Is it really worth as much as you bought it for?

[jjb1970]

A positive is it makes things much more accessible to people with an interest in whatever it is but limited funds. And that's no bad thing, talking about prices of things like models and hobbies is very much a two sided coin. In some ways I'd much rather see book values remain low enough so that those who want to read them and use them as reference sources can get them rather than sitting on a shelf meaning no more than the £ value. And I say that as someone who has spent a lot on books. 

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

A positive is it makes things much more accessible to people with an interest in whatever it is but limited funds. And that's no bad thing, talking about prices of things like models and hobbies is very much a two sided coin. In some ways I'd much rather see book values remain low enough so that those who want to read them and use them as reference sources can get them rather than sitting on a shelf meaning no more than the £ value. And I say that as someone who has spent a lot on books. 

I don't think the price of used books is the issue. More the fact that you can't give them away and they end up in the recycling. Obviously, books are heavy to post and are likely to cost more to post, than the proceeds. Magazines are worse.

 

Yes, I have a significant library, which isn't going anywhere!

[melmoth]

3 hours ago, MyRule1 said:

Although the Op was about a collection of railway models the title is somewhat wider. The current position regarding books is worth considering.

 

A few years ago I was downsizing so had to dispose of a number of railway books In some cases the ebay bids (including postage) was higher than the full retail price that I pai.

 

Fast forward to today and due to a change in circumstances I have  large area for a library I am buying some of these titles again and I am paying less that I got when I sold them. Some Irwell book certainly come into this category  as do many books on WW2.

 

 Having spoken to a number of people in the second hand book trade and they say the same hing. Most people who want that type of book will already have it, and these books are coming onto the market either through downsizing or death and there is a lack of new customers entering that market. One of the larger players in the second book market says they are considering pulling out of the second hand business and sticking to new books where the margin is known.

 

 

As a secondhand bookseller* there are certainly areas where prices have fallen, but on the other hand there are books that are more expensive secondhand now than they were new, say, ten years ago. I'm not sure there is a hard and fast rule. Secondhand books are, for the most part, still incredibly good value for money.

 

I'm intrigued by the line 'One of the larger players in the second book market says they are considering pulling out of the second hand business and sticking to new books where the margin is known' (my emphasis). Surely any business, secondhand or otherwise, knows what it paid for an item and what it is selling the item for. To some extent this strikes me as being a non-sequitur.

 

*And proud stockist of Wild Swan titles

[Steamport Southport]

41 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

I don't think the price of used books is the issue. More the fact that you can't give them away and they end up in the recycling. Obviously, books are heavy to post and are likely to cost more to post, than the proceeds. Magazines are worse.

 

Yes, I have a significant library, which isn't going anywhere!

 

I don't know why people don't give them to a local charity shop rather than putting them in the recycling? Many will even pick up from your home.

Charity shops then sell the unsold ones by weight* to organisations such as World Of Books who then sort out the  good stuff whilst pulping the rubbish.

 

Ever thought where WOB and the like get millions of books from? Most of them really good quality. From charity shops.

 

 

*They get something like 50p a kilo for them. Not much but it does add up when you see the amount of books we get. We tend to fill about twenty sacks a week. Unfortunately most of it is novels, "chick lit" and celebrity books rather than LNER Wagons.

 

 

Jason

[hayfield]

I have just looked at another auction site and once you look at all the fees and charges the buyer pays 30% on the winning bid price, plus I guess the commercial rate for post and packing might be in the region of £20

 

This might look reasonable at first glance, but adding up everything it seems very expensive

 

£80 to £120 seems a consistent estimate for a pair or a trio lot of locos

 

£80 translates to £124 and £120 translates to £176 once all fees and postage is taken into consideration

 

If you divide these amounts by two or three then the cost per loco is a bit eye watering as the condition is unknown and untested,

 

In person you stand a much better chance as you can see the lots condition and save on P&P, unless you are a trader do you want two or 3 identical locos ?

[sjp23480]

6 minutes ago, hayfield said:

I have just looked at another auction site and once you look at all the fees and charges the buyer pays 30% on the winning bid price, plus I guess the commercial rate for post and packing might be in the region of £20

 

This might look reasonable at first glance, but adding up everything it seems very expensive

 

£80 to £120 seems a consistent estimate for a pair or a trio lot of locos

 

£80 translates to £124 and £120 translates to £176 once all fees and postage is taken into consideration

 

If you divide these amounts by two or three then the cost per loco is a bit eye watering as the condition is unknown and untested,

 

In person you stand a much better chance as you can see the lots condition and save on P&P, unless you are a trader do you want two or 3 identical locos ?

@hayfield like any auction, there are unloved bargains to be had from time to time. 

 

I picked up a DJH Standard class 3 2-6-2T for <£70 including postage on TheSaleroom.com.  Partially started, 80% of the parts loose in the box, no guarantee of completeness and a poor picture.  Luckily (unusual for me), it was complete, with wheels, motor and gearbox and a small selection of the previous owners tools that were thrown in for good measure (jeweller's screwdrivers and needle files).

 

Mine was the only bid at the starting price.  I guess it was my lucky day.

 

In the case of this auction, it was clearly publicised and attracted more bidders - which is a good thing for the seller and is (i suggest) the role of the auction house to try to realise as much money as possible.

 

By contrast, another concurrent auction had one lot consisting two unstarted DJH WD kits (a 2-8-0 and a 2-10-0).  Complete kits with wheels.  They went went for £100 (for both).  So probably £150 when you add buyers premium and p&p.  I believe both kits have now appeared on ebay.  So it will be interesting to see how much they realise:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314526877046?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=UVfbf5dpTV-&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=saSnTyIOQLy&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314526877046?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=UVfbf5dpTV-&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=saSnTyIOQLy&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

Steve

 

 

[hayfield]

 

I have just bought a Cotswold GWR  42/52/72xx, unbuilt and without instructions, needs wheels gears and motor but inc postage £28, Looking at a forthcoming auction estimates start much higher then there is commission and packaging to add, I guess bidding starts lower and you can grab a bargain if you see something others have missed, and now DJH do supply parts which gives you a bit more peace of mind

 

Out of interest how much was P&P please 

[Wheatley]

On 18/04/2023 at 12:47, melmoth said:

 

As a secondhand bookseller* there are certainly areas where prices have fallen, but on the other hand there are books that are more expensive secondhand now than they were new, say, ten years ago. I'm not sure there is a hard and fast rule. Secondhand books are, for the most part, still incredibly good value for money.

 

As a consumer, agreed. The ones everyone has got (anything from a 1980s/90s 'Book Club' for example) will be cheap as chips, but Volume 1 of "LMS Carriages" by Essery and Jenkinson cost me £60 in Barter Books a few years ago. I bought volumes 2 and 3 new for less than that altogether but as my strategy of dropping on a copy of volume 1 in a charity shop who didn't really know what they'd got hadn't worked in the intervening 25 years, I coughed up.   

 

Prior to that one of the set books for the Natural History part of my degree was a very comprehensive coffee table book from one of the book clubs about British wildlife, primarily because the uni knew they were available in any second hand bookshop for a couple of quid. 

 

On the subject of charity shops, Oxfam in particular are pretty switched on about the market value of their second hand books. 

[melmoth]

3 hours ago, Wheatley said:

On the subject of charity shops, Oxfam in particular are pretty switched on about the market value of their second hand books. 

 

Oxfam these days effectively runs a chain of secondhand bookshops, but with the benefit of charitable status when it comes to rates, and far lower staffing and stock costs than anyone else in the trade. I was surprised a couple of years back, however, to learn from one of our local auctioneers that the manager of the Oxfam store in town was a regular purchaser of books at auction for resale at Oxfam, and therefore appeared to have a budget for actively buying stock, rather than simply relying on donations. If you're doing that (which obviously is what all secondhand booksellers do to a greater or lesser extent), you really do need to have an idea of the market value of what you're acquiring.

[Enterprisingwestern]

47 minutes ago, melmoth said:

 

Oxfam these days effectively runs a chain of secondhand bookshops, but with the benefit of charitable status when it comes to rates, and far lower staffing and stock costs than anyone else in the trade. I was surprised a couple of years back, however, to learn from one of our local auctioneers that the manager of the Oxfam store in town was a regular purchaser of books at auction for resale at Oxfam, and therefore appeared to have a budget for actively buying stock, rather than simply relying on donations. If you're doing that (which obviously is what all secondhand booksellers do to a greater or lesser extent), you really do need to have an idea of the market value of what you're acquiring.

 

But why do starving people in Africa read UK railway books, or am I misunderstanding this?

 

Mike

[sjp23480]

8 hours ago, hayfield said:

Out of interest how much was P&P please 

I don't recall exactly, but around £15 I believe. 

Steve

[sjp23480]

1 hour ago, melmoth said:

 

Oxfam these days effectively runs a chain of secondhand bookshops, but with the benefit of charitable status when it comes to rates, and far lower staffing and stock costs than anyone else in the trade. I was surprised a couple of years back, however, to learn from one of our local auctioneers that the manager of the Oxfam store in town was a regular purchaser of books at auction for resale at Oxfam, and therefore appeared to have a budget for actively buying stock, rather than simply relying on donations. If you're doing that (which obviously is what all secondhand booksellers do to a greater or lesser extent), you really do need to have an idea of the market value of what you're acquiring.

Most national charities' shops are commercially run.

 

As I understand it, all donations are graded:

 

1. Items with no/negligible value are sold to dealers by weight for recycling: books for pulp, clothes for rags, etc.....

 

2. Items with any potential value and siphoned off and marketed to maximise their value. I believe some charities run eBay shops to do this.

 

3. Everything in between is sold via the shops.  If it remains unsold for a few weeks is then regraded as 1 and sold off for recycling

 

Whilst some sortation still happens at the point of donation, so some things slip through.  The larger charities have sortation centres so you are much less likely to find "valuable" bargains. 

 

I suspect the smaller, local charities which are less commercial are a more likely source of bargains?

 

Steve

 

 

 

[RFS]

9 hours ago, hayfield said:

Out of interest how much was P&P please 

 

I bought 3 lots recently from UK Toy Auctions - 2 pairs of locos and a box of wagons. Cost for sending these was £15. I've seen quotes from other auction houses which charge £15-20 for the first lot, and £1 per lot thereafter. However, some auction houses don't have an in-house service and you are expected to make your own arrangements. I avoid these unless they're local to me. 

 

Best place to start is The-Saleroom website. This links to most auction houses, and if you view items through their website there's a shipping information for each item. You can also use their search faciliuty to search all  forthcoming auctions. For example, if you search on "Hornby" you will quickly see where there are model railway auctions. 

[Bernard Lamb]

12 hours ago, sjp23480 said:

 

 

I suspect the smaller, local charities which are less commercial are a more likely source of bargains?

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed they are, I know one where picture frames are £2 each. Irrespective of size or any picture in them. I have bought frames that would have cost over £30 new, The main stream charity shops sell them as pictures at a much higher price.

Bernard

[Bernard Lamb]

On 19/04/2023 at 09:41, sjp23480 said:

@hayfield like any auction, there are unloved bargains to be had from time to time. 

 

I picked up a DJH Standard class 3 2-6-2T for <£70 including postage on TheSaleroom.com.  Partially started, 80% of the parts loose in the box, no guarantee of completeness and a poor picture.  Luckily (unusual for me), it was complete, with wheels, motor and gearbox and a small selection of the previous owners tools that were thrown in for good measure (jeweller's screwdrivers and needle files).

 

Mine was the only bid at the starting price.  I guess it was my lucky day.

 

In the case of this auction, it was clearly publicised and attracted more bidders - which is a good thing for the seller and is (i suggest) the role of the auction house to try to realise as much money as possible.

 

By contrast, another concurrent auction had one lot consisting two unstarted DJH WD kits (a 2-8-0 and a 2-10-0).  Complete kits with wheels.  They went went for £100 (for both).  So probably £150 when you add buyers premium and p&p.  I believe both kits have now appeared on ebay.  So it will be interesting to see how much they realise:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314526877046?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=UVfbf5dpTV-&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=saSnTyIOQLy&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314526877046?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=UVfbf5dpTV-&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=saSnTyIOQLy&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

Steve

 

 

He seems to have made a good buy.

Still a few days to go and there are bids north of £200.

Bernard

[MyRule1]

Interesting take on value of models:

 

Some days ago some clickbait appeared on my MS-Edge home page with a story about "how a model tank" had raised £20k at auction.

 

Today the BBC ran an update on the story saying it cost him £34k to make, excluding his time.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-essex-65383978

 

 

 

[kevinlms]

But it's something unique and with a very limited number of people prepared to buy.

 

What the owner doesn't mention, is how many hours of pleasure and undoubtably torture, did it give him to build such a model? Priceless.

[sjp23480]

On 19/04/2023 at 09:41, sjp23480 said:

@hayfield like any auction, there are unloved bargains to be had from time to time. 

 

I picked up a DJH Standard class 3 2-6-2T for <£70 including postage on TheSaleroom.com.  Partially started, 80% of the parts loose in the box, no guarantee of completeness and a poor picture.  Luckily (unusual for me), it was complete, with wheels, motor and gearbox and a small selection of the previous owners tools that were thrown in for good measure (jeweller's screwdrivers and needle files).

 

Mine was the only bid at the starting price.  I guess it was my lucky day.

 

In the case of this auction, it was clearly publicised and attracted more bidders - which is a good thing for the seller and is (i suggest) the role of the auction house to try to realise as much money as possible.

 

By contrast, another concurrent auction had one lot consisting two unstarted DJH WD kits (a 2-8-0 and a 2-10-0).  Complete kits with wheels.  They went went for £100 (for both).  So probably £150 when you add buyers premium and p&p.  I believe both kits have now appeared on ebay.  So it will be interesting to see how much they realise:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314526877046?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=UVfbf5dpTV-&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=saSnTyIOQLy&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314526877046?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=UVfbf5dpTV-&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=saSnTyIOQLy&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

Steve

 

 

So, these two kits were sold this evening.  

 

The WD 2-8-0 (with wheels and motor) went for £82.51 plus P&P.  Someone got a bargain!

 

The WD 2-10-0 (also with wheels) went for £213.88 plus P&P.  These kits have always been more popular than the 2-8-0.

 

So, for an estimated outlay of ~£150, they got a return of ~£296, less 10% ebay/paypal fees so ~£267.

 

So a £117 profit or 78% margin on the sale of the two items.  

 

Steve

[Enterprisingwestern]

8 minutes ago, sjp23480 said:

So, these two kits were sold this evening.  

 

The WD 2-8-0 (with wheels and motor) went for £82.51 plus P&P.  Someone got a bargain!

 

The WD 2-10-0 (also with wheels) went for £213.88 plus P&P.  These kits have always been more popular than the 2-8-0.

 

So, for an estimated outlay of ~£150, they got a return of ~£296, less 10% ebay/paypal fees so ~£267.

 

So a £117 profit or 78% margin on the sale of the two items.  

 

Steve

 

Wow, you is gud at maffs.

 

Mike.

[sjp23480]

9 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Wow, you is gud at maffs.

 

Mike.

Double furst from the univursity of liff

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, sjp23480 said:

So, these two kits were sold this evening.  

 

The WD 2-8-0 (with wheels and motor) went for £82.51 plus P&P.  Someone got a bargain!

 

The WD 2-10-0 (also with wheels) went for £213.88 plus P&P.  These kits have always been more popular than the 2-8-0.

 

So, for an estimated outlay of ~£150, they got a return of ~£296, less 10% ebay/paypal fees so ~£267.

 

So a £117 profit or 78% margin on the sale of the two items.  

 

Steve

 

 

Unless you were there in person and able to check what was on offer this would have been a high risk purchase, £100 + 35% buyers premium, plus post and packing at commercial rates would exceed £150

As for selling fees 13% unless either he is a business or it was a promotional week which it was not

 

As you say a good investment, but if bought unseen a very high risk, earning a higher return, having said this being a DJH kit the risk could be less than other makes

 

But would a similar lot with two different locos fetch a similar amount, I doubt it!! very few s/h DJH kits would sell at £200+, but would probably fetch a similar amount when buying. But it was a great spot  

[sjp23480]

15 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Unless you were there in person and able to check what was on offer this would have been a high risk purchase, £100 + 35% buyers premium, plus post and packing at commercial rates would exceed £150

As for selling fees 13% unless either he is a business or it was a promotional week which it was not

 

As you say a good investment, but if bought unseen a very high risk, earning a higher return, having said this being a DJH kit the risk could be less than other makes

 

But would a similar lot with two different locos fetch a similar amount, I doubt it!! very few s/h DJH kits would sell at £200+, but would probably fetch a similar amount when buying. But it was a great spot  

Hence why dealers pay so little for collections.  

 

If this was your only source of income the volume of transactions needed to make a decent living is frightening. 

 

 

[hayfield]

16 minutes ago, sjp23480 said:

Hence why dealers pay so little for collections.  

 

If this was your only source of income the volume of transactions needed to make a decent living is frightening. 

 

 

 

I have 3 saved sellers who I keep track of, two seem to be full time and one part time, all seem to buy collections and not only start their lots at realistic prices but also accurately describe their lots. It must be hard work selling items in volume. As you correctly say they must buy items cheaply.

[Enterprisingwestern]

3 hours ago, sjp23480 said:

Hence why dealers pay so little for collections.  

 

If this was your only source of income the volume of transactions needed to make a decent living is frightening. 

 

 

 

You could add niche American cars as a top up!

 

Mike.