EFE Rail Newton Chambers car carriers

[Southernman46]

Anyway back to the wagons ....................................................

 

Have seen a photo on t'internet (Andy Gibbs site ?) of at least 6 of these northbound through Dawlish in 1971 behind a 47 on 1E01 which was the Newquay (?) - Newcastle Motorail so their scope of operation also included that which doesn't require much of Rule 1 application to put them almost anywhere - so 3 Heljan and 2 EFE gives 5 individual vehicles ................................... 👍

[jjb1970]

It's a bit of a niche prototype but an interesting one and looks very nicely done. The price is decent in the current market too. 

[No Decorum]

14 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

It's because it's not produced by Kader so it's not actually a Bachmann product.

That is interesting. It explains my mystification at an apparently Bachmann product under the EFE brand. It is also, so far as I am aware, the first totally new tooling produced by EFE. I wonder if it’s a hint of things to come. Thanks for the information, Andy.

[John M Upton]

Perhaps a shrink down to N scale could be considered? I would take a couple assuming they are not too overpriced.

[Littlethorpe]

11 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Perhaps a shrink down to N scale could be considered? I would take a couple assuming they are not too overpriced.

Already done...

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/blogs/news/n-gauge-newton-chambers-car-transporters

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

I'm waiting for someone to suggest Hornby have one planned as well as a spoiler.  I know it's usually me making that comment but I'll refrain from making it this time.

Oh bu**er.  Ban 'ommer incoming.

I do keep wondering that especially as these were introdiced on the ECML and did run behind Gresley pacifics.  So obviously it would be a Hornby model (wouldn't it?).

 

Maybe those days have gone at Hornby?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I do keep wondering that especially as these were introdiced on the ECML and did run behind Gresley pacifics.  So obviously it would be a Hornby model (wouldn't it?).

 

Maybe those days have gone at Hornby?

 

But there'd be no Pullmans in the formation...

[John M Upton]

3 hours ago, Littlethorpe said:

Already done...

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/blogs/news/n-gauge-newton-chambers-car-transporters

 

Thanks, how on Earth this one passed me by I will never know.  It is a triple pack though and I only really have room for two but I shall see.

[Halvarras]

10 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

Anyway back to the wagons ....................................................

 

Have seen a photo on t'internet (Andy Gibbs site ?) of at least 6 of these northbound through Dawlish in 1971 behind a 47 on 1E01 which was the Newquay (?) - Newcastle Motorail so their scope of operation also included that which doesn't require much of Rule 1 application to put them almost anywhere - so 3 Heljan and 2 EFE gives 5 individual vehicles ................................... 👍

 

They almost certainly started out from just around the corner, at Newton Abbot. I'm not aware of any Motorail services to/from Newquay, St Austell was the main Cornish terminal and AFAIK these vehicles were never used to that location.

[phil-b259]

On 17/06/2023 at 11:45, James Grundy said:

Just a spot of good old fashioned communication.

 

 

WHICH IS ILLEGAL!

 

The Competition and Markets Authority do not have an exemption for model railway manufacturers when it comes to what they see as 'anti-competitive activity' in the market place and any firm found guilty of it will be subjected to large fines.

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/cartels-price-fixing/types-of-anticompetitive-activity

 

 

Saying to your stakeholders / shareholders ' we flushed several millions of pounds down the drain just so railway modellers don'gt get duplication isn't going to wash with the finance guys - far better to take a hit in terms of lower sales (compared to where one manufacturer has a monopoly on a particular vehicles.

Edited June 18, 2023 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

On 17/06/2023 at 13:17, brushman47544 said:

Didn’t Chris Leigh comment on here a few years ago about the practice across the channel? The manufacturers talked to the various national modelling groups about future plans and there was some sharing of information about potential models already being worked on elsewhere, meaning some duplication could be avoided. But that does have to work on trust - manufacturers wouldn’t simply block a model by saying they were producing it when they hadn’t actually started working on it.

 

Sorry that sort of action would fall squarely under 'anti-competitive activity' by the Competition & Markets Authority!

 

Given the end result of any investigation is likley to be big fines if communication does take place it will be on a totally unofficial personal level and strictly verbal type - plus even then it has to be carefully done.

[phil-b259]

On 17/06/2023 at 12:10, James Grundy said:

There is a significant difference between 'Don't model this prototype, this one's ours, you can have that one' and 'Just so you know, we're intending to develop this prototype'.

 

 

Not according to the competition and Markets Authority there isn't!

 

If any communication is being made about future products then either it has to be publicly announced to customers and competitors alike or kept as an internal secret within the group (the later being to cater for an international parent with several subdivisions one of which might have a legitimate interest in what another division was preparing to make).

[Southernman46]

Could we divert all the boring lawyer speak to somewhere else - this thread is about some more great car carrying wagon models.

[Ravenser]

On 17/06/2023 at 10:24, nightstar.train said:

It’s a great shame that Bachmann and Heljan have both developed the same model at the same time. Is the market for these large enough to sustain two models? Or will we see a lot of both in the bargain bins? Bachmann/EFE do have the advantage I feel. For once they’re cheaper than the rival, and are producing the coaches singly, whereas with Heljan you have to buy a 3 pack. 

 

These are quite a niche prototype and it is difficult to see how the market can be large enough for both manufacturers to recover the cost of their project, never mind make a profit. For Bachmann this is less of an issue - as it is an EFE model the tooling and development cost do not lie with them.

 

It all reinforces my sense that 4mm is nearly mined out in terms of new subjects with decent commercial prospects.  The major manufacturers are working 2-3 years ahead, so they may well already be working on a fair few of the subjects we think are still "available" . If all you can do with  your tooling investment is duplicate something that already exists as a decent modern model from someone else, then it gets a bit marginal. "Raising the bar" significantly  is getting difficult, and the rising cost of production in an environment where real incomes are static or declining mans that "taking it to the next level" starts to get prohibitively expensive. If these end up in the bargain bin, no doubt a few modellers will cash in: but it's hard to see that as a way forward for the RTR business.

 

I notice from another post that Sonic have announced these in N, and it is an obvious question whether they might be the source of this EFE model

[D9020 Nimbus]

9 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

I notice from another post that Sonic have announced these in N, and it is an obvious question whether they might be the source of this EFE model

Or whether they're planning their own OO version, as with the ferry vans…

[adb968008]

24 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

These are quite a niche prototype and it is difficult to see how the market can be large enough for both manufacturers to recover the cost of their project, never mind make a profit. For Bachmann this is less of an issue - as it is an EFE model the tooling and development cost do not lie with them.

If a coach in China cost £10 out of the factory in 2019, and still cost 30% more today, thats still only £13.

if a coach in UK sold for £40 at retail in 2019 and still cost 30% more today thats still only £52.

 

There is an element to pricing that suggests smaller production runs at a higher price point protects margin, but lowers the overall risk.

 

Hence I suspect both could make money, not be out of pocket, cover their costs.

What may not happen is larger margins on future reruns. It also squeezes speculators out of the market as its less likely to be rare, and they could represent the difference between a smaller run today, than larger runs of old.

 

sometimes on the forum I think we get too close to accomodating the manufacturers, and less for ourselves, the consumer.. its their business how they fight it out…

As a consumer take it for what it is…. I’m -1 a Heljan set, + 3 EFE and I will still have 6, but save £50 and still have both.

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

On 17/06/2023 at 13:17, brushman47544 said:

Didn’t Chris Leigh comment on here a few years ago about the practice across the channel? The manufacturers talked to the various national modelling groups about future plans and there was some sharing of information about potential models already being worked on elsewhere, meaning some duplication could be avoided. But that does have to work on trust - manufacturers wouldn’t simply block a model by saying they were producing it when they hadn’t actually started working on it.

 

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Sorry that sort of action would fall squarely under 'anti-competitive activity' by the Competition & Markets Authority!

 

Given the end result of any investigation is likley to be big fines if communication does take place it will be on a totally unofficial personal level and strictly verbal type - plus even then it has to be carefully done.

All respect to your career in railways, but business is different.

Anyone, you, me, a company can discuss any ideas they are thinking of public and private.

Business confidentiality is just that.. its not anti-competitive.

a business can have an open or private discussion about any ideas they want.

what they cannot do is collude to distort the market.. “i will do this if you do that” or “i will sell to him if you sell to her” or “lets both agree a price”.

 

if company A talks to a club and says they want to do x,y,z, and that club was not under nda, and indicated another company B had expressed interest in x.. thats not illegal. Its upto Company A or B to chose to continue or not, and if no conversation took place between company A and B theres nothing wrong at all. Indeed even if A talked to B, and openly shared intention to make X its not illegal (it might be breaching employee confidentiality, it might even be an authorised bluff), but as along as A and B dont make agreements its fine.

 

Take TT… it would be extremely odd that Gaugemaster, Heljan, Peco and Hornby all woke up the same day and announced their intentions to start TT… there was obviously industry discussions that took place. However, it was also abundently clear their was no collusion as two players backed out the day it was launched, and players were duplicating from the outset (maybe they were bluffing all along ?).. thats legitimate business.

 

Talks between companies happen daily, right now anyone and his dog is talking about what they are going to do in AI… whether they do or not is a different thing, and you can bet some will steal each others ideas, and some ideas will be pie in the sky… but as long as those discussions dont result in agreements that distort the market, its fine.

 

Laws arent anti business, they are about protecting the consumer, and if it benefits the consumer, say one party making the Chambers motor rail and another making the Deltic to pull them.. then thats something thats actually encouraged and grows the market.

I suspect the newton chambers is a product of cockup rather than competition… both are almost ready for market.. both will have been started years ago, during covid and lockdown… it is what it is, if one had known of the other 2 years ago they may have made different decisions, but learning what a competitor is doing and deciding to skip it, isnt illegal.

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by adb968008

[Ravenser]

2 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

If a coach in China cost £10 out of the factory in 2019, and still cost 30% more today, thats still only £13.

if a coach in UK sold for £40 at retail in 2019 and still cost 30% more today thats still only £52.

 

There is an element to pricing that suggests smaller production runs at a higher price point protects margin, but lowers the overall risk.

 

Hence I suspect both could make money, not be out of pocket, cover their costs.

What may not happen is larger margins on future reruns.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately the "going rate" for OO RTR coaches is now £65-£80 , not £52. Hornby railroad coaches are at about the price point but the whole point of those is that they are deliberately designed to minimise production and assembly costs on the Design Clever principle.

 

These are fairly plain vehicles, and as far as I am aware there aren't variations, which simplifies the tooling . They still cost £70 - and that's the cheaper model of the two.

 

Continental HO went down the "short-run /high unit price" road 15-20 years ago - and the HO RTR market imploded, with sales falling by 25%. (I assume that's by value - sales by units probably fell rather more than that). Nearly all the Continental manufacturers went into administration or were taken over as a result...

 

We can argue that Rolls Royce and Bentley have a better business model than Ford and Nissan. But only a small proportion of us would be able to drive if the automotive industry went down that route

[adb968008]

20 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

Unfortunately the "going rate" for OO RTR coaches is now £65-£80 , not £52. Hornby railroad coaches are at about the price point but the whole point of those is that they are deliberately designed to minimise production and assembly costs on the Design Clever principle.

 

These are fairly plain vehicles, and as far as I am aware there aren't variations, which simplifies the tooling . They still cost £70 - and that's the cheaper model of the two.

 

Continental HO went down the "short-run /high unit price" road 15-20 years ago - and the HO RTR market imploded, with sales falling by 25%. (I assume that's by value - sales by units probably fell rather more than that). Nearly all the Continental manufacturers went into administration or were taken over as a result...

 

I’m not sure i’d agree…

 

European HO has changed… Chinese manufacturing has opened a whole new niche to the market.

Its hurt the traditional Germany companies who were charging substantial premiums over UK prices for 5 decades.. but entrants like Aughagen, Sud Est, LS, Piko, Robo Modelle have sprung up filling the market with premium detail at differing pricing levels from prices lower than UK prices, right upto Brass rtr pricing levels.

 

its also opened new markets… nearly every current prototype running in Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia is now available in super detail, rtr at prices lower than UK models.

 

Rather than shrink Europe, its hugely expanded it… I can buy a model of a Vectron from Trix, Piko, Roco, LS Models, Jagendorfer, Pirata..

its quite clear theres no collusion in that market, and everyone has decided to no only want a piece of vectron action, but they all went for the same super detailed space too…

Thats hardly a shrinking market.

As for prices in the Uk market… well I’m sure the factory door cost of a HO model isnt that different to a OO one, from China.. I just bought a 3 car PKP EN57 EMU with fantastic super detail level for £150 less than the advertised price of Heljans class 104… I suspect theirs a political price  affecting Uk models since the last few years, coupled with political inflation too.

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by adb968008

[VIA185]

On 17/06/2023 at 13:17, brushman47544 said:

Didn’t Chris Leigh comment on here a few years ago about the practice across the channel? The manufacturers talked to the various national modelling groups about future plans and there was some sharing of information about potential models already being worked on elsewhere, meaning some duplication could be avoided. But that does have to work on trust - manufacturers wouldn’t simply block a model by saying they were producing it when they hadn’t actually started working on it.

Did I? I certainly don't remember doing so but then my memory isn't what it was. I don't want to get drawn into this present debacle as I'm sure my past views on duplication are pretty well known. (CJL)

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 I notice from another post that Sonic have announced these in N, and it is an obvious question whether they might be the source of this EFE model

 

Before speculation of origins extends into another scale (of course it annoys me) I can firmly say the Sonic model is completely independent in design and production. So that hare can be stopped running right now.

[adb968008]

It does seem odd that people have a hard time believing EFE can come up with their own stuff.

 

The Newton Chambers isnt their first rodeo either… theyve already done the LSWR coaches, and arguably the Northern Tube is completely new.. I see nothing in that die-cast tooling carried over.

 

I’m finding this brand interesting, and quite unpredictable. (As side of a west country bias).

i’d give them odds on favourite for the first ever accurate ready to run milk tanker (GWR diagram my guess).

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by adb968008

[ruggedpeak]

the weathering of their ATW 143's was definitely interesting!🤣

 

Anyone know where to get info on the Newtons being used with Mk3 sleepers?

[Josiah]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

It all reinforces my sense that 4mm is nearly mined out in terms of new subjects with decent commercial prospects. 

Strong disagree sorry, many many multiple unit types left un-touched over all sorts of eras, great for "space saving" layouts as well, likewise with modern infrastructure wagons . Lots of low hanging fruit left. There is the claim there is "no new blood" often touted around here yet how much of the real railway today can one realistically purchase in model form?  I can't be the only one to think a "simplistic" Electrostar, right shape with head and tail lights but a stripped out interior / dark windows -  would be a good money earner? 

 

Rather more on topic, these are great looking vehicles, perhaps slightly crisper than Heljans around the end door hinges - lettering may not have been straight on their sample photographs, I suspect it would have been hand painted originally in real life so perhaps more authentic.. 

 

 

[Porcy Mane]

Nice buffers.  Unlike the Heljan model.