Is it really worth as much as you bought it for?

[newbryford]

£300k collection sells for £75k

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-65274446

[Captain Slough]

I'm currently downsizing my excessively-sized collection via eBay.   

 

The weirdest thing has been the profit on wagons and carriages. Bachmann mineral wagons that I bought for £3.50 each in the mid 1990s are going out for £10 each. And a Lima DMU centre car made £44 last week. I paid that much for a whole DMU ...

 

Locos are going at a loss. But then I'm not doing this to make a profit and I hope their new owners enjoy them.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Captain Slough

[TinTracks]

Hi. This isn't about trains but it is relevant to the question

 My dad passed away in 2015. He had been an avid collector of Crown Derby porcelain and owned 100s of pieces. Mother couldn't stand the sight of the stuff so on his death she instructed me to ''get bl00dy rid'' 

  Me and the missus spent about a week or so of afternoons fishing empty boxes from the loft and marrying up boxes/ cetificates/ items (also dusting off everything.) I took the whole lot over to an auction house near Wensleydale. They did an excellent job of listing, taking pictures and publicising the sale. After deductions mother received a cheque for just under 12k. The trouble is that I found my dad's handwritten ''stock book'' in which he recorded his expenditure. I stopped counting at about 40k !!! I bet mother didn't know the extent of his spending😉 and I didn't tell her

 In a nutshell the percentage of loss is similar to the above model train sale.

Apologies for rambling on. Regards, Rich

[DenysW]

About one-third to one-half what you paid for it, providing it's still in good condition and has the box. Lower losses if it's trendy - HO-scale Big Boys get 50% more at auction than Challengers, despite the change from 4-6-6-4 to 4-8-8-4 being a lot less than this.

 

Buy to enjoy, not to invest.

[sncf231e]

Buy Märklin, not Hornby, and your heirs will be happy.

Regards

Fred

[RFS]

I did browse the auction and was gobsmacked by how much there was being sold off from a single collector. Even more amazed when it came from a small terraced house! The problem with a mass sell-off like this is the difficulty of finding enough willing buyers for this amount of stuff all at once. Plus -

 

- 36% buyers premium. 

- No condition reports at this auction. You have to buy and hope as in most cases all you see are the boxes as everything is "sold as seen".

- Getting your lots from Cockermouth.

 

etc.

 

 

[Mark Saunders]

The problem is VAT at current prices takes a sixth of the price off, then depreciation depending on condition and box; followed by fashion and has someone released a more desirable version since?

 

Selling at and or buying at auction attracts fees to the auction house!

[kevinlms]

8 hours ago, TinTracks said:

Hi. This isn't about trains but it is relevant to the question

 My dad passed away in 2015. He had been an avid collector of Crown Derby porcelain and owned 100s of pieces. Mother couldn't stand the sight of the stuff so on his death she instructed me to ''get bl00dy rid'' 

  Me and the missus spent about a week or so of afternoons fishing empty boxes from the loft and marrying up boxes/ cetificates/ items (also dusting off everything.) I took the whole lot over to an auction house near Wensleydale. They did an excellent job of listing, taking pictures and publicising the sale. After deductions mother received a cheque for just under 12k. The trouble is that I found my dad's handwritten ''stock book'' in which he recorded his expenditure. I stopped counting at about 40k !!! I bet mother didn't know the extent of his spending😉 and I didn't tell her

 In a nutshell the percentage of loss is similar to the above model train sale.

Apologies for rambling on. Regards, Rich

Agreed, my late mother had a fair number of collectable cottages - just odd examples and certainly not full collections - there were 100s of individual designs made!

No one in the family wants them, except some of us have taken an example or two each.

But looking on auction sites, they will go for much less than she could possibly have purchased them for, despite having boxes and certificates. But I don't see any problem, my mother enjoyed collecting them - that's all that mattered.

I certainly aren't interested in working out how much she spent! Exactly the same applies to my trains!

[BR traction instructor]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I haven’t purchased anything over the decades in which I have been modelling because of what monetary value someone might attach to it, instead I have thoroughly enjoyed my hobby. The biggest single problem nowadays is an abject failure to see the value of something beyond its monetary worth. Knowing the price of everything can mean knowing the value of nothing.

 

BeRTIe

Edited April 15, 2023 by BR traction instructor

[Helmdon]

1 hour ago, BR traction instructor said:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I haven’t purchased anything over the decades in which I have been modelling because of what monetary value someone might attach to it, instead I have thoroughly enjoyed my hobby. The biggest single problem nowadays is an abject failure to see the value of something beyond its monetary worth. Knowing the price of everything can mean knowing the value of nothing.

 

BeRTIe

Exactly, I’ve managed to put together a decent representation of pretty well any locomotive class you might have seen at Woodford Halse from Nationalisation to the handover to London Midland Region in the late 50s. 
 

I dread to think what it would come to, especially the sillier prices I’ve paid for the more niche stuff (L3 and C13 I’m looking at you), but the point is I’ve done it because it’s what interests me, not because I think ‘when I come to sell all this someone as daft as me is going to get their cheque book out.’

Edited April 15, 2023 by Helmdon

[Enterprisingwestern]

11 hours ago, RFS said:

 The problem with a mass sell-off like this is the difficulty of finding enough willing buyers for this amount of stuff all at once.

 

You cannot sell in a day (at sensible prices) what took a lifetime to collect, it's just not possible.

 

It constantly surprises me that auction houses don't have enough oil in their collective lamps to realise that what is the equivalent of flooding the market will do to prices, yes, eBay has thousands of items on sale at any given point, but look how many go unsold and get relisted, an auction house has to sell on the day.

It's good for mendacious chisellers though!

 

Mike.

[Roddy Angus]

When selling plastic model kits on ebay, I noticed that bundling a kit together with separately available etched and resin enhancements rarely achieved a good selling price.  I think that this was probably because those that wanted the enhancement parts already had the base kit and those that just wanted the kit didn't want to pay for the enhancement parts.  Neither type of buyer wanted to pay for the bits they didn't want/need.

 

My view is that you should always sell items individually to get the best price. Then buyers can bid for only what they need.

 

Regards

 

Roddy

[sjp23480]

12 hours ago, RFS said:

I did browse the auction and was gobsmacked by how much there was being sold off from a single collector. Even more amazed when it came from a small terraced house! The problem with a mass sell-off like this is the difficulty of finding enough willing buyers for this amount of stuff all at once. Plus -

 

- 36% buyers premium. 

- No condition reports at this auction. You have to buy and hope as in most cases all you see are the boxes as everything is "sold as seen".

- Getting your lots from Cockermouth.

 

etc.

 

 

Me too, I had my eye on some Dapol 22s.  IIRC there were 3 identical lots with the same pair of locos: 6100 and 6112. 

 

They went for £110-£120 per lot, so £60 per loco. When you add the 35% fees/VAT and £15-£20 p&p the cost soon racks up.   

 

~£180 per pair is fair value for money.

[Captain Slough]

>My view is that you should always sell items individually to get the best price. Then buyers can bid for only what they need.

 

Doesnt always apply though. I'm getting higher prices per vehicle when selling bundles of 3 to 9 matching wagons/coaches than selling individually because buyers will place a premium on being able to obtain a matching rake. I think the case you highlight though does apply w/r/t kits and add-on parts

[Erichill16]

12 hours ago, RFS said:

The problem with a mass sell-off like this is the difficulty of finding enough willing buyers for this amount of stuff all at once. Plus -

 

 

 

My cousin passed away a few years ago now and he had at least 1000 HO European locos and equivalent amount of other items. He asked me to be an executor  of his will but for reasons not relevant here this never happened. He was a very intelligent chap and said in his will it said how it should be disposed off. 
To this day I don’t know what happened to the items but he did leave me an O gauge BR 50 and my MRC the same loco in gauge 1. 
We were going to make a display of BR 50 in all the scales as I have a model in N  and Z. All that was missing was a TT version. I was hoping to find where the collection had gone in order to purchase one and so fulfil our ambition.

[Wheatley]

None of mine will be worth even half what I paid for it, despite having all the boxes (for the locos at least) its all been renumbered, weathered, had the tension locks snipped off and replaced with something less obtrusive, and been  generally mucked about with. Mrs W has been instructed to have it buried with me or give it and the layouts a Viking funeral. 

[hayfield]

 

About 20 years ago when I was into golf and done nothing with my model railway for ten or more years, my wife suggested I sold off my model railway. I compromised and started selling off all my RTR items and kept my kits. I was surprised at what I sold it all for on eBay, it was an investment as even unboxed items sold well. Also some SMP built turnouts sold for a kings ransom in relation to what I paid in the mid 70's from a shop in Uxbridge. BUT I was selling into a retail auction environment.

 

Firstly it shows that using an auction realises wholesale prices.

Secondly not just with model railways just because you spend £300,000 does not mean you will make a profit. Buying mass produced items which have been made in their thousands unless you buy them at knockdown prices will never be an investment

 

Look at how much you can buy second hand kits for. Recently I have bought a Southeastern Finecast  GWR 2251. It had just been started and had all the extras. An invoice from May 2015 was for £148. I paid £60 inc postage £7 less than the wheelset costs today, let alone the kit and motor etc

 

Most model railway items bought now might be seen as collectables, but very few collectables are investments. Equally just because an items at the moment may be seen as an investment, there is no guarantee it will continue to rise in value as things go in and out of fashion  

[hayfield]

13 hours ago, RFS said:

I did browse the auction and was gobsmacked by how much there was being sold off from a single collector. Even more amazed when it came from a small terraced house! The problem with a mass sell-off like this is the difficulty of finding enough willing buyers for this amount of stuff all at once. Plus -

 

- 36% buyers premium. 

- No condition reports at this auction. You have to buy and hope as in most cases all you see are the boxes as everything is "sold as seen".

- Getting your lots from Cockermouth.

 

etc.

 

 

 

What you have summed up is the worst selling conditions to achieve a decent sale price, and don't forget there is commission to be paid.

 

I guess the cost selling this way by auction is very high plus as you have said floods the market depressing the market

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

You cannot sell in a day (at sensible prices) what took a lifetime to collect, it's just not possible.

 

It constantly surprises me that auction houses don't have enough oil in their collective lamps to realise that what is the equivalent of flooding the market will do to prices, yes, eBay has thousands of items on sale at any given point, but look how many go unsold and get relisted, an auction house has to sell on the day.

It's good for mendacious chisellers though!

 

Mike.

I suspect that they just want to get rid of them and move on to the next collection.

 

After all they will have signed a deal with the sellers, and advised them of the percentage deductions. The costs of having 2 (or more) dates of selling, would increase the costs, without any guarantee that the total income would be any higher.

[Farang]

This auction was advertised in the Modeller which I received late morning on the 13th, the day of the sale. The collection sold for about 25% of the retail price.  Was that the hammer prices or that price plus buyers premium? Did the auctioneer advise the seller that this was the likely outcome? After commission the seller would have received (much) less.

 

I wonder if a better price would have been achieved by selling to a dealer? Look through the Modeller and there are 20+ dealers wanting to buy collections. Some  advertising "top prices" paid. Has anyone experience of selling to dealers and the level of prices obtained? Those old enough to remember the "Beattie's Exchange" will recall that items were bought at about 33% of retail price and sold for about 66% of retail. I believe that used to be about the norm for second-hand railway equipment. These days I suspect dealers will buy as low as possible and sell as high as possible, which is good business.  I look at prices at toy fairs, Sandown Park (not that much railway), for example and suspect at least 95% of goods get taken home. They've probably never heard of the Roman slogan - SPQR - small profits, quick returns.

[kevinlms]

6 minutes ago, Farang said:

This auction was advertised in the Modeller which I received late morning on the 13th, the day of the sale. The collection sold for about 25% of the retail price.  Was that the hammer prices or that price plus buyers premium? Did the auctioneer advise the seller that this was the likely outcome? After commission the seller would have received (much) less.

 

I wonder if a better price would have been achieved by selling to a dealer? Look through the Modeller and there are 20+ dealers wanting to buy collections. Some  advertising "top prices" paid. Has anyone experience of selling to dealers and the level of prices obtained? Those old enough to remember the "Beattie's Exchange" will recall that items were bought at about 33% of retail price and sold for about 66% of retail. I believe that used to be about the norm for second-hand railway equipment. These days I suspect dealers will buy as low as possible and sell as high as possible, which is good business.  I look at prices at toy fairs, Sandown Park (not that much railway), for example and suspect at least 95% of goods get taken home. They've probably never heard of the Roman slogan - SPQR - small profits, quick returns.

That's assuming that those responsible for winding up the estate, are the least bit interested. Remember, it might not be a family member, but some corporate entity, that just wants to get the business over and done with and apply their charges.

Probably, even have 'rules' that say goods have to go to auction.

[Hibelroad]

I would never buy model railway items for profit, it is very much a field where if you want to make a small fortune you need to start with a large fortune. The auction house will have put in a lot of work in collecting, sorting and cataloging all those items so I doubt they made too much profit. Just enjoy the models you have, if you do need to sell in the future due to changing scale or whatever then just accept the going rate, if you make a profit that will be a bonus. 

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Hibelroad said:

 The auction house will have put in a lot of work in collecting, sorting and cataloging all those items so I doubt they made too much profit.

 

 

In this instant it was reported that the buyers premium was 35%, plus they charge the owner (usually 20%) so they will take quite a lump sum.

 

Looking at another well known auction house looking at loco kit lots, I am usually astonished about what they put together to make a lot.

 

Are 3 of the same loco worth than 3 different locos from the same region ? I can understand wagons being more valuable in multiples, especially modern block working. But locos ?  Shows I am not a collector

 

I think these auction houses make a decent profit with minimal risk, as they work on commission and control the money, and sell as seen with no guarantees other than authentication (who is going to knock off a Lima loco)

 

As said a lifetime of collecting needs disposing of carefully, not in what is basically a fire sale

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

That's assuming that those responsible for winding up the estate, are the least bit interested. Remember, it might not be a family member, but some corporate entity, that just wants to get the business over and done with and apply their charges.

Probably, even have 'rules' that say goods have to go to auction.

 

You make a good point, the corporate entity only want to shift "the items", whatever they might be.

I reckon the family of the collector, by the time auction house and corporate entity's fees are taken into account, will get two thirds of f#ck all.

 

Mike.

[kevinlms]

14 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

You make a good point, the corporate entity only want to shift "the items", whatever they might be.

I reckon the family of the collector, by the time auction house and corporate entity's fees are taken into account, will get two thirds of f#ck all.

 

Mike.

One third of f#ck all - if you don't mind. 2 bites of the fruit, has already been taken! 😞