RCH 1907 Private Owner Wagons - with added 2024 range.

[rapidoandy]

We have a complete set of Turton, Hudson and others.

 

Being honest if anyone thinks that each of these should be 100% perfect then they probably need to go back to scratch building. Some are very near and will fit on the tooling we have with the compromises we have to make.

 

Conversely if we only pick 100% accurate liveries you find that they are become rather bland and biased towards certain parts of the country - which will hurt sales.

 

Regarding un-numbered wagons - this isn’t really doable as the vast majority of customers want a model they can use straight from the box without having to apply transfers. Doing the same wagon with multiple numbers is possible - but factory MOQs make that harder and more of a risk.

 

Unpainted wagons are also not ideal - the factory don’t knock much off yet people will want it to be substantially lower than the standard price. 
 

Andy

[Buhar]

Even with Hudson and Turton and other researchers we only know a tiny fraction of the reality concerning PO wagons.  Ascertaining the timespan when an owner operated, how many wagons they had and from what builders or hirers and then what routes they used is now an impossible task for all but a few examples.  I think many modellers do well to make enough sense of the scarce information to create believable scenes.

 

Stephen's comment about the difference between NER (North) and NER (South) is a case in point as it had become received wisdom that PO wagons on NER lines was rarely seen.  As most have said, these wagons are a real step in the right direction.

 

The opportunity to have several wagons from the same firm would be great.  I wonder if Rapido might consider commissioning aftermarket transfers with alternative numbers on a backing that matches the wagon body colour.  Obviously if the grand plan is to alter the number on future iterations then there's no need, but it's a thought.

 

Alan

[Andy Vincent]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This wagon is dubious as an RCH 1907 Specification wagon, since it was built in 1892 by Harrison & Camm for J. & J. Charlesworth, proprietors of several collieries in the South Yorkshire coalfield. It is seen here as rebuilt by Charles Roberts in 1927, so is not really suitable for the Great Eastern period. The end door arrangement, with the half corner plates, is unusual; if Rapido are tooling for this, it will probably be a one-off tooling. 

I suspect that the end door was added when it was rebuilt: the angled brace looks notably thicker and wider than the one at the fixed end which might be to limit the impact of adding the knee for the end door. It is also notable that it has retained RCH 1887 buffers. Final hint that it had the end door added is the unusual retainers for the bottom plank at the open end which coincide with the positions of the original end stanchions. Normally this would have been retained by nibs on the buffer base plate.

 

All of which might suggest that the budget for rebuilding was modest for what was a 30 year old wagon - but it would make it a very interesting (scratchbuilt!) subject for a model

 

As to length, I am not entirely convinced that it was 16': it is just after the 1887 spec which focussed on 15' wagons which likely represented the typical wagon at that time and the brake lever seems to get close to the headstock whilst not looking unusually long. I will endeavour to manipulate and measure it later 

 

Incidentally, the HMRS index record has the (photo) date as 1927-12-02 - which I take to be December 1927 (rather than February!) but I will check with HMRS colleagues

Edited March 21, 2023 by Andy Vincent
Fixed sense! Added length comment

[Schooner]

6 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Regarding un-numbered wagons - this isn’t really doable...

 

6 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Unpainted wagons are also not ideal...

 

Does that mean there is no downside to having different numbers on opposite sides? @Compound2632's suggestion seems an excellent one, much used by the DIYers.

 

After all, I can't imagine too many of these are going to find homes on layouts with functioning wagon TTs...

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

I suspect that the end door was added when it was rebuilt: the angled brace looks notably thicker and wider than the one at the fixed end which might be to limit the impact of adding the knee for the end door. It is also notable that it has retained RCH 1887 buffers. Final hint that it had the end door added is the unusual retainers for the bottom plank at the open end which coincide with the positions of the original end stanchions. Normally this would have been retained by nibs on the buffer base plate.

 

All of which might suggest that the budget for rebuilding was modest for what was a 30 year old wagon - but it would make it a very interesting (scratchbuilt!) subject for a model

 

As to length, I am not entirely convinced that it was 16': it is just after the 1887 spec which focussed on 15' wagons which likely represented the typical wagon at that time and the brake lever seems to get close to the headstock whilst not looking unusually long. I will endeavour to manipulate and measure it later 

 

Incidentally, the HMRS index record has the (photo) date as 1927-12-02 - which I take to be December 1927 (rather than February!) but I will check with HMRS colleagues

 

Turton is of the opposite opinion, reasoning that as J. & J. Charlesworth shipped a lot of coal via the Humber ports, their wagons would perforce have been end-door ones. Certainly all the photos in Turton's article on the firm in his Eighth Collection are end door wagons, including a couple of splendid colliery view abounding in wagons which, from the presence of dumb buffer wagons, must date from before the Great War. But none with the half corner plates, as far as I can make out.

 

Conversely, it's not clear why Bessey & Palmer would have wanted end door wagons, as most of their business seems to have been inland, although they may have been receiving coal by sea as well as via Peterborough or the Spalding & Bourne line. 

 

As to the length, a tell-tale is the relationship between the spring shoe at the outer end and the end of the solebar. With 9 ft wheelbase and 3 ft springs, and 5" thick headstock, that will be 13" on a 15 ft wagon and 19" on a 16 ft wagon. I think one can see this difference if one compares Bessey & Palmer No. 743, a 16 ft wagon:

 

 

with Bessey & Palmer No. 713, a 15 ft wagon:

 

 

[Both embedded links to HMRS photos, references as on the images.]

 

Note how on No. 713, the spring shoe is just below the end of the headstock strap-bolt, whereas on No. 743, there is some distance between them, in the horizontal direction - 6".

 

The date on the solebar of No. 713 is 12/9/26; both wagons bear Charles Roberts plates. It too has an end door but equally, is almost certainly second-hand.

[PeterStiles]

5 hours ago, Schooner said:

downside to having different numbers on opposite sides

 

mostly it gives Elucidated Brethren heart attacks...

[fulton]

5 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

 

Does that mean there is no downside to having different numbers on opposite sides? @Compound2632's suggestion seems an excellent one, much used by the DIYers.

 

After all, I can't imagine too many of these are going to find homes on layouts with functioning wagon TTs...

I should think the problem would be, all the wagons sent back to Rapido, because they are "defective", have a go changing the number yourself, the method I would use would be to paint the body colour on to a piece of water slide paper, add the new number to that, varnish to seal, than cut out and apply over the old number, no risk of damage to the wagon, a bit of weathering and maybe a coat of matt varnish and you will hardly notice the change.

[Schooner]

I've no skin in this game - these Rapido wagons, excellent as they are, were built 50 years too late to suit my current needs! - but fair point and good technique, thanks for sharing :)

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Schooner
Credit to Rapido where due

[Compound2632]

53 minutes ago, Schooner said:

I've no skin in this game

 

Having posted commentary on these models several times, I should declare that I am in the same position - though by a margin of only five years. Modelling c. 1902, one develops antennae* for whether a wagon is after that date.

 

*Or at least goes bug-eyed squinting at the pictures.

[Compound2632]

The two unpainted models on the website are clearly test prints - on close inspection there are numerous defects in the finish. That perhaps makes it worth while to draw attention to an ommission on the end-door wagon that there might yet be time to correct.

 

On both wagons, the side knees are nicely represented - these are the substantial L-shaped iron brackets that are bolted to the middle bearers (also called transoms) and support the side sheeting (side planks) either side of the doorway. At the fixed end of a wagon, there are timber end pillars bolted to the headstocks that support the end sheeting. The end sheeting buts up to the inside of the side sheeting and the corner plate holds them together. However, at the door end, something else is needed to support the end of the side sheeting, and also the door hinge bar. These are the end knees, one each side, similar to the side knees except in having a loop at the top end for mounting the hinge bar; these end knees are bolted to the top of the headstock. 

 

It is these end knees that are missing from the model.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Compound2632

[Wickham Green too]

55 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

... It is these end knees that are missing from the model.

Take another look at the first image on this thread and you'll see the hinge bar within the wagon rather than showing above the planking ........ for some reason, known only unto Charles Roberts, they built wagons this way well into the '1923' period.

[Skinnylinny]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

The two unpainted models on the website are clearly test prints - on close inspection there are numerous defects in the finish. That perhaps makes it worth while to draw attention to an ommission on the end-door wagon that there might yet be time to correct.

 

On both wagons, the side knees are nicely represented - these are the substantial L-shaped iron brackets that are bolted to the middle bearers (also called transoms) and support the side sheeting (side planks) either side of the doorway. At the fixed end of a wagon, there are timber end pillars bolted to the headstocks that support the end sheeting. The end sheeting buts up to the inside of the side sheeting and the corner plate holds them together. However, at the door end, something else is needed to support the end of the side sheeting, and also the door hinge bar. These are the end knees, one each side, similar to the side knees except in having a loop at the top end for mounting the hinge bar; these end knees are bolted to the top of the headstock. 

 

It is these end knees that are missing from the model.

I did try to include the end knees, but unfortunately, the internal planking on the wagons is represented by a stepped vertical surface (to allow the body to be removed from the mould) and we've had to carry that on to the end door (although this is a separate part, and thus can have relief on both inside and outside, we found that it looked very strange having grooves on the door, and stepping on the sides!). This means that the door is over scale thickness at the bottom, and overlaps with where the end knees should be. I wasn't able to find a compromise (moving the end knee inwards was very obvious, as it no longer meets the hinge bar, and trying to "lean" it to match the end door angle looked even worse.

There are similar compromises on the fixed ends, although they're hopefully less obvious due to the lack of hinge bar.

Unfortunately, every plastic ready-to-run model has its compromises, and I came to the conclusion in this case that omission was better than having something visually obviously wrong!

[Edit: Oops, meant to post this from my @RapidoLinny account, sorry all!]

Edited March 21, 2023 by Skinnylinny

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Take another look at the first image on this thread and you'll see the hinge bar within the wagon rather than showing above the planking ........ for some reason, known only unto Charles Roberts, they built wagons this way well into the '1923' period.

 

Yes indeed, There were several ways of arranging the hinge bar: as modelled, where the end knees did not extend above the side sheeting; with the end knees extending above the sheeting so that the hinge bar was above the level of the sheeting (per Bessey & Palmer No. 713 above); or as that, but with the top of the end knees curved over so that the hinge bar was directly above the end door sheeting. The latter was, I think, a more old-fashioned arrangement.

[Compound2632]

Just now, Skinnylinny said:

Unfortunately, every plastic ready-to-run model has its compromises, and I came to the conclusion in this case that omission was better than having something visually obviously wrong!

 

Understood. A similar point was made in the discussion of the inside corner plates on the D1666, which also applies here. The philosophical question that then arises is whether such an omission is not in itself something that is visually obviously wrong!

 

As ever, the solution is to model the wagon loaded. A well-modelled load hides a multitude of sins!

[Dungrange]

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The philosophical question that then arises is whether such an omission is not in itself something that is visually obviously wrong!

 

But is it not easier for someone to add something that is missing (if so desired) than to remove something that is visually obviously wrong?

 

I'm hoping for more East Anglian wagons in the next batch, but there won't be a next batch if we don't buy from this batch, so I've taken the plunge and ordered three: Annesley Colliery, Bessey and Palmer and Great Central.  Whilst this discussion indicates that two of these may not be detail perfect, I know that they will be infinitely more accurate than anything I could scratch build, will probably run better than anything I could kit build and will be finished to a much higher standard that I'm likely to achieve if I were to apply my own livery.  Besides, they will be as good as my GNR 'not quite Mink' Gunpowder van (although I have no idea why that could possibly have ended up on the Wisbech and Upwell tramway)!

[MarkSG]

Unpainted wagons are something that regularly crops up in product discussions. But the reality, as has already been pointed out, is that the marginal extra cost of applying the livery is too small to be able to offer a significant discount for an unpainted wagon. The upfront costs in the R&D and tooling will be the same whatever colour the model is (or isn't), and painting is a relatively small part of the manufacturing cost as well.

 

When people mention unpainted wagons they're probably thinking of the ones that Dapol do, which are cheaper than painted versions. But you have to bear in mind that those are all older toolings which have long since repaid the development costs, and therefore can be sold at whatever price covers the manufacturing alone.

 

On the other hand, I do understand why people don't like the idea of painting over an already applied livery - somehow, it feels a bit like vandalism, especially if what you're painting over is better quality than what you will be replacing it with! Maybe the solution is to offer a very simple, beige livery with minimal decoration, that's still good enough to use RTR if you're so inclined but is a lot more receptive to being overpainted for those who want to do that.

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

Unpainted wagons are something that regularly crops up in product discussions. 

 

I suspect that anyone willing to take on painting a PO wagon livery - and building up the technique for applying POWSides rub-down lettering - is also willing to take on building a kit. 

 

19 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

Maybe the solution is to offer a very simple, beige livery with minimal decoration

 

Any colour you want, so long as it's black.

[Dungrange]

38 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

Maybe the solution is to offer a very simple, beige livery with minimal decoration, that's still good enough to use RTR if you're so inclined but is a lot more receptive to being overpainted for those who want to do that.

 Why beige? If you want minimal decoration, just start with this one - https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product/great-western/ 😀

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 Why beige? If you want minimal decoration, just start with this one - https://rapidotrains.co.uk/product/great-western/ 😀

 

I rather like the choice of GW and GC hired wagons. Both on hire from Ince, I note.

[MR Chuffer]

43 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

GW

Looked the picture up out of interest and its showing split spoke wheels? I thought the GW, along with the Midland, was a predominately solid spoke wagon operator

Edited March 21, 2023 by MR Chuffer

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

Looked the picture up out of interest and its showing split spoke wheels? I thought the GW, along with the Midland, was a predominately solid spoke wagon operator

 

But remember that this is not a GW-built wagon, or one built to GW order, but a wagon on hire to the GW from Ince. In the 19th century it was not unusual for the railway companies to hire mineral wagons from the trade - the Midland was doing so into the mid-1880s - these GW and GC hires were late examples of the practice. The GW had very few mineral wagons of its own, excepting loco coal wagons, as a matter of policy; in the GC case, I imagine as a matter of necessity - lack of capital to build its own. There have been some articles on GW hired wagons in Pannier, but I don't have them. I think @wagonman can give chapter and verse.

[MR Chuffer]

Thanks. @Compound2632, for clarifying

[BVMR21]

Anyone know how many Model Shops/Groups have commissioned some of these wagons? I know Derails has but I can't seem to find much more info than that.

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, BVMR21 said:

Anyone know how many Model Shops/Groups have commissioned some of these wagons? I know Derails has but I can't seem to find much more info than that.

 

There's a whole rolling gallery on the Rapido website; I count eight different liveries from four shops.

[Edwardian]

On 16/03/2023 at 11:59, rapidoandy said:

Rapido Trains UK is to add some of the railway's unsung heroes to its range of 'OO' gauge wagons: five- and seven-plank open wagons to the Railway Clearing House's 1907 standards.

 

 

The Railway Clearing House was formed in 1842 and would go on to manage the flow of wagons between railway companies, standardise mileage rates and even provided neutral ground for railway managers to meet.

 

It issued a set of standards for goods wagon design in 1907, which were used by railway companies and wagon builders alike. Many thousands of private owner wagons were built to the RCH standards (which were revised in 1923) and many lasted until BR started to phase out wooden-bodied wagons in the 1960s. Those in industrial service continued to earn their keep until much later.

 

 

Rapido UK Sales & Marketing Manager Richard Foster said, “The RCH’s 1923 open wagon design has been produced by many different ‘OO’ gauge manufacturers over the years but the original 1907 design has never been produced before in ‘OO’. We thought that that was something that needed rectifying as soon as possible!”

 

Rapido UK has selected the 9ft wheelbase underframe and will offer two main variants: the five-plank with side doors and the seven-plank with side and end doors.

 

 

Rapido’s UK design team has also been able to include the following detail differences:

·        Ribbed- or smooth-tapered buffers

·        Square, rounded or Ellis axleboxes

·        Straight or bent ‘V’ hangers

·        Split- or solid-spoke wheels

·        Single- or double-sided brakes

 

 

The order book for these wagons is open and you can either order from your local Rapido Trains UK stockist or direct via our website.

https://rapidotrains.co.uk/rch-1907-private-owner-wagons/

 

 

 An excellent decision. Thank you Andy, Linny and the Rapido team.