Precision Paints - Ex-Kirk Coach Kits in 4mm scale

[Pint of Adnams]

In addition to the Ex-Kirk range of SR Maunsell stock introduced about 4 years ago, Chris Stapleton (Mr Precision) is now turning out batches of the 'Ex-Kirk' LNER coaches, using the moulds that he now has, but still has to obtain a substantial number of moulds to complete the transfer. He'll not use any moulds that are not in very good condition so it will be a gradual re-introduction of the range and, having seen them on display, I can confirm that they look very tasty.

 

Keep up-to-date here: Phoenix Precision Ex-Kirk LNER Coach Kits and H&A Models Ex-Kirk LNER Coach Kits

[Mallard60022]

They make useful Carcases for Comet (and other) LNER Brass sides.

Phil

[Nile]

Fresh from the moulds:

The Red Panda kits in the photo are also being produced by Phoenix .

Edited May 21, 2023 by Nile
extra info

[Bucoops]

The day many thought would never come (me included).

 

[NZRedBaron]

So, I've heard that Ian Kirk kits are a bit.... iffy in the eyes of the rivet-counters; but even so, are they good enough for the average punter?

Edited May 20, 2023 by NZRedBaron

[Bucoops]

They're a very good starting point - and you can make them as intended and have reasonable representations, or put some extra effort in and make them really shine.

 

Window reveal depth, roof profile and underframe detail are some of the most obvious areas that could be improved. But if the whole rake is from the same stable then it's much less obvious. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Bucoops

[NZRedBaron]

Sounds feasible to me then; and by the looks of it the 51-footer luggage van (full brake) sounds like a useful van to have for any service...

[micklner]

They are kits from 50 plus years ago.

£30 for the kit and at least the same amaount again to have all the extra add ons mentioned above. You will still have a poor fitting roof and heavy beading and thick sides.

 

I have just started on my first Isinglass Models 3d printed version of a LNER Coach, roughly the same price, and miles better all round (so far).

[Johan DC]

40 minutes ago, micklner said:

They are kits from 50 plus years ago.

£30 for the kit and at least the same amaount again to have all the extra add ons mentioned above. You will still have a poor fitting roof and heavy beading and thick sides.

 

I have just started on my first Isinglass Models 3d printed version of a LNER Coach, roughly the same price, and miles better all round (so far).

I also recently started with some Isinglass coaches. And they are indeed great, but for about £40 you only have the basics, so to make a whole rake you'll be looking at about £700+, and have to do some scratchbuilding as well. Further, you'll have to shop around at Dart, Wizzard, H&A... 

The advantage in the Kirk ones are (almost) complete sets. So you can make a decent rake, for a reasonable price, with not too much effort. 

But indeed, Quality wise, the Isinglass sets are indeed way ahead, and I plan to make more of them. 

 

[micklner]

56 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

I also recently started with some Isinglass coaches. And they are indeed great, but for about £40 you only have the basics, so to make a whole rake you'll be looking at about £700+, and have to do some scratchbuilding as well. Further, you'll have to shop around at Dart, Wizzard, H&A... 

The advantage in the Kirk ones are (almost) complete sets. So you can make a decent rake, for a reasonable price, with not too much effort. 

But indeed, Quality wise, the Isinglass sets are indeed way ahead, and I plan to make more of them. 

 

Kirk as I have already said, if you want a decent model requires complete underframe fittings and Bogies (MJT) at a minimum, so far from cheap as you have just said.

I have no idea what kind/size of any rake you refer, too to compare the prices.

[Johan DC]

On 21/05/2023 at 10:55, micklner said:

Kirk as I have already said, if you want a decent model requires complete underframe fittings and Bogies (MJT) at a minimum, so far from cheap as you have just said.

I have no idea what kind/size of any rake you refer, too to compare the prices.

I ment a coach of ten. I don't dispute the superiority of the Isinglass sets, only the 'roughly the same price'.  

Out of interest, what is wrong with the Kirk bogies? 

[micklner]

The Kirk kits are just being re released at £30 a kit ,10 at £300 without any detail adds ons , not cheap. Isinglass are about £38 plus again detail parts addons. I am not a big fan of the Isinglass Bogies as again they are zero weight . MJT Bogies are whitemetal and brass, much better running and again detail.

 

Kirk bogies are as basic as you can get, zero weight, very poor detail. From memory I think I had to widen them to allow  the wheels to run freely as the mouldings were too narrow to allow free running . That was 20 plus years ago. No idea if the moulds have been improved since. Mine were sold off years ago. Hornby get slated re the sides and the lack of tumblehome (a 1mm curve missing). I happily ignore that as vastly superior in all other departments.

 

The only photo I could find on a search for Kirk Bogies is below, which is a poor one.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/655810/ian_kirk_kits_bk1_lner_coach_bogie_kit/stockdetail

[iak]

My namesakes kits did benefit from Colin Ashby refreshing the tooling when he had them.

They will create half decent models with care, detailing and patience - the choice is yours as the builder.

They also can be bashed, if so minded, into other esoteric stock. Steve Banks created models of early LNER non corridor stock which used auld GCR underframes, using the various Kirk sides.

Think of them as another means to an end, just balance what the cost is to what you want...

Mind, the Isinglass kits are good and getting better as is all of the 3D stuff.

Like I say the choice is yours.

[Steamport Southport]

8 hours ago, micklner said:

The Kirk kits are just being re released at £30 a kit ,10 at £300 without any detail adds ons , not cheap. Isinglass are about £38 plus again detail parts addons. I am not a big fan of the Isinglass Bogies as again they are zero weight . MJT Bogies are whitemetal and brass, much better running and again detail.

 

Kirk bogies are as basic as you can get, zero weight, very poor detail. From memory I think I had to widen them to allow  the wheels to run freely as the mouldings were too narrow to allow free running . That was 20 plus years ago. No idea if the moulds have been improved since. Mine were sold off years ago. Hornby get slated re the sides and the lack of tumblehome (a 1mm curve missing). I happily ignore that as vastly superior in all other departments.

 

The only photo I could find on a search for Kirk Bogies is below, which is a poor one.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/655810/ian_kirk_kits_bk1_lner_coach_bogie_kit/stockdetail

 

Might be worth considering that the Kirk kits did get re done a few times.

 

My first ones were just a bit few parts that need gluing together. Virtually the sides. The Southern stuff was outstanding and nothing was even close until Hornby made theirs. It was expected that you were going add to them.

 

 

BTW I looked at the builds of the Isinglass models in the magazines and wasn't impressed. I do read them. 

 

Another knocking thread?

 

Can't we just be glad they are back rather than being elistist?

 

 

Jason

[Human8984]

On 22/05/2023 at 22:21, Steamport Southport said:

Can't we just be glad they are back rather than being elistist?

 

I Agree. For along time, these kits were lost in the abyss that was Coopercraft. 'Basic kits'  and 'Take alot of work to get decent' is true of alot of kits, not just kirk ones. Peco and Parkside are examples of that

[JaymzHatstand]

20 minutes ago, Human8984 said:

I Agree. For along time, these kits were lost in the abyss that was Coopercraft. 'Basic kits'  and 'Take alot of work to get decent' is true of alot of kits, not just kirk ones. Peco and Parkside are examples of that

 

And to some of us, that's part of the charm, and even where we cut our teeth with detailing and going the extra 21,120mm!

 

As has been mentioned, the Kirk kits do have a number of inaccuracies in general shape, but in a rake of them, they certainly look the part, and some types not available elsewhere are in the range (or certainly were). I've got a few that could do with a couple more vehicles to pad them out, so I'll probably end up adding a few to my fleet!

 

Cheers

 

J

[Downer]

39 minutes ago, Human8984 said:

I Agree. For along time, these kits were lost in the abyss that was Coopercraft. 'Basic kits'  and 'Take alot of work to get decent' is true of alot of kits, not just kirk ones. Peco and Parkside are examples of that

I think that’s a rather harsh judgement on the Parkside kits produced over the last ten years.

[Johan DC]

Do the Kirk 2.0 also come with turned brass buffers and bearings, and wheels? 

[Mallard60022]

3 hours ago, Human8984 said:

I Agree. For along time, these kits were lost in the abyss that was Coopercraft. 'Basic kits'  and 'Take alot of work to get decent' is true of alot of kits, not just kirk ones. Peco and Parkside are examples of that

 

Apart from one Parkside (Now Peco) I remember, all the dozens of others I have made over the years and those I still have to make, have been superb quality and dead easy to make look top notch. The only thing I tend to do if ICBA, is to use Dave Frank's Buffers. Maybe your 'methodology' needs a bit of attention?

P 

[Pint of Adnams]

23 hours ago, Johan DC said:

Do the Kirk 2.0 also come with turned brass buffers and bearings, and wheels? 

Perhaps Nile will confirm or deny, but wheels in particular were always sensibly left to the choice of the customer, while buffers were not included. Ian always used to deal in the plastic parts but not the brass, and still does wrt the 7mm scale parts. One practical reason for the absence of buffers is that the LNER changed types of buffer for both the vestibuled (gangwayed) - oval to clipped-top - and non-vestibuled (non-gangwayed) - slender buffer stock to Spencer Moulton stepped buffer stock - coaching stock in the early1930s.

[Johan DC]

11 minutes ago, Pint of Adnams said:

... but wheels in particular were always sensibly left to the choice of the customer, while buffers were not included.

Out of interest, and to improve my teak painting skills, I bought a couple of second hand Gresley 61'6 coaches. They came with wheels, and turned brass buffers. It also mentioned these in the instruction, telling that the top should be clipped by the modeller.

No idea how old the sets are. I payed £15 at Hattons. 

[Pint of Adnams]

9 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

Out of interest, and to improve my teak painting skills, I bought a couple of second hand Gresley 61'6 coaches. They came with wheels, and turned brass buffers. It also mentioned these in the instruction, telling that the top should be clipped by the modeller.

No idea how old the sets are. I payed £15 at Hattons. 

That could well be so. The last 4mm scale kits I bought I found in the basement of the old W&H shop in New Cavendish Street not long before they closed in the 1990s.

[stewartingram]

I've built quite a few Kirk Gresleys in my time, I started when they first appeared and built them for many years. Every single on I had came with metal wheels and brass buffers.

[MikeTrice]

Some earlier posters have commented on the incorrect roof profile where the ex-Kirk 61'6" Gresley's are concerned. To me this has always made them stand out a mile and I can spot one in an instant.

 

In the past I have successfully cross kitted Kirk sides with an MJT roof and cast ends. One thing I have never tried, until now, is the obvious one of modifying the Kirk mouldings themselves.

 

So as a starting point here is a Kirk end against a scaled GA drawing:

 

Note how much shorter this is which results in a too short corridor connector and when viewed from the side too big a curve to the roof.

 

The first step was to build up the height of the end with styrene. I used Evergreen .080" x .156":

 

The addition was then filed back to the correct shape including at this point the end beading:

 

Now I have a confession to make. I should have included in the above modification the cornice that edges the roof. I managed to find one single Kirk end and some pre-used sides that I could just about cobble together to prove if this approach works, however I decided at this point ot print out using my FDM printer some replacement ends rather than use my last Kirk original.

 

The carriage body was then assembled after filing back the moulding draft along the top edge, adding a piece of 20thou styrene to restore the height of the side and cutting back the supplied roof to fit behind the extended ends:

 

 

 

The joint between the cut back supplied roof and extended ends was then filled with Milliput and sanded smooth. The transformation is obvious and the side profile is much improved in the process:

 

 

 

Yes I cheated by using a new coach end, however I have proved that it is perfectly viable to modify the supplied Kirk mouldings to correct the most glaring error in the kits.

 

Hopefully one day the new owners might be in a position to retool the roofs and ends to make this unnecessary.

[cctransuk]

24 minutes ago, MikeTrice said:

Hopefully one day the new owners might be in a position to retool the roofs and ends to make this unnecessary.

 

In the meantime, had you thought of marketing the 3D printed ends? (Or resin-cast ends from the 3D printed master)?

 

CJI