Hornby 2023 - Bluetooth decoders and control system

[Johan DC]

11 hours ago, RAF96 said:

ELink is actually compatible with a bit of work. As part of HM7K development an Xpressnet port was installed to eLink. This image shows the mod I did with the prototype dongle attached. All the slots were there on the existing PCB and all the required parts can be found in other Hornby digital products so it was a simple task.

The problem came when Hornby decided not to go ahead with the idea for whatever reason (other stuff in the mill presumably) so the firmware update was never released that would enable Xpressnet comms. A pity as it would have opened up Bluetooth operations to Railmaster and the TGG software package I use.

 

Will it be compatible with non-Hornby controllers? I have an eLink, and a z21. Would be a shame not being able to use either, because I'm quite pleased with the HM7000 system. 

[melmerby]

29 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

Will it be compatible with non-Hornby controllers? I have an eLink, and a z21. Would be a shame not being able to use either, because I'm quite pleased with the HM7000 system. 

A Z21 will still control Hornby's Bluetooth decoders via DCC track signals.

[Johan DC]

7 minutes ago, melmerby said:

A Z21 will still control Hornby's Bluetooth decoders via DCC track signals.

Yes, I already do that. I was hoping with the dongle to control my loco's via the app. 

[RedgateModels]

11 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

Yes, I already do that. I was hoping with the dongle to control my loco's via the app. 

That's what it does. I was controlling a zimo sound decoder equipped loco today at Warley with the Hornby app via the dongle plugged into my Z21

[newbryford]

39 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

That's what it does. I was controlling a zimo sound decoder equipped loco today at Warley with the Hornby app via the dongle plugged into my Z21

 

Is there an updated release date for the dongle please?

[Ron Ron Ron]

Speaking to the HM7000 sound developer at Warley yesterday, I asked about future sound projects, specifically for prototypes that Hornby don’t produce models for.

The party line is still that they are concentrating on Hornby’s own product range and that they may look beyond that in the future.

Hmmmm?

 

It seems they developed this system with certain naivety.

For example, consisting (double & multiple heading) appears not to have been considered and they are now working to find a solution.

Surely this should have been built in from day one?

 

There was confirmation that multiple app users would each need to have their own dongle.

I got the impression that they hadn’t originally considered the possibility that more than one or two users might want to use the app (e.g. group or club setting).

Despite the assurance that there was a lot of development work in the pipeline, I left the conversation with no feeling of optimism about where HM DCC is heading.

I hope I’m wrong.

 

 

.

 

[SteveM666]

Consisting and the many other developments have been on the to do list from the outset but to have a brand new operating system with all the ‘extras’ already fully developed and included prior to launch would have delayed that launch for years. It would also mean that a fully developed system would have little or no development potential.

The system was always intended to be inclusive for multiple users at club level - the ability to daisychain dongles via existing kit evidences that function.

At this stage, you can’t blame Hornby for focussing on profiles for their own locos but going forward I would like to see a partnership formed with one or more of the recognised soundfile producers to release additional HM7K compatible sound files  but that is not essential in the short term.

[RAF96]

There is a lot of interest from continental modellers for sound profiles for their locos, also for a Lux22 variant as that config is popular across there.

It is going to be a long queue for profiles.

[Ron Ron Ron]

44 minutes ago, SteveM666 said:

Consisting and the many other developments have been on the to do list from the outset but to have a brand new operating system with all the ‘extras’ already fully developed and included prior to launch would have delayed that launch for years.......

 

Consisting isn't an "extra", it's a prerequisite .

All but the most basic, starter systems had it from day one.

 

 

48 minutes ago, SteveM666 said:

.....At this stage, you can’t blame Hornby for focussing on profiles for their own locos but going forward I would like to see a partnership formed with one or more of the recognised soundfile producers to release additional HM7K compatible sound files  but that is not essential in the short term.

 

This is exactly the sort of questioning I levelled at the Hornby guy.

All I got was a vague possibility they "might" look at going beyond their own in-house sounds for Hornby produced models, at some point in the future.

Whether he was a being guarded in his response, or not, it was hard to tell.

 

 

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[spamcan61]

14 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

This is exactly the sort of questioning I levelled at the Hornby guy.

All I got was a vague possibility they "might" look at going beyond their own in-house sounds for Hornby produced models, at some point in the future.

Whether he was a being guarded in his response, or not, it was hard to tell.

 

 

.

Why would they bother though? Unless they're not selling enough decoders - which seems unlikely given the  'bang for the buck' you get with them currently (even if you ignore BT function completely) -  then I don't see why they'd want to promote sales of competitors' products by spending Hornby money developing sounds for competitors' locos. Maybe a few years down the line if they do need to boost decoder sales then supplying sounds for competitors products makes more business sense.

Edited November 26, 2023 by spamcan61

[SteveM666]

18 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

This is exactly the sort of questioning I levelled at the Hornby guy.

All I got was a vague possibility they "might" look at going beyond their own in-house sounds for Hornby produced models, at some point in the future.

Whether he was a being guarded in his response, or not, it was hard to tell.

 

 

.

He would almost certainly be subject to an NDA regarding future developments so a guarded or non-committal response is to be expected. There is also the absolute certainty that if he were to join in with any speculation it would be nanoseconds before someone comes out with “but that bloke from Hornby said.....”

Edited November 26, 2023 by SteveM666

[Ron Ron Ron]

23 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Why would they bother though? Unless they're not selling enough decoders - which seems unlikely given the  'bang for the buck' you get with them currently (even if you ignore BT function completely) -  then I don't see why they'd want to promote sales of competitors' products by spending Hornby money developing sounds for competitors' locos. Maybe a few years down the line if they do need to boost decoder sales then supplying sounds for competitors products makes more business sense.

On the face of it, it would seem like a protective, competitive position; but in reality a silo approach will spell the demise of HM7000 as a dead end niche.

That’s the dilemma that Hornby will have to weigh up.

 

 

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[WIMorrison]

Hornby does seem to have a bit of history in creating products that look intriguing and that could have a future but which never seem to reach the level of maturity or interoperability that was promised in the early product releases.

[RAF96]

5 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Consisting isn't an "extra", it's a prerequisite .

All but the most basic, starter systems had it from day one.

Consisting is available via DCC addressing just not via the app yet until a suitable GUI is devised. The problem from the app side is each decoder has a non changeable MAC address so the solution has to invent a phantom MAC address to link the real locos to.

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, RAF96 said:

Consisting is available via DCC addressing just not via the app yet until a suitable GUI is devised. The problem from the app side is each decoder has a non changeable MAC address so the solution has to invent a phantom MAC address to link the real locos to.

 

Thank you, that's very informative.

However, note that the BlueRail Trains and Blunami apps have had multiple consisting built-in from the get go, as does the WiFi based WiFiTrax app operated system.

The fact that consisting wasn't embedded in the first public release iteration of the HM DCC app, is a glaring omission.

 

The North American requirement for consisting is obviously very different to that with the British prototype, however the requirement still exists.

Here's a Blunami tutorial......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[MikeParkin65]

By far the most interesting development on the Hornby stand for me was the demo of P2 2007 with the steam effect and  a correct 6 beats per revolution. Uses an optical sensor which will be included on future steam models but won’t be sold separately for retro fitting as chassis woul need to be modified to fit it.  It was really effective in operation and is perhaps a game changer for TXS going forwards. 

[Caledonian Gateway]

52 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

By far the most interesting development on the Hornby stand for me was the demo of P2 2007 with the steam effect and  a correct 6 beats per revolution. Uses an optical sensor which will be included on future steam models but won’t be sold separately for retro fitting as chassis woul need to be modified to fit it.  It was really effective in operation and is perhaps a game changer for TXS going forwards. 

Got a short video if this working. I thought it looked pretty good. Also the water was refilled in the smokebox door which looked to fold down on a hinge at the bottom but unfortunately I wasn't quick enough to get a picture of this.

[Mike10nis]

Apologies if this has already been covered but I picked up a Precedent class at Warley over the weekend and was looking at using a 21pin TXS chip for slightly cheaper sound (plus Bluetooth operation) over other options. know the sound profiles available wouldn’t be exact but my son who’s Christmas present it half is (half mine as well) prefers sound. Will it automatically use the factory fitted speaker or would I have to plug in the speaker that comes with the chip- just aware space looks a little tight in the tender and I’m pretty ham fisted at DCC chip fitting 

[newbryford]

20 minutes ago, Mike10nis said:

Apologies if this has already been covered but I picked up a Precedent class at Warley over the weekend and was looking at using a 21pin TXS chip for slightly cheaper sound (plus Bluetooth operation) over other options. know the sound profiles available wouldn’t be exact but my son who’s Christmas present it half is (half mine as well) prefers sound. Will it automatically use the factory fitted speaker or would I have to plug in the speaker that comes with the chip- just aware space looks a little tight in the tender and I’m pretty ham fisted at DCC chip fitting 

 

IIRC, the 21 pin TXS decoder has the speaker outputs on the correct pins, so a factory fitted speaker should be ok.

With the caveat that it is the correct impedance for TXS, which is most likely to be the case.

[SteveM666]

Fitting the TXS decoder to a Precedent was one of the first HM7K conversions I undertook. The preinstalled speaker is fine to use with the 21 pin decoder so no worries there. I would recommend fitting a powerbank - there is just enough space and it absolutely transforms the performance of a relatively short wheelbase loco.

I think I used the 4F profile on mine.

[Pmorgancym]

On 26/11/2023 at 09:48, Ron Ron Ron said:

Speaking to the HM7000 sound developer at Warley yesterday, I asked about future sound projects, specifically for prototypes that Hornby don’t produce models for.

The party line is still that they are concentrating on Hornby’s own product range and that they may look beyond that in the future.

Hmmmm?

 

It seems they developed this system with certain naivety.

For example, consisting (double & multiple heading) appears not to have been considered and they are now working to find a solution.

Surely this should have been built in from day one?

 

There was confirmation that multiple app users would each need to have their own dongle.

I got the impression that they hadn’t originally considered the possibility that more than one or two users might want to use the app (e.g. group or club setting).

Despite the assurance that there was a lot of development work in the pipeline, I left the conversation with no feeling of optimism about where HM DCC is heading.

I hope I’m wrong.

 

 

.

 

I think they'd have done better developing H&M as a DCC/Tech brand outside the limitations of the Hornby eco system, allowing them to develop hm7000 to it's full potentional with sound profiles as a cost option (maybe Hornby locos would come with a QR code that allowed you to download a free sound profile for whatever loco)

[Ron Ron Ron]

8 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

I think they'd have done better developing H&M as a DCC/Tech brand outside the limitations of the Hornby eco system, allowing them to develop hm7000 to it's full potentional with sound profiles as a cost option (maybe Hornby locos would come with a QR code that allowed you to download a free sound profile for whatever loco)

I’m dubious that the H&M brand would have been useful, as apart from some old codgers like us, the name isn’t recognised or known.

It’s effectively a dead brand.

Your idea of how to open up the market is interesting though.

If Hornby don’t (at some time) start offering sound profiles for models they don’t produce themselves, then once the “novelty’” of the HM7000 has passed, the product will have no traction whatsoever and will probably wither away.

 

The whole point of a direct wireless DCC system, is to remove the need for most of the physical hardware, so having to rely on half Bluetooth and half operating via a regular DCC system, defeats this basic objective.

It should be a means for someone starting out, or converting to DCC, to do so relatively cheaply and without the need to buy expensive electronic hardware.

I would have thought  that existing DCC users, already with their DCC systems, are not the primary target audience.

Hornby need to fully understand and work out this conundrum and find a way to progress this potentially valuable asset to a wider market.

 

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[BachelorBoy]

8 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I’m dubious that the H&M brand would have been useful, as apart from some old codgers like us, the name isn’t recognised or known.

It’s effectively a dead brand.

 

 Hornby are careless with brands, sometimes.

 

I think they squandered "Bassett-Lowke"

 

[roundhouse]

I have fitted a Next 18 TXS to my Planet Industrials Victory. The locos factory fitted speaker works fine. However I did need to fit the Hornby powerbank to get the loco to run smoothly. There is space for both but a small section of the cast runnig board under the side tnak had to be trimmed back.

 

I have fitted another three 8 pin versions to Hornby class 66 and 73's. I think that they are veery good sounds especially for the price. However I wish that they could be programmed using JMRI and that I could run them on DC. There is a setting to make them do so but then they wont run on DCC till switched back again plus Hornby don't recommend runnig them on DC. Just makes it harder to run them on a friends DC layout for which these three locos were mainly obtained for. I will just have to keep an 8 pin blanking plate handy for when they do run on a DC layout.

[SteveM666]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The whole point of a direct wireless DCC system, is to remove the need for most of the physical hardware, so having to rely on half Bluetooth and half operating via a regular DCC system, defeats this basic objective.

It should be a means for someone starting out, or converting to DCC, to do so relatively cheaply and without the need to buy expensive electronic hardware.

I would have thought  that existing DCC users, already with their DCC systems, are not the primary target audience.

HM7K is not a half and half system, although you can run it that way if you wish.

The decoders themselves will perform as a perfectly ordinary DCC sound decoder when switched to DCC mode via the app - you can then run all your locos via your DCC controller.

Alternatively, the soon to be released dongle (for compatible controllers) allows you to assign any non TXS decoder to it - you can then run all your locos, ‘normal’ or TXS from the app.

The dongle (I have one on test with 25+ locos attached) receives a Bluetooth signal from the app, passes that instruction to the controller which then sends that instruction via the rails to the loco.

So not half and half but in reality the best of both worlds.