why Charlie chose it, there are a number of attractive livery options for the Yorkshire units and, if the tooling had contemporary features like low level motors, interior lighting (which the 153 doesn't have) and the tools were adaptable to allow 153s to be made as well, would give the models a decent lifespan and many liveries.  It's considerably less niche than the Fell, 4DD, ES1 or the 89.

Of course Hornby won't do it, I seriously doubt there will be a lot of new stuff this year other than reliveries, but a 155 from "someone" is overdue, the current 153 is nearly there but not quite (I like the model and have at various times had three and used them on the old exhibition layout but to match the standard of my Realtrack 156 or Bachmann 158 I will need to do a fair bit of work) so if a company were to do a 153/155 toolset it would tick a number of boxes.
 

[scouse889]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

or was it because they were so cheap at the time people bought them for their chassis to upgrade their Lima ones, and took the TTS chip as well.

 

They were £50 TTS at the time, you could get £20 for your old Lima chassis, and a £10 for the TTS loco body / box), meaning a full upgrade to DCC sound cost you a tenner, if you sold the chip, your upgrade actually paid you back!

I blatently upgraded armfuls of my 31/37/47’s through this process.

Wasn’t just me then! 😆 They were £34 for the donor 47 models from RoS at one point…. those were the days!

[scouse889]

Going back to Hornby 2023 speculation, I predict a rake of Mk III coaches in VTEC/LNER livery, as we have had a rake of them announced every year for the past 4 years on the trot.

[newbryford]

On 28/12/2022 at 20:06, wombatofludham said:

Of course Hornby won't do it, I seriously doubt there will be a lot of new stuff this year other than reliveries, but a 155 from "someone" is overdue, the current 153 is nearly there but not quite (I like the model and have at various times had three and used them on the old exhibition layout but to match the standard of my Realtrack 156 or Bachmann 158 I will need to do a fair bit of work) so if a company were to do a 153/155 toolset it would tick a number of boxes.
 

 

 I wonder of they will re-issue the 153 in EMT colours?

 

It would a be a useful accompaniment to the recently released new tool Mk3s (and imminent HST power cars)

 

EMT 153 prices are quite buoyant on the second hand market.

 

As an add-on:

They could even do a 153 in turquoise and put Network Rail stickers on it - as well as one in EMT colours with NwR  branding.

 

If only to accompany the recent release of the newer tooling HST.

 

EMT 153s prices are quite buoyamt on the second-hand market

Edited December 29, 2022 by newbryford
tidying up the post

[APOLLO]

My prediction.

 

A scale Bowyers Pork Pie c/w Travellers Fare wrapping. Very small model so should be under twenty quid - put it on a table in your fifty odd quid buffet car - instant realism !! 

 

Scale "sausages and mash"  toilet emissions for trackside realism (N.B. do not place in station areas - no flushing allowed there --- then again !!).

 

Scale trainspotters with ABC and jam buttys sitting on a platform trolley, some underlining, some gesticulating, some asleep. Duffel bags and anoraks included.

 

Pack of said trainspotters being ceremoniously thrown out of MPD - Choice of Gateshead or Edge Hill MPD sign complete with miserable Geordie / Scouse shed master (they all looked alike) with raised arm, open jaw and red face included. You could really go to town with a sound chip. !!

 

Pack of older gricers with sports coats, ties and cameras, one waving a shed permit. (I've never seen a shed permit - did they exist ?).

 

Pack of "Master Neverers" up on ladders with oily rags trying to polish a turd buggered old steam engines.

 

Pair of barking vicious Alsatian dogs for your scrapyard scene, one with three legs, one eye and half a tail.

 

That's how it was folks - time to stop counting rivets and add reality to our layouts !!

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Going2theDogs]

Hi All,

Reference speculation for Hornby new releases for 2023, how about the Mk 1 coaches in inter city ‘swallow’ livery complete with white roofs?

These we’re used on charters in the 1980’s & 1990’s IIRC.

A brake composite corridor coach was introduced earlier this year (R40020) but no other stock in a matching livery have since been announced.

With their range of Mk 1 carriage types available now, hopefully we can expect some other variants….

Edited December 29, 2022 by CB Rail
Typo

[McC]

10 hours ago, Ravenser said:

The catch with the new boy's business model is that they do a run - and then that's it. On to the next project. Hornby can simply re-run their 31 when Accurascale have moved on to something else , and Hotnby's will be the only model available to buy.

 

Again, for the sake of accuracy that’s neither our model nor our often stated intention. All of our ranges are just that. Ranges. Anything old enough we’ve run multiple times already and the next run of Deltics will be announced in the coming weeks. Our business model would be very flawed if everything we tooled was a one hit wonder. Hope that helps clarify. 

[frobisher]

4 hours ago, Ravenser said:

I don't think Hornby bought the 31 tools from Dapol.

 

I bought a spare Airfix 31 body when Dapol were clearing out old stuff some years ago. That was well after the Dapol/Hornby tooling sale (maybe a decade after)

 

The former doesn't necessarily prove the latter though as Dapol definitely continued to have stock of spares for a lot of the stuff that Hornby did buy the tooling of for quite a while after.  But as the Stanier coaches show, not all the tooling from Arfix/Mainline at Dapol went to Hornby, for whatever reason(s). 

Edited December 28, 2022 by frobisher

[TomScrut]

3 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Realtrack have produced several fine units - but they are pricey . £255-£270 for a 156.

 

Given that 156 is basically 2 locos, I'd say that's a bargain not pricey!

 

4 hours ago, Ravenser said:

In recent years the only thing they've offered has been a 150

 

The 158? Bit of an obvious one there! Still only 2/5 Sprinters made in any number.

 

4 hours ago, Ravenser said:

I would expect a 156 run to be under 2/3rds realtrack's price

 

Why? Hornby charge about £230 for a class 60!

 

3 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

but a 155 from "someone" is overdue

 

I agree. Whilst there aren't many, the ones that are still 155s do still get on the ECML a bit and around the rest of Yorkshire.