Original etched brass kits

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

A good question - a quick google hasn't found much (apart from there is evidence of etching as a process during Cleopatra's time!) but I would assume as soon as someone realised it would be useful - registration is the hard part but with care not *that* hard for a basic PCB.

Etching is fairly easy, I've even done photo etching in the past (a 27Mb RC transmitter and some audio amplifier modules)

The artwork is the hardest part.

These days I occasionally make a PCB using paint as a etch resist and draw my circuit on the copper.

[doilum]

Since this thread is running so well:

First CAD etched kit?

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

11 hours ago, melmerby said:

Etching is fairly easy, I've even done photo etching in the past (a 27Mb RC transmitter and some audio amplifier modules)

The artwork is the hardest part.

These days I occasionally make a PCB using paint as a etch resist and draw my circuit on the copper.

It is important to dufferentiate between DIY PCB etching which I agree is fairly easy, having done some myself. The copper on a PCB board is quite thin compared to the material thickness used in kits.

 

DIY double sided etching of .012" brass or similar has been the subject of articles some years ago. It was found that a high temperatures,  large etchant volume and continual agitation was required to get even results.

[djparkins]

12 hours ago, doilum said:

Since this thread is running so well:

First CAD etched kit?

 

 

Can anyone get before our first CAD etched kit in 1993 [in our Flightpath range] - for 1:32nd scale F-4C/D Phantom Jet Pipes. I'm sure they probably can!

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by djparkins

[djparkins]

On 17/02/2023 at 21:20, Bucoops said:

A good question - a quick google hasn't found much (apart from there is evidence of etching as a process during Cleopatra's time!)

 

Would that have been the kit for the Egyptian Railways 'Asp' Class, one of which was named 'Elizabeth Taylor' as I recall!

[Izzy]

The etched zinc sides were as said just copying the making of printing plates. This has a good measure of leeway as regards the depth of the etch. Nothing ultra precise. The Sayer-Chaplin parts took this forward by using brass, which required experimentation to find the right combination of etchant, temp, time etc. for the material and thickness. Double-sided took this several steps further by requiring precise registration of both litho tools along with getting the rates correct in that too little left the 'cusp' that will be familiar to many with early etches or the undercut that can occur if left 'cooking' for too long. Add into the mix different metals and thickness and it shows how far the process has come these days to be so reliable as a rule.  I say this as someone who in an early part of his life, late '60's onward, played about with large camera equipment (think small car size) in even larger darkrooms doing this for a living.  Anything really from about 1" square up to 16"x 20".

 

Bob

[BachelorBoy]

Perhaps someone with a Railway Modeller subscription could search the archive for the first mention of "brass kit"?

[doilum]

5 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

Perhaps someone with a Railway Modeller subscription could search the archive for the first mention of "brass kit"?

This may open up a worm hole leasing to those bags of half formed parts cut with snips or a band saw! I have an A4 models A4 that came Preloved and unbuilt that ended up costing almost Finney money. Lots of panel beating and lead loading eventually produced a half decent model of Wild Swan.

[Pint of Adnams]

See Iain Rice's Etched Loco Construction, Wild Swan, Chapter One - Evolution and Anatomy. Mentions Sayer-Chaplin of Ipswich, then reckons the first 'modern' kit was a Mallard Duke. Jamieson 'kits of parts' were around in the 1960s, from  Eames of Reading.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Pint of Adnams
Add Jamieson.

[hayfield]

The valve gear from Jamieson were etched (called photo engraving) but the kits them selves as far as I can remember were sheet which was stamped out

 

Sayer Chaplain rings a bell but I have only read about them

 

[Shed Driver]

Were Jamieson parts not punched out?

Hayfield We must have been typing at the same time

Edited February 19, 2023 by Shed Driver

[djparkins]

1 hour ago, Shed Driver said:

Were Jamieson parts not punched out?

Hayfield We must have been typing at the same time

Yes they were. I built an LMS  jubilee for a customer in the early ‘70s. Another nightmare!

[Sitham Yard]

7 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

Perhaps someone with a Railway Modeller subscription could search the archive for the first mention of "brass kit"?

searching for "etched brass" brings up the earliest UK product reference as the George Allan siphon in the March 1973 issue. However back in 1961 there are references to etched brass Interurban cars and Box Cab loco from the USA. I think these were RTR and etched brass may only refer to details. 

Andrew

[kevinlms]

8 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

Perhaps someone with a Railway Modeller subscription could search the archive for the first mention of "brass kit"?

In Railway Modeller for 1961 September, H.M. Pyrke describes building 3 locos for his well known layout of the S&DJR, the Berrow Branch. These Jamison kits were described thus.

 

"Briefly, they consist of nickel-silver parts pressed to correct shape and rolled or bent where necessary, which when soldered up, make the superstructure of the loco. They come in 2 types, the Mark III kit, where the builder does the whole job of the assembly, and the Mark IV kit, where a certain amount of the assembly has already been carried out."

 

Two pages of details as to the construction methods, of which he had help from John Harrison, who I believe was a professional model maker in 7mm?

 

But these kits aren't etched brass, but a pressed brass kit. I wonder what the Mark I & II versions were like?

[JeffP]

MkII: A set of instructions and some brass sheet.

 

MkI: Some brass sheet and a drawing of the loco you're going to build?

[Barclay]

Of course the American brass imports from Japan were basically etched kits that you bought pre-assembled weren't they? Not sure when the first were sold but 1950s I think?

[Shed Driver]

The Jamieson kit I have is for an NBR Atlantic.  It is described as a Hand Cut kit for which the small number produced precludes the economic preparation of special instructions for each kit.  The general diagram supplied is for an LMS 5XP along with 4 typed sheets.  This seems to be earlier than the Mk1 as described by JeffP.

 

Sorry about dragging this thread away from etched kits

 

Norman

[Shed Driver]

Missed from previous post

[hayfield]

I think at the beginning all but one person agreed these were not etched except for the valve gear were required

[Shed Driver]

In this kit the coupling rods were pieces of bullhead rail with holes drilled and the connecting rods were punched out n/s

Norman

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Shed Driver said:

In this kit the coupling rods were pieces of bullhead rail with holes drilled and the connecting rods were punched out n/s

Norman

 

That was the norm for all Jamieson locos

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Shed Driver said:

The Jamieson kit I have is for an NBR Atlantic.  It is described as a Hand Cut kit for which the small number produced precludes the economic preparation of special instructions for each kit.  The general diagram supplied is for an LMS 5XP along with 4 typed sheets.  This seems to be earlier than the Mk1 as described by JeffP.

 

Sorry about dragging this thread away from etched kits

 

Norman

I'm surprised at the early use of the postcode.

[Pint of Adnams]

5 hours ago, kevinlms said:

I'm surprised at the early use of the postcode.

Trialled in Norwich in 1959, applied in the London Postal District in the early 1960s and then rolled out across the reminder of the country from 1967, starting with Croydon. Reading was 'coded' around 1969.

I recognise the style of the box, instructions and parts as much the same as the LNER B1 I purchased around that time. Sold it uncompleted on an early iteration of RMWeb.

[roythebus1]

Some interesting memories here. The first brass kits were probably gauge 2 back in the late 1890s if you want to go back that far.

 

as for etching, that was mid 1960s when the lat Keith Dann of 00Scale Models in york Way N1 started selling etched nameplates. Alan Brackenborough done a lot of the artwork for them as well as artwork for the Kingsprint dry transfer sheets of the era. As I worked in the model shop in 1968 after Keith Dann's early demise in a car crash I got to meet the pioneers of the kit building industry. I became one of them when I started producing cast metal bus kits under the name GS Models. Patterns were initially made by Mike sheppard, one of the professional model makers at York Way. I was introduced to Adrian Swain who done the casting for me and lter produced superb quality patterns.

 

By 1970 I'd moved to being a guard on the underground but kept in touch as Adrian introduced me to George Allan who he was doing some casting for. The etched footbridge dates from about 1972, around the same time John Senior was producing the MOPOK coach kits. I've still got a lot of coach castings in stock from those days!

 

A move to Northampton in mid 1973 meant my place was a dropping off point for MOPOK stock for me to take to London, and Tony Dyer appeared on the scene selling me one of each of the Siphon etched kits along with a supply of the brand new cyanoacrylate adhesive. He didn't tell me it had a very short shelf life even unopened and it was unusable after about 6 months. I never did get round to building the kits which were quite complex.

 

From then on everyone and his dog seemed to be producing etched brass kits and there was a proliferation of cast kits being produced. My GS Models range of buses expanded and eventually I decided to do a Metropolitan Railway F class tank loco. Patterns were made by a chap called Ian who done a lot pf patterns for Langley Models. He used etched sheets for the whitemetal kit masters with a lot of etched rivet detail, possibly the first kit to utilise etched pattens. Sadly Ian passed away soon after completing these patterns.  I'd also planned to do an etched 1938 tube stock but that never materialised as MTK were doing one.

 

This never appeared. But I did get offered a load of their 1938 etched sheets. they were truly the most horrific ectings I've ever seen, not a straight edge in sight, nothing sqaure, rivet detail etched into the sheet, and no real way of forming the curve of the roof. there was about 200 of these sheets which Colin Massingham gave me. I ended up binning the lot. Maybe I should have kept a couple for posterity.

 

Mentioning my F class tank loco, Kemilway were to produce a chassis kit for it, but they failed to do so and the kit didn't sell due to lack of chassis. i found it has the same wheelbase as the Jinty...too late. I've still got a boxful of these body kits and have today been building the Wills/SE Finecast etched chassis they produced for their own F class body kit. Luckily their chassis is a perfect fit for my body kit, I may build a few more complete locos. At least I sold mine with transfers and crew.

Edited February 23, 2023 by roythebus1

[jwealleans]

Nowhere near the oldest, but this is a fairly elderly and by current standards crude looking kit which has popped up on Ebay.

 

Another new supplier on me - John Grey?

 

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by jwealleans