Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, RAF96 said:

....Oversize decoders - that will turn into urban myth of all Hornby decoders are oversize,...........

 

In this case, it appears to be no urban myth.

It seems that this Next18 decoder does not comply with the Next18 specification.

We know the reason why, but should Hornby be marketing it as a Next18 decoder if it won't fit into the space defined in the Next18 spec ?

 

 

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Edited March 30, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[WIMorrison]

The interface is Next18 ;)

[Ron Ron Ron]

57 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

The interface is Next18 ;)

 

Next18  (NEM 662) - non-sound

L = 15.0 mm

W = 9.5 mm

H = 2.9 mm

 

Next18-S  (NEM 662) - the larger sound decoder size

L = 25.00 mm

W = 10.5 mm

H = 4.1 mm

 

HM7000-N18TXS

L = 28.5 mm

W = 14.00 mm

H = 4.9 mm

 

 

This decoder may have the Next18 pin format, but technically it isn't a Next18 decoder.

 

 

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Edited March 30, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[spamcan61]

"Inspired by Next18"

 

"Next18 style"

 

Plenty of possibilities :-)

[Mike Buckner]

Next 18 + a bit

[meatloaf]

2 hours ago, RAF96 said:

Sam did the same thing on his HM6K review, bumbled it through not reading the instructions first, said it didn’t work as it should, then later on apologised and said all was well after reading the famous manual.

HM7K review was a repeat, bumble through, screw it up, especially using a rogue controller flagged up as unsuitable in the Hornbyt manual, burning out a decoder likely from the raw DC spiking, then at the end the usual apology.

I have it on good authority that Hornby is not the only manufacturer a tad seething about his click-bait off the cuff and often inaccurate reviews. However he has his fan-boys as they were described to me, who will not be swayed.

Oversize decoders - that will turn into urban myth of all Hornby decoders are oversize, just like the Select myth that it is not fit for purpose that still lingers, even as recent as an article In BRM a few issues ago.

Which controller was flagged as unsuitable? The Gaugemaster DC ones he used or the PowerCab? 

[woodenhead]

Next 18-30: your Farish won't like it.

[Ouroborus]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Next18  (NEM 662) - non-sound

L = 15.0 mm

W = 9.5 mm

H = 2.9 mm

 

Next18-S  (NEM 662) - the larger sound decoder size

L = 25.00 mm

W = 10.5 mm

H = 4.1 mm

 

HM7000-N18TXS

L = 28.5 mm

W = 14.00 mm

H = 4.9 mm

 

 

This decoder may have the Next18 pin format, but technically it isn't a Next18 decoder.

 

 

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"Details Details Details"

[frobisher]

16 hours ago, PeterStiles said:

You can't just make your software "work" like someone else's - they get annoyed and start shouting and throwing lawyers at you.

 

Yes you can, provided it doesn't look the same and isn't dependent on unauthorised sight of their code base.

[leonk]

The size issue may also be due to the Bluetooth antenna.  It's that strip on the end with the metal trace zig zagging along it. 

I haven't seen a Blunami decoder in person but i'm guessing they only get around it by having wires and not direct plug in.

Edited March 31, 2023 by leonk

[NIK]

2 hours ago, leonk said:

The size issue may also be due to the Bluetooth antenna.  It's that strip on the end with the metal trace zig zagging along it. 

I haven't seen a Blunami decoder in person but i'm guessing they only get around it by having wires and not direct plug in.

Hi,

 

Hornby say they couldn't get hold of a suitable SMD Bluetooth antenna in time so they have released the initial batches of HM7000 series decoders with PCB zig zig antennas.

SMD Bluetooth antennas can be much smaller than PCB antennas.

 

The shortages in SMD Bluetooth antennas may be due to 'chipaggedon' which started in 2020 where electronics production was cut back and swapped to more lucrative products.

 

Silicon 'chip' production may improve this year and hopefully SMD Bluetooth antennas will follow as many chips have Bluetooth interfaces these days.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[HExpressD]

Rock and a hard place, if they hadn't released the decoders which are a bit longer than standard (but will still fit in 99% of locos anyway) people would be beating them with the 'your products are always late' stick. 

[Edge]

Quite. I had a little trouble getting all the gubbins into my W1 tender, but messing about with the size of the speaker enclosures sorted that, and it’s not like it was a massive issue.

 

I think my 3mt tank loco will likely be a bit trickier, but that’s part of the game. If Hornby can help out by producing a second gen decoder with a smaller Bluetooth antenna then there will be no complaints from me, but in the meantime I am perfectly satisfied with what I have tried 

[JSpencer]

I find it rather odd that the marketing talks about being compatible with DC controllers here: https://uk.Hornby.com/hm7000/upgrade-paths

 

and then the manual does not recommend them: (page 17)

 

We do not recommend DC operation … Why? We stated earlier that the decoder is capable of supporting DC only (analogue) operation and that we do not recommend this method of operation. No DCC decoder can guarantee consistent operation from a variable DC power source as there is a minimum threshold voltage at which the decoder will boot. We would only suggest using this method of control for steady voltage “running in” a loco on a separate DC analogue track if really required to do so. Never use DC mode for general locomotive operations as this mode can result in unpredictable operation of the decoder. If you intend to run the locomotive on a DC analogue layout for an extended time, please remove the decoder and replace it with a “Blanking Plug.” DC operation is also configured via CV12.. CV12… Decoder Control mode select… DCC/BLE/DC… Note: it is also necessary to turn on DC operation in CV29 by enabling bit2, Power Conversion. (If, programming a decoder with CV29 set to a default value (=2) add 4 to this value… CV29 = 6

 

A sort of, "yeah, you can briefly do it but you should upgrade to a 15v AC supply or DCC controller sharpish".

 

Still the system has potential. It means an elink can act as the power supply, the loco run from the phone instead of the computer.

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by JSpencer

[The Outcast]

Wait, are the new versions of the Select standards compliant then? Doesn't matter much to me, I brought a PowerCab recently because I had several problems with my (admittedly outdated) Select and wanted to switch to something that would allow me to run trains better when I eventually get the new layout going. 

 

Anyway, I've not commented on these decoders - I think they seem pretty cool, the ability to change CVs on the fly and on a screen seems extremely beneficial, whilst the ability to change the sounds on a sound decoder also allows these chips to be incredibly flexible - the only addition they need to add is the ability to import and use custom sound files - that'd essentially solve the main issue with this system - the only other thing is the size, which seems to be already something they've got on the cards when components become available? Either way, seems revolutionary in terms of the UK modelling scene, and doesn't break the bank either. Hornby seems to have done something that nobody can find significant fault with this time. 

[spamcan61]

38 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

A sort of, "yeah, you can briefly do it but you should upgrade to a 15v AC supply or DCC controller sharpish".

 

That seems to be about it, thing is given the vast range of toy train controllers that have been unleashed on the market over the last 60 years it would be difficult to be any more specific.

 

Not wishing to have our recent debate on the subject* all over again, but for pity's sake there are still newcomers to the hobby being told to go out and get an old Duette as their main controller over on FB groups. 

 

*

 

[Edge]

Just for the record, my £12 mehano controller mated to a 4amp Hornby supply and turned up to full worked absolutely perfectly.

 

I’ll be changing to the official Hornby ‘connect your track to the mains’ cable as soon as I can actually find one available. Am off to the event at statfold tomorrrow, so will definitely be on the lookout there 

[HExpressD]

I think this is a case of the standard recommended vs will work argument. If I moved to Spain I 'could' use travel adaptors on all my appliances in theory forever but manufacturers would 'recommend' I buy appliances with the correct plug on them!

[Edge]

Quite. My system was most definitely jury rigged and even I don’t think it’s a decent solution as things stand. I certainly wouldn’t attempt decoder based DC operation with it with these chips.

 

I do agree that Hornby can’t really say ‘these work on DC’ with the variety of stuff out there, so from my personal perspective, it’s probably best to avoid it. It’s still a £65-£70 decoder that you’re risking, even if this is good value.

 

I agree that I’d like to see Hornby put out some sort of ‘custom sound’ editor or service, which would allow for more esoteric items, but I’m happy for them to get the basics on the go first.

[spamcan61]

12 hours ago, RAF96 said:

 

What is a filtered output and why do you think it is necessary or is this the old Select urban myth that it does not conform to standards , etc . The latest firmware makes it a tad better than v1.0 was. 

Not a deal breaker from my point of view in terms of finding a second hand one to use as a HM7000 to DCC adaptor, but is the Select NMRA certified?

 

From what I can tell having trawled the Hornby website the Elite is NMRA certified but no such claim is made for the Select so I assume it isn't certified so can't claim compliance.

 

https://support.Hornby.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360014215580-Hornby-DCC-Controllers

[Chrisr40]

11 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

"Inspired by Next18"

 

"Next18 style"

 

Plenty of possibilities :-)

You forgot Iconic 😀

[Johan DC]

5 minutes ago, Chrisr40 said:

You forgot Iconic 😀

No sorry, but not iconic, Flying Scotsman is 8pin! 

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

That seems to be about it, thing is given the vast range of toy train controllers that have been unleashed on the market over the last 60 years it would be difficult to be any more specific.

 

Not wishing to have our recent debate on the subject* all over again, but for pity's sake there are still newcomers to the hobby being told to go out and get an old Duette as their main controller over on FB groups. 

 

*

 

 

I agree. I would add that the bulk of newcomers upgrading from a trainset are unlikely to read the 100+ page manual (which is VERY useful and required reading IMHO). And so they will mostly simply follow the marketing blurrb "use your DC controller and you are away". This *might* be a bad move for Hornby if it suddenly causes chips to pop.

 

It might be better for them to say, "If you do not have a DCC controller then, buy the £15 AC power supply...fit your chip...." etc. Which is still far cheaper than any DCC system out there AND avoids any dubious moments of the wrong kind of DC controllers being used.

 

Ah those old H&M Duettes and Clippers... Built to last! Haunting many a layout for time to come....

[Ron Ron Ron]

Hornby should now stop supplying  cheap DC controllers in their train sets and include a 15v power supply instead.

 

Roco include a z21 DCC system in most of their train sets, although they still have some DC train sets in their starter range.

 

In Hornby’s case, their wouldn’t be a cost implication, as the power supplies are cheap in themselves.

 

 

.

[scottrains29]

55 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Not a deal breaker from my point of view in terms of finding a second hand one to use as a HM7000 to DCC adaptor, but is the Select NMRA certified?

 

From what I can tell having trawled the Hornby website the Elite is NMRA certified but no such claim is made for the Select so I assume it isn't certified so can't claim compliance.

 

https://support.Hornby.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360014215580-Hornby-DCC-Controllers

If you're able to hold off a year or two I think it's highly likely Hornby will bring out a new controller that will work with the app.

 

Looking at the Hornby website they don't have any stock of the Selects, they only have a few Elites left and the e-link is now getting sold off cheap.