RCH 1907 Private Owner Wagons - with added 2024 range.

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, Craigw said:

I always understood that red and black were not differentiated  on the older films (as you say) and I take that Skinner wagon as red with two green planks, not the other way around.  

 Ergo, I think Rapido need to reverse the colours!

 

Ah, but you haven't seen the two photos of Skinner's father's wagons, which are positively identified by the Gloucester info boards as green with two red planks. The colours are barely distinguishable but I think one can just discern that the bottom two planks appear darker than the top three or four. Those photos were certainly taken with a red-insensitive emulsion. But the 1936 photo of Butler's red wagon that I posted demonstrates that by the thirties, Gloucester's photographer was using a red-sensitive emulsion. So to my mind, the evidence points to Rapido have done the right thing in following the published interpretation, for all that the author of that may have intended the opposite!

[Andy Vincent]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

the two photos of Skinner's father's wagons

But surely all sons do the reverse of what fathers wanted - so that would make it red with two green planks ;-)

[Dunsignalling]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It seems to me that you are saying the livery was red with a green stripe, contradicting what you wrote in PO Wagons of Wiltshire:

 

 

It is evidently upon this authoritative statement that Rapido have based their livery.

 

With your book in hand, I would draw attention to the wagon for C.W, Butler of Swindon, a Gloucester product of 1936:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of HMRS photo ref ACH030.]

 

This is stated to be red on the info board; without that one might assume it to be grey. But the appearance is the same as that of the stripe on the Skinner wagon. So I think that this is evidence that by the 1930s Gloucester's photographer was using film or plates with a red-sensitive emulsion.

 

This can be contrasted with the technology of 1904:

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of HMRS photo ref ACH117.]

 

Of course we don't know that the same shade of red was used in these two cases...

 

Just to add my own note of uncertainty, I'm not convinced that the ironwork on S. Skinner's wagon is black rather than body colour.

 

I am extremely wary of works photographs where livery colours are concerned.

 

In the case of the Butler wagon, it may well be that GRCW's photographer had begun using more modern emulsions by 1936.

 

However, it's also possible that photographic grey might have been applied to prevent the wagon body being incorrectly rendered as "all-over-black". 

 

The one thing we can be reasonably certain of is that the corner plates were black.

 

John

 

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

In the case of the Butler wagon, it may well be that GRCW's photographer had begun using more modern emulsions by 1936.

 

However, it's also possible that photographic grey might have been applied to prevent the wagon body being incorrectly rendered as "all-over-black". 

 

I understand your caution but I would say that with the large body of Gloucester official photos that we have, it is possible to make comparisons between photos taken at around the same time, and between photos taken at different times, and draw some conclusions with a good degree of confidence. I will also say that I have seen no evidence of Gloucester using "photographic grey" on PO wagons. 

 

On the other hand, since the usual description board is absent from the photo, the identification of the colours of the Skinner wagon as green and red is entirely circumstantial, based on what the description boards say for his father's wagons seventeen years earlier. It might actually be blue and yellow! Also, there is some evidence that the Gloucester description boards aren't always right, the board from the previous photo having been left in place... 

 

So it comes down to a question of what is the most likely interpretation, based on the available evidence. I think Rapido have made the best choice, barring my minor doubt about the colour of the vertical ironwork, which @RapidoLinny has effectively answered, though, again, some parts of their argument is circumstantial.

 

And this is just one wagon out of half a million!

Edited March 24, 2023 by Compound2632

[fulton]

For the PO experts, comments on this photo, Bolton 1922, Britain from Above. complete with propped up door. 

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, fulton said:

Bolton 1922

 

Very nice, showing a mix of 10 ton and 12 ton wagons of various ages and sizes, demonstrating that if you're running more than one wagon from any given firm, they should probably be of different ages and design. (Sorry Rapido!) No. 1363 in the foreground is unusually long - at least 16' 6" or possibly even 17' 0" whereas the wagon to the left of it is probably only 15' 0" over headstocks. It has "Bolton" on the left and its number on the right; the RCH requirement by this date was for the number at the left-hand end, ass seen on the other wagons, but I'm not sure when that came in, other than that it was before early 1917. The wagon behind that is slightly longer, maybe 15' 6"; I think its neighbour behind No. 1363 is of the same type. Nos. 1437 and 146? on the back road seem to be the same large type as No. 1363, as does the one along from them, though its paintwork looks rather more worn. Either there were two batches of wagons of the size, with one recently bought, or one batch with some of them having had a first repaint. 

 

There's an article on Hulton in A.J. Watts, Private Owner Wagons from the Ince Waggon & Ironworks Co. (HMRS, 1998) p. 84, illustrated with a couple of Ince-built 12-ton end-door wagons, No. 2107 of 1911 (one of an order of 50), with Bolton as the address as in the above photo, and No. 248 of 1916, marked Huyton Quarry; both registered with the LNWR. Hulton had a large number of wagons, 932 ordered from the Ince Co. between 1886 and 1899 and a further 457 between 1900 and 1911, so a good proportion of their fleet will have antedated the RCH 1907 specification at the time of this photo. there were probably at this date also rebuilt pre-1886 wagons in their fleet, originally built with dumb buffers. 

 

Watts mentions the Brackner family as having a stake in both the Hulton Colliery Co. and Ince, so that the one should be a customer of the other is hardly surprising.

[Wickham Green too]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

... unusually long - at least 16' 6" or possibly even 17' 0" ...

Probably got that from Dapol ! 🙄

 

Measuring on the screen, the underframe is VERY NEARLY twice the wheelbase - suggesting almost 18' on 9' !

Edited April 14, 2023 by Wickham Green too

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Probably got that from Dapol ! 🙄

 

Measuring on the screen, the underframe is VERY NEARLY twice the wheelbase - suggesting almost 18' on 9' !

 

Indeed! But I agree with your comment - 9 ft wheelbase and a timber underframe clearly indicate it's not a Dapol (&c.) one! But I'd point out that the 12 ton open and covered merchandise wagons built from the grouping onwards were mostly 17' 6" over headstocks on 9' 0" wheelbase, the exception being mostly fitted vehicles with 10' 0" wheelbase. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Compound2632

[MarkSG]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Very nice, showing a mix of 10 ton and 12 ton wagons of various ages and sizes, demonstrating that if you're running more than one wagon from any given firm, they should probably be of different ages and design. (Sorry Rapido!)

 

As was said very early on in this topic...

 

On 16/03/2023 at 13:03, RapidoLinny said:

If these sell well, we'd like to look into other body styles to expand the range further.

 

...so we could well end up with multiple versions of the more popular liveries anyway, which I think is a Good Thing. And, for the same reason, I hope Rapido aren't too averse to repeating liveries that have already been done by other manufacturers. Particularly for the era that these models represent, a pair (or more) of similar, but not identical, wagons is more realistic than a couple that are either completely the same or completely different.

[Miss Prism]

On 16/03/2023 at 11:59, rapidoandy said:

·        Square, rounded or Ellis axleboxes

 

Does 'square' mean Gloucester (which was rectangular, rather than square, to be pedantic), and does 'rounded' mean Attocks?

 

(Just caught up with this thread - congratulations Rapido.)

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Does 'square' mean Gloucester (which was rectangular, rather than square, to be pedantic), and does 'rounded' mean Attocks?

 

The Gloucester 4S axlebox is an example of a square-bottomed grease axlebox but by no means the only type (think of Great Western grease axleboxes). The round-bottomed type included ones to Attock's patent, but again not exclusively so. The Gloucester Wagon Co. was using round-bottomed axleboxes up to the mid/late-1890s. 

[RapidoLinny]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Does 'square' mean Gloucester (which was rectangular, rather than square, to be pedantic), and does 'rounded' mean Attocks?

 

(Just caught up with this thread - congratulations Rapido.)

"Square" in this case means "rectangular", as you correctly point out, but without the "Gloucester" raised text, as other builders used very similar designs (externally, at least!). Ditto the "rounded" ones - they're intended to be able to represent the round-bottomed-Attock axleboxes, but also other round-bottomed grease axleboxes (such as the early GWC ones mentioned by @Compound2632). One of those cases where to represent all the possible varieties would have been impossible, but at least the shape will be correct, and those that wish to detail further (for example by adding the "GLOUCESTER" text, or a little dry-brushing of the edges of the round-bottomed 'boxes to represent the ridges on the Attock Patent box) can do so. The Ellis axleboxes, with their distinctive shape, weren't quite either, so got their own representation as they were quite common.

[BenL]

If there’s anyone else out there who, like me, has been looking out for a version of these wagons suitable for the wartime/postwar Big 4 period, the just announced Sherwood commission from Malc’s models seems to fit the bill - it has the post-39 diagonal white stripe at the door end and what looks like a 1943 repainting date on the solebar.

 

There’s a 1943 pic of a similar Sherwood wagon here:

https://hmrs.org.uk/aat529-sherwood-mansfield-old-10t-7-plank-s-e-575-op-1943-chas-roberts-yard-poor-coal-load-distributio.html

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by BenL

[Wickham Green too]

Hmmm - do I want to replace my thirty-year old Slaters effort ??!?

 

 

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Hmmm - do I want to replace my thirty-year old Slaters effort ??!?

 

Supplement, perhaps. No one would want to replace models of such character.

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Supplement, perhaps. No one would want to replace models of such character.

Ah ........ but could I decide which one to renumber ? - and is there any evidence of a lookalike ? ....................... and should I really be tearing what's left of my hair out over such matters ? .............................. 

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Ah ........ but could I decide which one to renumber ? - and is there any evidence of a lookalike ? ....................... and should I really be tearing what's left of my hair out over such matters ? .............................. 

 

One loaded, one empty...

[Pteremy]

When it comes to a batch with post nationalisation liveries these would be a good wagon to present in distressed bare wood.

[Wickham Green too]

How many lasted long enough to get that threadbare ?

[Skinnylinny]

There is certainly photographic evidence of pre-'23 private owner wagons lasting into BR service, both in worn PO livery with a P number, and in unpainted wood (also with a P number). Add to that the possibility of them ending up in industrial internal use, and I reckon there's probably quite a number that lasted that late!

[Pteremy]

29 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

How many lasted long enough to get that threadbare ?

 

At the end of volume 3 in Larkin's 'Acquired Wagons' series, which deals with 1923 spec wagons, is a promise of coverage of pre grouping and 1907 spec wagons. Volume 5 is about to be published, with a focus on 'open goods', so maybe they will be swept up into that. But I think that there are further volumes 6 and 7 in the pipeline, so it maybe that one of those will provide a better fit.

[Covkid]

7 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

How many lasted long enough to get that threadbare ?

 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Covkid said:

 

 

Scots Nationalists been at that one?

[Covkid]

Plenty survived in NCB colliery use into the 1960s, admittedly not on BR lines.  You could get away with a train of internal users at an exchange yard anywhere in Staffordshire and Warwickshire and probably many other areas too.

 

Clearly Rapido need to step up to the plate with Staffordshire ands Warwickshire first though !!!    

[Covkid]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Scots Nationalists been at that one?

No.  The St Andrews cross was very NCB Staffs and Warks