The best currently available dcc controller

[AndrueC]

@Prof Klyzlr your post prompted me to do a search and it appears that NCE freely provide technical information:

 

https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/categories/200066109-Manuals-Common-Questions-and-Useful-Information

 

Including their Cab Bus protocol:

 

https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360048108114-Cab-Bus-Technical-Reference

[RobinofLoxley]

I sampled a couple of documents there out of curio and they were last revised 2002 and 2006.

[Ron Ron Ron]

32 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

I sampled a couple of documents there out of curio and they were last revised 2002 and 2006.

Is that any surprise with a product that has hardly changed, or had any significant development in over 25 years ?

 

 

.

[melvin]

Hobbo. There's plenty of comments here for you to digest i won't add to it.

Except to say Hands On is your best option.

Trouble is where. Digitrains of Lincoln have a dedicated demo layout for you to play with.

I dont know of any others.

Digitrains attend all major shows. But difficult to discuss DCC what with all the surrounding show noise. Good Luck.

[jamesed]

These threads about 'best dcc controller' come up every now and then and the outcome is always the same. Sooner or later it gets to the point where, for whatever reason, some people start to get defensive about their own choices whilst others become dismissive about other systems. It's quite understandable really because we all put a lot of thought into what will be best for ourselves so much so that we become convinced that what we chose is the best of all.  In the end we don't really get anywhere in answering the original question but we do start to get an understanding of why some systems work best for some people. 

 

So just to add the reasoning for my choices . . .

 

I use, like several others who have already posted, the Z21 (black) system and I'm extremely happy with that choice.  Interestingly one of my biggest factors in choosing it was that I wanted to run a system from touch screen control and having a couple of 10" tablets permanently hooked up to it works really well for me.  There are many who will say that they can't get on with touch screen slider throttle control but that isn't an issue for me. I do also have a wireless Multimaus which gives that rotary knob control (and very good that is too) but I find I hardly use it.  However, I do get that many people, perhaps especially older users who have used rotary knobs to control their trains for many many years, can't come to terms with the idea of screen control so for anyone who feels that way don't immediately discount the Z21 because the Multimaus (wired or wireless) provides really good traditional rotary knob control.

 

Other big plus points for me:

 

The separate program track outputs on the Z21 make life very much easier, and safer.

 

The ability to read and program CVs with such ease is ideal and the ability to update firmware on Zimo decoders is an added bonus.

 

Never having to remember a dcc address is brilliant. Selecting locos from a photo and organising function buttons how you want them in any order and configured to work in any way is so simple. 

 

Being able to control all my points and other accessories from a touch screen mimic was a big plus point for me and one of the major selling points. This has proved to be even better than I anticipated and the route setting buttons work brilliantly.  Usually one of my tablets is dedicated to the schematic control screen. I also use it for lighting control switches and activating abc sections.  Controlling points and accessories this way has also saved me a lot of time and money as this negates the need for a mimic and switching panel. [As an aside, the Z21 and Cobalt IP Digital point motors are a match made in heaven.]

 

Being able to control any two trains  (in tablet landscape mode) simultaneously works really well and switching between trains on each throttle is a quick and simple finger scroll. 

 

I haven't yet gone down the route of block sensors and automated control but it's reassuring to know that I have a system that will seemlessly integrate with this when I'm ready to progress down that route in the inevitable future. 

 

Short curcuit protection is effective and simple to reset on screen. Likewise the emergency stop button is clear and accessible with obvious visual indication of activation. 

 

The system is easily expandable - I have two dcc power zones with one zone running from a Z21 Booster. 

 

The Z21 app can be used offline so you don't need to be connected up to your Z21 when creating the layout schematic or adding locos.  Sometimes it's nice to do this from the comfort of your sofa! Sharing your layout between devices is also very simple. 

 

The system is intuitive to use but there are also lots of YouTube tutorial videos to help you learn how to do things when you are starting out. 

 

 

So, that's why it works for me but that's just my opinion. Others may have different needs and views. 

 

My advice is turn to YouTube.  You'll find lots of video tutorials or demonstrations for most systems. A bit of online research and you'll  have a much clearer picture of what might work best for you. 

 

 

[ianLMS]

I had a z21 Start with wi-fi router for around 5 years. Used it mostly with the red Multimaus and an old Samsung tablet. Paid around £150 for it and it was perfect. Then, along came a Black Z21 on ebay for £150. I couldnt resist it. Both units are very capable of doing what it is you are looking for. Its user friendly, very well supported, versatile and works extremely well. I have a 00 layout, med size, with around 30 points operated through DCC Concepts ADS control modules and the Z21 does me perfectly. Most locos have Zimo chips fitted as well. Not used with a computer yet but will progress one day.  Folks on this forum are always on hand to answer questions and this is the first place i come to if i dont understand something. I am sure NCE, Zimo, merg etc are all great systems, but i can only comment on my experience with the z and Z21's and i cannot fault them.  

 

Oh, and a very happy new year to everyone!!!!

Edited January 1, 2023 by ianLMS

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, jamesed said:

I use, like several others who have already posted, the Z21 (black) system and I'm extremely happy with that choice.  Interestingly one of my biggest factors in choosing it was that I wanted to run a system from touch screen control and having a couple of 10" tablets permanently hooked up to it works really well for me.  There are many who will say that they can't get on with touch screen slider throttle control but that isn't an issue for me. I do also have a wireless Multimaus which gives that rotary knob control (and very good that is too) but I find I hardly use it.  However, I do get that many people, perhaps especially older users who have used rotary knobs to control their trains for many many years, can't come to terms with the idea of screen control so for anyone who feels that way don't immediately discount the Z21 because the Multimaus (wired or wireless) provides really good traditional rotary knob control.

As I've said before on other topics of this nature, an on screen slider cannot easily be used when you are not looking at it (unless you have eyes on the end of your fingers.)

There are scenarios where a physical knob is better.

e.g. I can control a loco, forwards/backwards, slow crawl & stop with a Multimaus in the hand whilst looking at the loco, I can do it on the tablet but I have to monitor where my finger is and the control seems to be less fine.

 

[steve45]

'Would prefer non US system'

 

Any particular reason why?

 

You have just discounted a significant proportion of the market in terms of volume of sales to other users?

[two tone green]

For me having used European DCC & USA DCC  I would put it as, with a USA system the manufacture determines how you set it up and use your system whilst with a European system you as the end user determines it’s set up and how you want to use it. 
 

The biggest noticeable difference is with function keys, their operation and the names associated with them. 
 

USA, fixed naming and no choice as to which functions are momentary with F2 being the only momentary key. 
 

European, do what you want. 
 

Remember loco decoders are incredibly configurable but that is lost on USA DCC systems due to the function key issue. 
 

That’s my observation with systems from the USA such as the biggest Digitrax and a smaller but more modern TCS compared with the European companies such as ESU, Lenz, Uhlenbrock,  Roco and other smaller manufacturers. 
 

 

 

[andyman7]

On 30/12/2022 at 18:22, JimFin said:

I use the Bachmann Dynamis Ultima on my home and exhibition layouts with RocRail software on a laptop and the control is all by mouse from the screen.

 

Bachmann of course don't make this stuff, it's a rebadged ESU Navigator with a fairly dodgy hand controller that links up (on a good day) with an IR connection. Since the Ultima has a USB connection it's ideal to link it to the computer.

 

I don't use and automation but some route control so that one button sets all the points for that route. As locos are identified by thumbnail images on the screen, no real issue knowing numbers to key onto a handset. I have set the display up (wide screen gaming monitor) with the full available roster, a digital mimic board for the point, accessory and sound controls, adjacent to that a section for locos rostered for up traffic, next for down traffic and finally a section for station pilot  / free direction stock.

 

 

Big advantage is it takes about 10 minutes for a new operator to be competent, including one committed analogue user who could not get on with digital but found this to be no problem. My grandchildren (7 and  9) were quite happily running the layouts at Warley this year.

 

We do some remote operation using the RocWeb add on which allows any phone or tablet on the same network to act as a hand held. To that end, each layout has a built in router and discreet WiFi.

 

About the only down side I know of - it would not support detection and it is limited to 20 functions.

 

Since I have no plans to use detection and probably only use 5 or 6 functions on the sound equipped loco's anyway - it fits the bill for me.

 

Essentially all I am using the Ultima for is a translation box to pass the data from the laptop to the layout in DCC format. 

 

Guess you need to really analyse where you want to end up with your system and buy with capability to match your ambitions.

 

As the owner of a Dynamis Ultima with a decidedly dodgy hand throttle (and yes, it's definitely the handset), making use of the USB connection is quite a useful option. Bachmann promote the use of the Railcontroller software, but am I right in thinking that RocRail installed on a laptop works via the Ultima box if connected via the USB? Are there any other steps?

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, two tone green said:

For me having used European DCC & USA DCC  I would put it as, with a USA system the manufacture determines how you set it up and use your system whilst with a European system you as the end user determines it’s set up and how you want to use it. 
 

The biggest noticeable difference is with function keys, their operation and the names associated with them. 
 

USA, fixed naming and no choice as to which functions are momentary with F2 being the only momentary key. 

European, do what you want. 

 

As a generalisation, I would agree,   however....

 

1 hour ago, two tone green said:

 

That’s my observation with systems from the USA such as the biggest Digitrax and a smaller but more modern TCS compared with the European companies such as ESU, Lenz, Uhlenbrock,  Roco and other smaller manufacturers.

 

TCS' system seems to be as configurable as any European system.  Unless I've mis-read the documentation for their devices, and the answers from their support teams on forums for their products. 
The TCS configuration comes from the WiThrottle server device which presents the "roster" of locos.  So if using a "dumb" server (such as the WiFi throttle hardware devices from Digitrax/MRC/etc.)  then it lacks the configuration and everything drops back to default settings, but if using a "smarter" server (such as JMRI, or the WiFitrax device for NCE, or a DCC++EX system) then it has the configuration data per loco - assuming the user enters the data into the server in the first place!     

 

 

- Nigel

 

[melmerby]

On 31/12/2022 at 11:52, melvin said:

Digitrains of Lincoln have a dedicated demo layout for you to play with.

I dont know of any others.

DCC supplies at Top Barn in Worcestershire have a similar set up.

(Bit out of the way for strangers and you really need a car.)

Edited January 1, 2023 by melmerby

[two tone green]

1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

As a generalisation, I would agree,   however....

 

 

TCS' system seems to be as configurable as any European system.  Unless I've mis-read the documentation for their devices, and the answers from their support teams on forums for their products. 
The TCS configuration comes from the WiThrottle server device which presents the "roster" of locos.  So if using a "dumb" server (such as the WiFi throttle hardware devices from Digitrax/MRC/etc.)  then it lacks the configuration and everything drops back to default settings, but if using a "smarter" server (such as JMRI, or the WiFitrax device for NCE, or a DCC++EX system) then it has the configuration data per loco - assuming the user enters the data into the server in the first place!     

 

 

- Nigel

 

The way the TCS Wi-Fi throttles were advertised as a universal Wi-Fi throttle when I bought mine with all the blurb about being fully configurable was a tad misleading as it needs the use of JMRI which you have mentioned via the WiThrottle server so involving a PC. 
 

Out of the box it certainly is not a universal Wi-Fi throttle and is a dumb as the new flagship Digitrax 602DE which I also have. 
 

Pick up the Uhlenbrock Daisy 2 handset, tethered or radio and you have a fully configurable handset. Superb handset, I have two. 

[Nigelcliffe]

43 minutes ago, two tone green said:

The way the TCS Wi-Fi throttles were advertised as a universal Wi-Fi throttle when I bought mine with all the blurb about being fully configurable was a tad misleading as it needs the use of JMRI which you have mentioned via the WiThrottle server so involving a PC. 
 

Out of the box it certainly is not a universal Wi-Fi throttle and is a dumb as the new flagship Digitrax 602DE which I also have. 
 

Pick up the Uhlenbrock Daisy 2 handset, tethered or radio and you have a fully configurable handset. Superb handset, I have two. 

 

OK, difference of experience around TCS.  The full-feature WiThrottle server in JMRI also runs on small devices, such as Raspberry PIs.   The problem is the minimum-feature WiThrottle servers which some other DCC system makers sell.        

 

I too like the Daisy 2.   It does have its own slight annoyances, such as grouping functions in eights (rather than tens), stopping at F24 for the icon presentation of functions, and being Uhlenbrock there are subtle differences to Digitrax loconet (the way status editing works for speed steps, the way programming commands work, etc. which means some features don't work when used on non-Uhlenbrock systems.).    And my experience with Uhlenbrock tech support hasn't been great, which is a shame as its a nice device.  

[two tone green]

21 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

OK, difference of experience around TCS.  The full-feature WiThrottle server in JMRI also runs on small devices, such as Raspberry PIs.   The problem is the minimum-feature WiThrottle servers which some other DCC system makers sell.        

 

I too like the Daisy 2.   It does have its own slight annoyances, such as grouping functions in eights (rather than tens), stopping at F24 for the icon presentation of functions, and being Uhlenbrock there are subtle differences to Digitrax loconet (the way status editing works for speed steps, the way programming commands work, etc. which means some features don't work when used on non-Uhlenbrock systems.).    And my experience with Uhlenbrock tech support hasn't been great, which is a shame as its a nice device.  

I get to play with a lot of handsets from all sorts of makers and I tend to look at the out of box experience without having to use a PC to rely on making it work for the end user.
 

Someone entering the world of DCC faces a big learning curve as it is without mastering servers and whatever and even myself who is a big DCC PC RR&Co TC user sometimes just wants to play trains without all the automation and a good configurable handset is a must for the and so far no USA handset I have tried does this. 
 

Not had the need to contact tech support for the Daisy 2 and the limitation of F24 really is not an issue for me as I find I can get at the function I use in the first 8 after moving them around in my decoders to match my needs. 
 

I use my Daisy 2’s via the ESU Lnet adapter hooked up to my ECoS and they work really well. Programming is either via the ECoS or Lok Programmer. 

[Crosland]

On 29/12/2022 at 06:17, peterm1 said:

Yes my Lenz can go to 64, but I don't see any need for that in my lifetime.

There is at least one UK sound project that, by default, uses functions higher than 28.

 

There was a thread about it not too long ago.

[WIMorrison]

But does the sound of bacon and eggs sizzling on the fireman's shovel actually bring any benefit over the more fundamental sounds that can actually be heard on the real thing? 🤣

[two tone green]

Just now, WIMorrison said:

But does the sound of bacon and eggs sizzling on the fireman's shovel actually bring any benefit over the more fundamental sounds that can actually be heard on the real thing? 🤣

Yes!

[RAF96]

Of the wide range of sounds available I rarely use more than three or four' all the rest fall into the rivet counter bracket. My preference is to set these up in auto-function (decoder dependent) to play at random.

[peterm1]

On 02/01/2023 at 06:33, Crosland said:

There is at least one UK sound project that, by default, uses functions higher than 28.

 

There was a thread about it not too long ago.

I've only very recently re-joined so missed that. Sounds interesting.

[peterm1]

On 03/01/2023 at 15:54, peterm1 said:

I've only very recently re-joined so missed that. Sounds interesting.

Any idea what the title was?  I've looked through the "DCC sound" forum but couldn't find it.

[Free At Last]

2 hours ago, peterm1 said:

Any idea what the title was?  I've looked through the "DCC sound" forum but couldn't find it.

Would this be the one... 

 

[peterm1]

21 hours ago, Free At Last said:

Would this be the one... 

 

Thanks. I think that must be it.

[halsey]

I like the gauge master prodigy 2 BUT is there a DCC system (knob based) that allows control of two locos without switching anything - ie with 2 knobs??

 

Sorry if this has been covered just found this thread as the prodigy 2 is once again frustrating me but only really for this specific reason.

Edited February 26 by halsey

[AndrueC]

Just now, halsey said:

I like the gauge master prodigy 2 BUT is there a system (knob based) that allows control of two locos without switching anything - ie with 2 knobs??

 

Sorry if this has been covered just found this thread as the prodigy 2 is once again frustrating me for this reason.

There's the https://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/esu/ECoS-v2.1-50210 if you can find it on sale anywhere (seems permanently out of stock) and stomach the high price. Alternatively you could probably build a dual controller using MERG kit for considerably less. Also the NCE PowerCab supports multiple handsets (or at least two anyway).