RCH 1907 Private Owner Wagons - with added 2024 range.

[BVMR21]

I think I have counted 4 of these wagons which would have been based in Wales with the Hereford one not being too far so maybe 5 wagons to get, though it would be good to have some more South Wales Coal Field wagons available in different numbers and also maybe some NCB internal users if any made it that far?

 

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

... During WW1 the private traders wagons were not pooled, so they usually remained in their peace time habitats. ...

... except when diverted on the Jellicoe Specials - though they probably went north, and returned, as complete trains without significant mixing with anything else.

[Star-rider]

18 hours ago, No Decorum said:

You have a point. We are always being told to model from a photograph. Manufacturers obviously pick a photograph (usually a sample of a new wagon) and base the livery on that. Consequently, different manufacturers produce their versions of wagons with the same livery and number. If memory serves me correctly, a Nathaniel Atrill wagon was produced by three manufacturers, all numbered 6. Nice to see that the Bullcroft Main Colliery wagon has a different number from the Hornby one. The question is, will the two jar from 3' away?

I couldn’t agree more – if all the manufacturers are working from one or two source books they will all come up with the same result, even if some of them would be happy to stick the same livery on a 4 or 5 plank body (I’m sure I have one example of this practice up in the loft).

 

It’s probably up to the more knowledgeable* of the modelling community to push correct examples in front of Rapido for them to consider for future batches. One could almost justify a “wishlist” poll for liveries on these wagons alone…

 

My own interest is in the GWR lines around the Black Country so I’m not sure if there are any strong candidates out of this batch for me, but maybe next time round. Anyway, I think my budget is already in Rapido’s hands with recent releases and the forthcoming Minks and Opens.

 

*I exclude myself from this category.

[Andy Hayter]

7 hours ago, JaymzHatstand said:

Oooooo! Now these do look lovely, a nice array of liveries too. One thing that I've always wondered, and never thought to ask is about the use and/or appearance of p/o wagons in mixed trains. I'm in the slow process of assembling a number of pre-grouping (c1917) wagons to push around an NER goods

 yard and was wondering how likely it would be for one (or two) to turn up in such a place? Would they be confined to more bulky flows between owning company and end merchant, or would the odd coal wagon find its way down a branch line?

 

I suppose that during WWI they would have been absorbed into the common pool, and could reasonably be assumed to be seen anywhere, if not a little care-worn?

 

The 'Griff' one is of particular interest to me, if only for the name, and I'm sure I could pick another couple to add a splash of colour to the (mostly) shades of grey that early wagons found themselves in!

 

Cheers

 

J

As @Nick Hollidayhas said, PO wagons on the NER would have been rare.  Your best bet would be specialist coals for specific uses - so Lancashire pit wagons supplying gas works and Welsh pit wagon supplying the malting and brewing industry with anthracite.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

As @Nick Hollidayhas said, PO wagons on the NER would have been rare.  Your best bet would be specialist coals for specific uses - so Lancashire pit wagons supplying gas works and Welsh pit wagon supplying the malting and brewing industry with anthracite.

 

That very much depends were on the North Eastern you are modelling. On the Northern and Central Divisions it is largely true that the railway company supplied wagons for mineral traffic - a situation which was much aided by the pit-to-port nature of much of the traffic (compare and contrast South Wales). But the Southern Division was very much a normal railway in respect of mineral traffic - PO wagons abounded in the areas where the company penetrated the Yorkshire coalfield, around Pontefract, for instance.

[Dungrange]

Obviously these are on a pre-grouping era underframe, but it appears that not all liveries represent the pre-grouping period.  

 

Can anyone advise as to what period the Annesley Colliery wagon represents?

 

https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product/annesley-colliery/

 

The modelled livery looks similar to those shown in the picture of Annesley Colliery in 1932 at https://miningheritage.co.uk/a-brief-history-of-annesley-colliery-1865-2000/ (about a quarter of the way down the page), but of course the livery may have been unchanged for many years.

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Dungrange said:

Obviously these are on a pre-grouping era underframe, but it appears that not all liveries represent the pre-grouping period.  

 

Can anyone advise as to what period the Annesley Colliery wagon represents?

 

https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product/annesley-colliery/

 

The modelled livery looks similar to those shown in the picture of Annesley Colliery in 1932 at https://miningheritage.co.uk/a-brief-history-of-annesley-colliery-1865-2000/ (about a quarter of the way down the page), but of course the livery may have been unchanged for many years.

 

A 1907 specification wagon could perfectly well be running in a much later livery style. It would have been repainted many times. A great many PO wagons were not owned outright by the firms whose livery they wore but were hired from one of the major wagon building firms, for whom wagon hire was as big a part of their business as wagon building. A typical hire contract was for a period of seven years, including a repaint at mid-term, and a repair contract. (In 1918 the repair side of the business was consolidated by the major builders into a single company, Wagon Repairs Ltd.) Thus a wagon built in 1912 could well be on its fifth or sixth repaint by the 1930s. It could also have come off hire with its original hirers and been re-hired to another firm. 

 

The Lightmoor Index gives Bill Hudson's Vol. 2 for Annesley; that I'm afraid I don't have; neither is there an HMRS photo. However, comparing the Rapido model with the colliery photo from 1932, I'm inclined to think the model represents an earlier style: the photo shows wagons with the name ANNESLEY spanning four planks rather than the model's three - bigger lettering is usually a good indication of a later style!

 

Perhaps it would be helpful if Rapido were to give references for the source material for each livery and an estimate of when that livery was current?

[MarkSG]

57 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

A 1907 specification wagon could perfectly well be running in a much later livery style. It would have been repainted many times. A great many PO wagons were not owned outright by the firms whose livery they wore but were hired from one of the major wagon building firms, for whom wagon hire was as big a part of their business as wagon building. A typical hire contract was for a period of seven years, including a repaint at mid-term, and a repair contract. (In 1918 the repair side of the business was consolidated by the major builders into a single company, Wagon Repairs Ltd.) Thus a wagon built in 1912 could well be on its fifth or sixth repaint by the 1930s. It could also have come off hire with its original hirers and been re-hired to another firm. 

 

Yes; a lot of people are under the impression that rolling stock being owned by a leasing company rather than the operator is a modern, post-privatisation thing. But, as you say, at least for PO stock, it's as old as the railways themselves.

 

57 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Perhaps it would be helpful if Rapido were to give references for the source material for each livery and an estimate of when that livery was current?

 

Indeed it would, yes. Even just including the "era" on their website product listing would be useful. I know it's a crude measurement, but a lot of retailers use that (eg, at Hattons and Rails you can restrict a search to a specific era or selection of eras), so having it as available data does make it easier for consumers to find what they want.

[Andy Vincent]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The Lightmoor Index gives Bill Hudson's Vol. 2 for Annesley;

The photo in Hudson is for wagon 195 and the livery (mostly) seems to match this photograph. The notes say that the wagon was built by Eastwood & Co of Chesterfield but is undated.

 

Whilst the livery seems to have been taken from this photograph, it has been applied to a generic wagon rather than the design of wagon in the photograph. This shows distinctive angled crown plates rather than semi-circular, the hinge for the end door is above the height of the body, Rapido used even planks whilst this wagon has variable height planks, the distinctive wooden door bangs are missing in the Rapido wagon and the original has an end door washer plate with a curved end that extends down to the cross bolts (like the one by the centre door).

 

The wagon in the photograph also has 9 leaf springs whilst the Rapido designs seem to use 5 leaf springs (the 1907 spec allows either pattern for 10 ton wagons). Older wagons were often refitted with 5 leaf springs later in life.

 

The Rapido livery has Annesley over three planks like the Hudson photograph. However, the photograph shows a black drop shadow to the lettering which appears to be missing on the Rapido version.

[Dungrange]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

However, comparing the Rapido model with the colliery photo from 1932, I'm inclined to think the model represents an earlier style: the photo shows wagons with the name ANNESLEY spanning four planks rather than the model's three - bigger lettering is usually a good indication of a later style!

 

Thanks for that observation, which I hadn't picked up on.  In the 1932 photograph I linked to, the lettering looks to be the same across the wagon fleet, which would imply that it wasn't a recently adopted livery.  If wagons were repainted every three or four years, this would imply that the livery carried in 1932 was introduced at least three or four years earlier.  The information on that page refers to a change in ownership in 1925, so at a guess that would be the point at which a new livery may have been adopted, making it, at a guess, a pre-1925 livery.

 

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Perhaps it would be helpful if Rapido were to give references for the source material for each livery and an estimate of when that livery was current?

 

That would certainly be helpful for the less knowledgeable among us.  Some have service dates that are legible on the solebar, which gives an indication of time period, but others could definitely do with some further details.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

Whilst the livery seems to have been taken from this photograph, it has been applied to a generic wagon rather than the design of wagon in the photograph.

 

Indeed, the purist would say that having modelled a Charles Roberts wagon, only liveries known to have been applied to exactly this type of wagon should be applied. On the other hand, at least they're not putting that livery on a RCH 1923 Specification wagon, which is what we would have seen from Bachmann or Oxford. (Meaning no disrespect to the quality of the Bachmann or Oxford model as a representation of an RCH 1923 Specification wagon.) There has, I suppose, to be some balance between purity and venality. Looking through the pictures of liveries to be produced, one can see a preference for the unusual and colourful. If true to nature, at least a third of the liveries they should be producing should be ones that are plain black with unshaded white lettering. But these people at Rapido have to eat.

[Dungrange]

15 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

The wagon in the photograph also has 9 leaf springs whilst the Rapido designs seem to use 5 leaf springs (the 1907 spec allows either pattern for 10 ton wagons). Older wagons were often refitted with 5 leaf springs later in life.

 

It is possibly unrealistic to expect Rapido to produce versions with both 5 and 9 leaf springs and if 5 leaf springs were more common in their later life, I can see why they made that choice.

 

17 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

The Rapido livery has Annesley over three planks like the Hudson photograph. However, the photograph shows a black drop shadow to the lettering which appears to be missing on the Rapido version.

 

The artwork does say that it is 'pre-production and subject to change', so this is perhaps something that @rapidoandy or @RapidoLinny have already picked up on and it may be correct in the final production models.

 

19 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

The photo in Hudson is for wagon 195 and the livery (mostly) seems to match this photograph. The notes say that the wagon was built by Eastwood & Co of Chesterfield but is undated.

 

This is perhaps why Rapido haven't given details of when the livery was current.  We know that there was a wagon that carried this livery (from that photograph), but we don't know with certainty when it carried that livery and possibly Rapido don't either.  It's maybe as well to give us no information, than incorrect information.

 

23 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

Whilst the livery seems to have been taken from this photograph, it has been applied to a generic wagon rather than the design of wagon in the photograph. This shows distinctive angled crown plates rather than semi-circular, the hinge for the end door is above the height of the body, Rapido used even planks whilst this wagon has variable height planks, the distinctive wooden door bangs are missing in the Rapido wagon and the original has an end door washer plate with a curved end that extends down to the cross bolts (like the one by the centre door).

 

I suppose that this also highlights the problem that manufacturer's face when modelling the distant past.  Were all of Annesley's wagon fleet built by Eastwood & Co of Chesterfield?  It appears that it they had a fairly large fleet, so it's conceivable that some were built by other builders and it is therefore possible that some may have been built by Charles Roberts.  If that were the case, then it is possible that the general livery is correct, but the number is not correct for a Charles Roberts wagon.  That could be solved by renumbering, but to what?  I'm guessing that there is little details on the Annesley wagon fleet beyond a couple of photographs.

[tomparryharry]

A bit of a repeat request, really. I wonder if it would be a good idea to actually not number  some of these proposed models, especially with the large wagon fleets that existed at the time. 

 

Some wagons did indeed have just the one or two numbers, but when we get to the likes of Ocean, Cambrian, and Naval, 4-figure numbers were quite common. 

 

Perhaps a USP for Rapido?

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

I'm guessing that there is little details on the Annesley wagon fleet beyond a couple of photographs.

 

Otherwise there would have been an article in the Turton series by now!

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, tomparryharry said:

A bit of a repeat request, really. I wonder if it would be a good idea to actually not number  some of these proposed models, especially with the large wagon fleets that existed at the time. 

 

Or at the very least put a different number on each side, so two can be run together. That ought to increase sales too...

[Andy Vincent]

36 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Looking through the pictures of liveries to be produced, one can see a preference for the unusual and colourful

Quite so! Annesley has certainly been a popular livery to use with both Bachmann (for TMC) and Dapol (also for TMC) having reproduced it on previous wagons

[The Johnster]

Well, I'm going to have to have at least one on Cwmdimbath as a token gesture, aren't I?  Early BR 'distressed PO remnant' livery with BR XPO 'P' prefix number preferably, but I'm happy to do my own distressing and renumbering.  Well done Rapido!

[RogerTE]

How about supplying wagons unpainted?

 

That way people who want specific liveries can do their own thing without having to obliterate, what I am sure will be, excellent Rapido applied paintwork.

 

 

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, RogerTE said:

How about supplying wagons unpainted?

 

That way people who want specific liveries can do their own thing without having to obliterate, what I am sure will be, excellent Rapido applied paintwork.

 

Or as kits, so people can have the fun of building them too.

 

That is to say, to my kit-oriented mind, the principal value of these RTR wagons is the high quality of livery application.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Compound2632

[Jammy2305]

One for those interested in the Bessey and Palmer wagon - It is suitable for GER and M&GN use!

 

Excerpt taken from Kelly's Directory of 1912:

 

[hmrspaul]

16 hours ago, RogerTE said:

How about supplying wagons unpainted?

 

That way people who want specific liveries can do their own thing without having to obliterate, what I am sure will be, excellent Rapido applied paintwork.

 

 

Lionheart tried this in 7mm with their nice take on the RCH 1923 PTs, I managed to get a couple at suitably reduced price from Dapol at a GoG exhibition. Not been repeated!

 

Paul

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, Jammy2305 said:

One for those interested in the Bessey and Palmer wagon - It is suitable for GER and M&GN use!

 

Excerpt taken from Kelly's Directory of 1912:

 

 

Unfortunately not quite. Turton's Third Collection has an article on this firm, pp. 14-15, in which is reproduced the photo in the HMRS collection upon which Rapido are basing this model:

 

 

[Embedded link to HMRS photo ref AAR223.]

 

This wagon is dubious as an RCH 1907 Specification wagon, since it was built in 1892 by Harrison & Camm for J. & J. Charlesworth, proprietors of several collieries in the South Yorkshire coalfield. It is seen here as rebuilt by Charles Roberts in 1927, so is not really suitable for the Great Eastern period. The end door arrangement, with the half corner plates, is unusual; if Rapido are tooling for this, it will probably be a one-off tooling. 

 

On the other hand, the wagon does appear to be 16 ft over headstocks and the style of the side knee washer plates, curving outwards at the bottom to meet the cross-rod end, matches the Rapido tooling.

 

I found a lot of this out when I naively tried upgrading the Hornby version, which used their 6-plank, 15 ft over headstocks, quasi-RCH 1887 Specification, body, thinking it might be suitable for my c. 1902 period:

 

 

However, Bessey & Palmer acquired a good number of 10 ton wagons, built by Metropolitan, in 1892-94, Nos. 215-224, 131-150, and 301-320, for which my upgraded Hornby wagon might pass if I alter that 7 to a 1! (Although I suspect a wagon painted in the 1890s would have the firm's name in smaller lettering, perhaps on only the top one or two planks.)

 

[E100]

Looking forward to getting the Scottish examples of this.

[Dungrange]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

It is seen here as rebuilt by Charles Roberts in 1927,

 

That photograph does look like the pre-production artwork that Rapido have produced, although I note that Rapido's artwork appears to have the date 20.1.22 on the solebar.  Unfortunately, I can't read the date on the solebar of the wagon that you posted, but it appears to be in the same position as shown on the model artwork.  Is that the only photograph of this wagon and was it definitely converted in 1927.

 

I guess even if details of the wagon are wrong, the livery appears to be correct for the pre-grouping period.  It seems to be the only East Anglian wagon in this batch.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

I guess even if details of the wagon are wrong, the livery appears to be correct for the pre-grouping period.  

 

Well, see my reservation about that in my post above.

 

3 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

That photograph does look like the pre-production artwork that Rapido have produced, although I note that Rapido's artwork appears to have the date 20.1.22 on the solebar.  Unfortunately, I can't read the date on the solebar of the wagon that you posted, but it appears to be in the same position as shown on the model artwork.  Is that the only photograph of this wagon and was it definitely converted in 1927.

 

In Turton, it can be made out to be 20.?.27 - but that 7 could be misread as a 2. 

 

I am beginning to fear that Rapido have used photos from the HMRS collection without reference to the context provided by Turton's volumes. (If they haven't got a complete set in their office, they have only to ask someone who has.)