Is it really worth as much as you bought it for?

[ess1uk]

I’ve got a load to shift from my Dad’s layout and I’m not expecting to get much for any of it.

 

[The Johnster]

9 hours ago, montyburns56 said:

These Trix Footplateman Construction kits are interesting as as I've never heard of them before. They seem to be kit versions of the Trix locos, a bit like the Triang CKD kits.

 

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/mitchells/catalogue-id-srmit10172/lot-0498817f-5e02-45d6-82aa-afce010b5b9a

 

 

Pretty much.  Back in the day I had the 'Footplateman' Western; it could be assembled with a screwdriver and no glue was needed; I wouldn't have used the term 'construction kit', which suggests something you glue together and paint.  Assembly was straightforward, included lit headcode panel, and the loco ran very well.  I glued the (plastic, but they made a fair impression of the prototype's polished aluminium with the borders and letters picked out in Humbrol silver) name and number plates on.  These kits were not intended to provide any sort of building challenge, but were a way of reducing prices by circumventing the Purchase Tax of those days, now replaced by VAT.  I had several Triang CKD mk1 coaches as well.  IIRC Trix did the Western, Britannia, and AL1 electric, and Triang did the Rovex Princess and EM2 electric. as well as their respective coaches.  Only Trix provided wagons in this form.

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, andyman7 said:

 

At last, someone making the point that ebay is an incredibly cost effective way to sell. It's unbelievable that so many moan about the costs when it is possible using offers to shift things to a worldwide audience at 5% commission.

The guy who collected these items has passed on so the value is nil to him; such a huge collection would take hundreds of hours to catalogue and sell by an experienced person so I am not surprised that the executors took the easier way out - and assuming it forms part of the estate why would anyone want to do all that work to give 40% to the taxman?

 

Using the 80% off fees is nearer 2.6% plus a small listing fee. I have no idea what the sellers premium is in this case, it usually us the same as the buyers premium. A figure of 35% has been quoted in this case. I am certain a deal could be done with an online seller with this volume for commission ? 

 

Firstly Cherry pick the best items and slowly drip feed the stock on to the market, lets face it some property takes years to realise a sale.

 

The extra tax payment is not on the whole amount as tax is liable on the proceeds of the auction. 60% so something is better than 100% of nothing

 

OK you need the time to sell but the benefit of doing it your self is massive, not only in increased prices but the saving in commission

 

But as you say, it depends on who is arranging the disposal of assets

[TheQ]

I wonder at the listing of the value, I'm betting some of that lot was bought for 2/6.

 I suspect the auctioneers inflated the values in the first place..

[hayfield]

24 minutes ago, TheQ said:

I wonder at the listing of the value, I'm betting some of that lot was bought for 2/6.

 I suspect the auctioneers inflated the values in the first place..

 

 

From my limited understanding with the exception of works of art the auctioneers list a guide price or rather an upper and lower estimate with quite a lot of difference between the two. Watching things like flog it these estimates can be widely inaccurate and no two professionals usually agree .

 

Looking at a selection of listings the paten is much the same, I assume they have probably discounted the RRP.

 

Interestingly as many if not more items failed to reach the lower estimate (on the first page) as lots that exceeded the upper estimate, most sales were around the lower estimate. As the bulk was at least above the lower estimate, it could be argued the valuations were correct. But in general I think the bulk was sold at wholesale prices to the trade, and with such a large amount available it must have a negative result on prices. The trade need to buy stock and have to pay more when stock is in short supply 

 

 

[phil gollin]

.

 

IF I had a large local model railway club I would be quite happy to leave my "collection" to them (for use or sale) but .....

 

.

[RFS]

53 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Interestingly as many if not more items failed to reach the lower estimate (on the first page) as lots that exceeded the upper estimate, most sales were around the lower estimate. 

 

The vast majority of the estimates were at the "auctioneer's favourite" of £80-£120, basically because I suspect they had not spent the time trying to be more accurate for items for which they have no experience, this auction house having never before managed a model railway sale. Whether any items had a reserve or not is not known, but cannot for legal reasons be above the lower estimate. 

[jjb1970]

21 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Maybe, but I doubt it will still be worth that in fifty years time.  I think there is a life cycle to collectable stuff.

 

Look what has happened to the once very popular hobby of stamp collecting.  Even rare and once valuable stamps are now almost worthless, mainly because there's nowhere near as many people collecting now.

I remember railwayana collectors started bidding silly money for BR totems (the old station nameboards).  The bottom fell out of that market a good many years ago and a lot of money was lost, although I understand the values have crept back up again.

And then there's the just plain silly - the tulip mania of the 17th century, the hopelessly uneconomic proposed routes of the Railway Mania in the 1840s or bitcoin as an "investment" - Elon Musk's Tesla Inc  lost $140m last year on that last year, but at least he can afford to.

 

Collecting hobbies go through boom and bust cycles. As with any speculative mentality focused on money the smart money goes in early and also tends to get out early. I've seen so many hobbies in which things went to ridiculous levels, completely divorced from reality only to crash to being almost worthless in monetary terms. What then tends to happen is these hobbies return to those in it for a love of whatever it is.

 

I collect HO brass models of North American and Asian prototypes, factory finished and painted. If you are patient and not bothered about being a completist it's amazing what bargains appear. I've bought beautiful brass models from the great Korean and Japanese brass producers which were hideously expensive new for prices not much more than typical OO RTR prices. I'm not bothered about future value, obviously if I fall on hard times it'd be nice to get something for them but it's not what attracts me to the models. 

 

As with any hobby, the secret to enjoying collecting is to do it for your own reasons and to do something you enjoy.

[jjb1970]

On 16/04/2023 at 04:49, westernviscount said:

Totally agree. Anyone who ever asks those types of questions, very much like "so explain to me how paint splatters is art?" or "how is this music?" have no interest in discussion. 

 

 

 

We were at school with my daughter on Saturday for an open day to help her think about her IGCSE options. My daughter asked her science teacher whether it would be better to do coordinated science or pure science, and her teacher (a typical no nonsense Singaporean lady) turned it around by asking whether it would be better for her to wear a red or a white tee-shirt? Pointing out that the answer depends on what she wants to do, so that only she can really make that decision. I think it similar with hobbies, if you enjoy something then that's all that really matters.

[Halvarras]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Pretty much.  Back in the day I had the 'Footplateman' Western; it could be assembled with a screwdriver and no glue was needed; I wouldn't have used the term 'construction kit', which suggests something you glue together and paint.  Assembly was straightforward, included lit headcode panel, and the loco ran very well.  I glued the (plastic, but they made a fair impression of the prototype's polished aluminium with the borders and letters picked out in Humbrol silver) name and number plates on.  These kits were not intended to provide any sort of building challenge, but were a way of reducing prices by circumventing the Purchase Tax of those days, now replaced by VAT.  I had several Triang CKD mk1 coaches as well.  IIRC Trix did the Western, Britannia, and AL1 electric, and Triang did the Rovex Princess and EM2 electric. as well as their respective coaches.  Only Trix provided wagons in this form.

 

I had the Western diesel in this form too - I mail-ordered one (as they weren't widely available, unlike you-know-who) but can't recall where from now, just after Christmas 1971 and I found it waiting for me when I got home from a trip to Penzance on New Year's Eve, which was memorable for seeing D6336 in the down sidings at Truro, one of the last four survivors all withdrawn the following day, goodbye Class 22. Being extremely familiar with Westerns I couldn't live with the very visible extra bogie sideframe reinforcements so cut them away, leaving the rest of the sideframe detail precariously attached only by the brake linkages! I had to therefore be very careful with it and managed to keep it intact; I also didn't fit the holed plastic wheel inserts, and the bogies looked far better as a result. It was later renamed D1010 Western Campaigner using etched plates and the Trix plastic D1004 Western Crusader plates sat around until late 1986 when I had the 'inspiration' to create 52004 in Inter-City livery using a Hornby model (which I restored a couple of years or so ago and posted pics to the 'Fictitious Liveries' thread, so the plates live on). As for the Trix model, it was joined by a couple of Liliput-produced versions in the mid-late 1970s but before I got to do anything with them the Hornby and Lima models were announced and although as you say these ran very well the dimensional issues saw them replaced.

Around 1970 I also bought a couple of Tri-ang CKD kits, a pair of maroon Mark 1 CKs (numbered 15917/8 using sticky labels from memory), and a blue Hymek. I also picked up an assembled second-hand green EM2 (sticky labels for 27002 'Aurora' and bolted-on trailing bogie being the clues) shortly after and back then had no problem running this alongside my Tri-ang AL1 under my Super-4 'click-fit' catenary!

[PMP]

On 15/04/2023 at 12:07, Farang said:

 

I wonder if a better price would have been achieved by selling to a dealer? Look through the Modeller and there are 20+ dealers wanting to buy collections. Some  advertising "top prices" paid. Has anyone experience of selling to dealers and the level of prices obtained?

Yes I have. It was an estate sale and the items were excellent quality RTR and a lot of the particular genre. I was approached as I knew a bit about the scale/subject. I sat down with the executor and went through the options. Helpfully they brought the collection together so we could cherry pick the premium products to sell separately from the core collection. The collection was boxed and catalogued and three buyers were approached to bid on them. First bids were low, unsurprisingly, and then subsequent negotiation of a further round of bids saw one drop out, and then a shoot out between the remaining two. All three were professional and the family took the sensible view that all the stuff was going in one hit, and that the buyer was running a business, and had overheads. The family didn’t have the time or experience to individually list, sell and ship the volume of equipment, let alone the head space in dealing with the bereavement.
With a bit of work I got the original offer uplifted by around 20%. It meant taking a professional approach to presenting to and dealing with the buyers. Collection and payment by the buyer was simple and efficient, and no hassle. They were sympathetic to the family and no pressure came from them.

 

So often you see and hear the dealers being criticised for paying too little, by people who have no idea about running a commercial outlet. So in my experience (x2), taking a professional approach when dealing with commercial buyers can be very worthwhile. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by PMP
Addition

[PaulRhB]

40 minutes ago, PMP said:

So often you see and hear the dealers being criticised for paying too little, by people who have no idea about running a commercial outlet. So in my experience (x2), taking a professional approach when dealing with commercial buyers can be very worthwhile. 

I had a similar experience dealing with a friends collection and approached a trader I knew who bought it all rather than cherry pick. It was painless and I’d had a long chat with his wife about perceived value vs actually getting that taking a stall to swap meets or going on eBay. Someone approached her and said I’d undersold it but fortunately as she had run their self employed business they were given short shrift as she understood selling better than us really and was just grateful to get rid of the hassle of having to deal with it and get a fair if not spectacular price. 
The family also understood and trusted us so always worth just sitting down and showing people the range of prices and how they actually sell.

 
I buy models to enjoy them, some I pay over the odds slightly if the source is reputable and I know it’s a rarer model, or to find in good condition, but I balance that against the bargains and reckon I do pretty well overall. That’s reflected in feedback on several items I’ve sold via eBay where I got really nice feedback for taking the time to photograph thoroughly on rare models and on one occasion the box too. People will pay good money if it’s well illustrated and described. 
 

I think the only secret is not to be desperate for the cash when you sell, patience vs chancers often sees sensible and occasionally very good prices achieved. 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by PaulRhB

[andyman7]

7 hours ago, TheQ said:

I wonder at the listing of the value, I'm betting some of that lot was bought for 2/6.

 I suspect the auctioneers inflated the values in the first place..

 

6 hours ago, hayfield said:

From my limited understanding with the exception of works of art the auctioneers list a guide price or rather an upper and lower estimate with quite a lot of difference between the two. Watching things like flog it these estimates can be widely inaccurate and no two professionals usually agree .

 

Looking at a selection of listings the paten is much the same, I assume they have probably discounted the RRP.

 

Interestingly as many if not more items failed to reach the lower estimate (on the first page) as lots that exceeded the upper estimate, most sales were around the lower estimate. As the bulk was at least above the lower estimate, it could be argued the valuations were correct. But in general I think the bulk was sold at wholesale prices to the trade, and with such a large amount available it must have a negative result on prices. The trade need to buy stock and have to pay more when stock is in short supply

 

5 hours ago, RFS said:

The vast majority of the estimates were at the "auctioneer's favourite" of £80-£120, basically because I suspect they had not spent the time trying to be more accurate for items for which they have no experience, this auction house having never before managed a model railway sale. Whether any items had a reserve or not is not known, but cannot for legal reasons be above the lower estimate. 

Yes, the estimates were typically non-specialist 'guesses' which as usual I totally ignored when working out what to bid. I left some bids 'on the book' and won two lots consisting of (in total) 46 DMU vehicles - a mixture of powered an unpowered vehicles, some RTR, some detailed/renumbered, some conversions. The total cost across both lots including commission was £455 plus it is costing £56 to have them shipped - that works out crudely £11.10 a vehicle. Since at least 19 of the vehicles are power cars I know that whatever the actual condition of what turns up I have got a fair deal for the lot, which provide me with a large and cost-effective pool for my own projects.
Assuming that Mitchells charged the sellers the standard 15% commission too, the sellers will get £297.50 of the £455 I have paid for the two lots excluding shipping. 
 

[hmrspaul]

13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

  IIRC Trix did the Western, Britannia, and AL1 electric, and Triang did the Rovex Princess and EM2 electric. as well as their respective coaches.  Only Trix provided wagons in this form.

IIIRC my  Standard 5 4-6-0 was also a CKD. Triang also did the Cowans small crane as CKD. 

 

Paul 

[sjp23480]

So much for the chap who was going to use his £20k collection to fund his retirement!

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, sjp23480 said:

So much for the chap who was going to use his £20k collection to fund his retirement!

Whoops 🫠 Instantly failed for many future collectors by taking them out of the box! The big money down the line is usually in sealed as new for mass produced toys. Very short production runs or oddball pre production errors can be collectible but on the whole it’s genuine limited editions not like Lima with a paper certificate that accrue significant value. 
That 31 may well increase, probably from mazak rot!

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, sjp23480 said:

So much for the chap who was going to use his £20k collection to fund his retirement!

 

 

£20,000 will get you nowhere in retirement !!!! 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

IIIRC my  Standard 5 4-6-0 was also a CKD. Triang also did the Cowans small crane as CKD. 

 

Paul 

I had an idea the Standard 5MT was in the Footplateman range, but my memory for such things is not reliable.  I certainly remember wanting this loco though, and a photo of one banking a freight hauled by a HD 8F with smoke fx and some superb weathering in MRC back in their mad photos/coloured pages phase.   There was always a money problem in those days though; I had a good paper round and not a bad disposable by the standards of the day, but as steam retreated away from the WR in general and Cardiff in particular, fares for the epic bashes of ‘66, 67, and pre-August ‘68 (I was actually in charge of Dduallt station shop on the final day, couldn’t face the last rites) had to be budgeted for, and this was the 60s; there were records to buy as well!

[hmrspaul]

7 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I had an idea the Standard 5MT was in the Footplateman range, 

I don't know what that means. All of the Trix models were available RTR and I may well be mistaken that the 5MT that I bought was originally a kit and not RTR. Easily checked I suppose by a look at the adverts in the magazines of the mid 1960s. 

 

Their wagon CKDs were a nuisance as they had a nylon underframe which was supposed to be held to the body by double sided tape, but the nylon tended to bow away from the body. I still have a few. The Pig Iron for example wasn't available from the other usual suspects - Triang, HD and Airfix. But the Trix had pinpoint axles on a completely plain disc wheel, Ran very well and I drilled almost suitable holes to represent the 3 holes in most disc wheels. 

 

Paul

Edited April 17, 2023 by hmrspaul

[The Johnster]

Oh yeah, you couldn’t get Trix stuff to sit still, it was phenomenally free-running. 

[TinTracks]

2 hours ago, sjp23480 said:

So much for the chap who was going to use his £20k collection to fund his retirement!

I lifted this from the newspaper article

''Such collectors’ items often come with gold-plated embellishments and tack, as well as certificates which list the model’s issue number and prove their authenticity.''

 Embellishments and ''tack''?  yes I know it's probably a typo but it made me chuckle. BTW some of the comments after this article are worth a couple of mins of your life reading especially the cyclist and the model enthusiast.

  Regards, Rich.

[melmerby]

57 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Their wagon CKDs were a nuisance as they had a nylon underframe which was supposed to be held to the body by double sided tape

That's different to the RTR ones.

Still go a couple of Speedlink(?) ones kicking around somewhere.

38 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Oh yeah, you couldn’t get Trix stuff to sit still, it was phenomenally free-running. 

Yes they were very free running. I also had some of the whisky wagons, sold on years ago as well as some Mk1 coaches I also had.

The coaches were odd as they were blue/grey but the bodies were maroon and unpainted on the inside. (and Trix's odd scale!)

Edited April 17, 2023 by melmerby

[andyman7]

3 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Whoops 🫠 Instantly failed for many future collectors by taking them out of the box! The big money down the line is usually in sealed as new for mass produced toys. Very short production runs or oddball pre production errors can be collectible but on the whole it’s genuine limited editions not like Lima with a paper certificate that accrue significant value. 
That 31 may well increase, probably from mazak rot!

In reality the future value for model trains is much more about fashion, supply and demand as opposed to whether the box has been opened. Plenty of mint boxed unopened 90s stuff has limited value, but certain desirable items do have a market regardless of whether they have been opened or not. The big killer is amateur or indifferently done 'detailing'; really good detailing can enhance value to the right market. This is very different to diecast toys and figures where the cult of perfect-sealed-on-unopened-card thrives.

 

If I were to make a prediction, it is that the huge glut of 50s/60s steam models will exceed demand in future years because the generations that remember them will have passed on; however, I suspect that certain items of 'modern image/privatisation' stock made by Hornby and Bachmann in the past 20 years could become quite sought after if they are not remade, because the children and youths of today will remember and want those items in 20 or 30 years time. My own era is BR Blue but since my son was little I have found myself acquiring models of the post-BR era trains we have ridden together as he has grown up. He is now a teenager and very into trains (yes, some youngsters are....!) and he is very happy both that we have these models and that I didn't let him break them when he was smaller! 

Edited April 17, 2023 by andyman7

[MyRule1]

Although the Op was about a collection of railway models the title is somewhat wider. The current position regarding books is worth considering.

 

A few years ago I was downsizing so had to dispose of a number of railway books In some cases the ebay bids (including postage) was higher than the full retail price that I pai.

 

Fast forward to today and due to a change in circumstances I have  large area for a library I am buying some of these titles again and I am paying less that I got when I sold them. Some Irwell book certainly come into this category  as do many books on WW2.

 

 Having spoken to a number of people in the second hand book trade and they say the same hing. Most people who want that type of book will already have it, and these books are coming onto the market either through downsizing or death and there is a lack of new customers entering that market. One of the larger players in the second book market says they are considering pulling out of the second hand business and sticking to new books where the margin is known.

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by MyRule1

[newbryford]

15 hours ago, sjp23480 said:

So much for the chap who was going to use his £20k collection to fund his retirement!

 

It is yellow though.....