Accurascale class 92 and 37 slowing down then speeding up

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

With this being about the motor it seems,i believe the motor itself is a petty much a one used by a few manufacturors and has brush gear thats screwed to the endcap. @adb968008 has done extensive work on the Hattons 66 and others with issues so he might be of help as im sure surging was one of the issues. Perhaps its time for an Accuramotor with servicable brushgear as well as Accuracontrol system for supply.

On the voltage i find the NCE i have is 13 ish volts ,so if ESU need higher then thats possibly an issue or a bigger lightning rod on the roof perhaps.

Edited September 21, 2023 by ERIC ALLTORQUE

[Accurascale Fran]

32 minutes ago, Geordielad said:

My appreciation to Crosland, The Meercat, Adamvb, Kaput, Crosland not forgetting Fran, for your replies.

Well I thought I was alone (not really) with this problem and clearly I am not.

I'm so glad I posted my trouble on RM web, seeking information and am really pleased with all the helpful information received.

I can only hope Accurascale can resolve this problem as the locomotives they are producing are so good with detail, quality, price, but running?

 

Hi @Geordielad,

 

We are always happy to help anyone who has any issues with any Accurascale product as best we can. Just for balance, we have put literally tens of thousands of locomotives with this drive train on the market over 2 years now, and tens of thousands run spot on. They also spent 6 weeks running day in, day out for 8 hours a day on Making Tracks 3 without issue, other than the bufferbeam detail falling off that we stuck on with poor glue! 

 

These are very much isolated issues, and as demonstrated on the previous page with the youtube video the answer can be found elsewhere concerning controllers, connectivity, voltage etc. Each situation can be unique.

 

No manufacturer is immune to the odd rogue loco. It is always interesting that some customers have failure with every loco from a particular brand they receive. Is that really really bad luck, or could there be an issue on the layout that's causing it? It's not playing the blame game, it's getting to the bottom of the issue  so a customer can enjoy their models without headaches. We always work to diagnose as best we can, and why we recommend always to talk to our support team. After all, we have locos with more advanced electronics inside than many that have gone before, so comparing them to others when they are different under the hood isn't always the best way to look at it. And nobody knows the inside of our locos better than our support team,

 

Please reach out via email if you have an issue, we are here to help.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, Accurascale Fran said:

 

It is always interesting that some customers have failure with every loco from a particular brand they receive. Is that really really bad luck, or could there be an issue on the layout that's causing it? It's not playing the blame game, it's getting to the bottom of the issue  so a customer can enjoy their models without headaches.

Absolutely this. I think for the majority of us, especially RTR purchasers, basic electrics and electronics are the most neglected/least understood aspect of the entire hobby. Basically we just want to run trains and we add more and more loco's of increasing complexity without even considering if our layouts are 'up to it'. I'm in the midst (actually two thirds through thankgoodness !) of a re wire having found out that the cheap wire I used for the DCC bus 10 or so years ago is hardly fit enough for the droppers. It seems self evident no one should be relying on fishplates for current transmission even on DC and certainly not on a layout thats grown in length and complexity from a basic original configuration. Likewise starter controllers and power supplies both age and become inadequate. 

 

Layout electrics aren't exciting like loco's and trains but they are essential to reliable performance and the new 21st century models are doing us a service in highlighting our weak spots.

[CazRail]

Has confirmation this morning that a replacement 37605 is on the way. Very greatful, and happy with the service from Accurascale. 
 

@Accurascale Fran out if curiosity, is there any one cause for the models failing or different causes?

[Accurascale Fran]

11 minutes ago, CazRail said:

Has confirmation this morning that a replacement 37605 is on the way. Very greatful, and happy with the service from Accurascale. 
 

@Accurascale Fran out if curiosity, is there any one cause for the models failing or different causes?

 

Hi @CazRail,

 

Very glad to be of assistance. We find when there is a QC issue that has resulted in a loco failure it is either a rogue motor or the DCC decoder has gone pop. Very occasionally a loose wiring connection but those could be counted on one hand. 

 

A fault occurring on the user side is almost always a voltage issue with layout, either not enough, or way too much. Occasionally too there is something plugged into the layout that should not be. The way too much voltage is very much the cause of using ancient controllers which leak and see massive voltage spikes.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Accurascale Fran

[55020]

18 hours ago, Kaput said:

For what its worth I had the issue with my 37 (and its replacement) with my Z21's track voltage set to 15V. The first one seemed to work fine if BEMF was disabled on the decoder, never bothered trying that when the replacement developed the issue as it basically killed my mojo to continue, hence the refund request.

Part of me does wonder if making the locos so damned heavy with built in stay alives is really just too much strain on the electronics.

 

It can't be that simple, as all locos would demonstrate the issue.  I have 6 AS locos and thankfully don't have an issue with any.

 

 

Steve

[woodenhead]

13 minutes ago, Accurascale Fran said:

 

The way too much voltage is very much the cause of using ancient controllers which leak and see massive voltage spikes.

 

 

Perhaps then a list of known 'bad' controllers could be issued so that purchasers can establish if they might be in for trouble.

[SRman]

On the subject of voltages, I have found that the stay-alives don't work on my layout using the NCE Power Pro system which has a 15V (laptop adapter) feed into the main box, but they do work perfectly when using a Power Cab on the separate programming track, and that uses a 13.5V NCE power supply. Both are stabilised supplies. That applies to two class 37s (so far!) and four class 92s.

Similarly, the stay-alive didn't function on DougN's layout with a Digitrax system, but I don't know what his supply voltage is. That was with a solitary class 92.

Fortunately, my main layout's power continuity is good, so I have never really needed to use stay-alives with one specific exception (an underground driving motor that only had pickups at one end).

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by SRman
Additional info and clarification.

[Accurascale Fran]

27 minutes ago, SRman said:

On the subject of voltages, I have found that the stay-alives don't work on my layout using the NCE Power Pro system which has a 15V (laptop adapter) feed into the main box, but they do work perfectly when using a Power Cab on the separate programming track, and that uses a 13.5V NCE power supply. Both are stabilised supplies. That applies to two class 37s (so far!) and four class 92s.

Similarly, the stay-alive didn't function on DougN's layout with a Digitrax system, but I don't know what his supply voltage is. That was with a solitary class 92.

Fortunately, my main layout's power continuity is good, so I have never really needed to use stay-alives with one specific exception (an underground driving motor that only had pickups at one end).

 

 

Hi SRman, 

 

Would a laptop adapter provide enough amps? We're not sure it would be. Could be the issue?

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

[Knapdale]

1 hour ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Absolutely this. I think for the majority of us, especially RTR purchasers, basic electrics and electronics are the most neglected/least understood aspect of the entire hobby. Basically we just want to run trains and we add more and more loco's of increasing complexity without even considering if our layouts are 'up to it'. I'm in the midst (actually two thirds through thankgoodness !) of a re wire having found out that the cheap wire I used for the DCC bus 10 or so years ago is hardly fit enough for the droppers. It seems self evident no one should be relying on fishplates for current transmission even on DC and certainly not on a layout thats grown in length and complexity from a basic original configuration. Likewise starter controllers and power supplies both age and become inadequate. 

 

Layout electrics aren't exciting like loco's and trains but they are essential to reliable performance and the new 21st century models are doing us a service in highlighting our weak spots.

This may be the case for DCC fitted models, but I don’t understand how this could apply to analogue operation. Are Accurascale motors really so advanced that they can’t cope with a Gaugemaster transformer producing 30-40% of its available 15v DC current around an oval of track?

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

1 hour ago, Accurascale Fran said:

counted on one hand. 

 

A snip if your name is Edward........

 

4 minutes ago, Accurascale Fran said:

 

Hi SRman, 

 

Would a laptop adapter provide enough amps? We're not sure it would be. Could be the issue?

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

Out of interest Fran what do you use for test and on your own layout in the towers ,sounds like a 15 volt, 5 amp smoothed supply is required?

[McC]

9 minutes ago, Knapdale said:

This may be the case for DCC fitted models, but I don’t understand how this could apply to analogue operation. Are Accurascale motors really so advanced that they can’t cope with a Gaugemaster transformer producing 30-40% of its available 15v DC current around an oval of track?

 

15V is just the voltage, the current matters too, but as Fran said, reach out to support if anyone has any specific issues, as the 8000 odd reviews on even just our own website will attest, any issues at all are very much the exception. 

[Knapdale]

3 hours ago, Accurascale Fran said:

 

Hi @Geordielad,

 

We are always happy to help anyone who has any issues with any Accurascale product as best we can. Just for balance, we have put literally tens of thousands of locomotives with this drive train on the market over 2 years now, and tens of thousands run spot on. They also spent 6 weeks running day in, day out for 8 hours a day on Making Tracks 3 without issue, other than the bufferbeam detail falling off that we stuck on with poor glue! 

 

These are very much isolated issues, and as demonstrated on the previous page with the youtube video the answer can be found elsewhere concerning controllers, connectivity, voltage etc. Each situation can be unique.

 

No manufacturer is immune to the odd rogue loco. It is always interesting that some customers have failure with every loco from a particular brand they receive. Is that really really bad luck, or could there be an issue on the layout that's causing it? It's not playing the blame game, it's getting to the bottom of the issue  so a customer can enjoy their models without headaches. We always work to diagnose as best we can, and why we recommend always to talk to our support team. After all, we have locos with more advanced electronics inside than many that have gone before, so comparing them to others when they are different under the hood isn't always the best way to look at it. And nobody knows the inside of our locos better than our support team,

 

Please reach out via email if you have an issue, we are here to help.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

I appreciate what you write, but is it too much to ask for a modern model loco to run consistently on a basic oval of track using 30-40% of a 15v DC analogue supply roughly 5 years old. The only manufacturer I’ve had issues like this with is Accurascale. What doesn’t make sense to me is that after they’ve been “repaired”, they at some point afterwards fail again. I don’t think it’s bad luck, nor do I think it’s an issue with my layout, which is at the basic end of model railway power supply. 

[SRman]

45 minutes ago, Accurascale Fran said:

 

Hi SRman, 

 

Would a laptop adapter provide enough amps? We're not sure it would be. Could be the issue?

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

 

5 amps should be sufficient. it is a 5 amp system anyway, so more than that would not be used by the NCE system.

As for the Power Cab, that power supply is only 1.3 amps, as well as being at a lower voltage.

I am puzzled as to why the higher powered system doesn't work the stay-alives, but it is not an issue for my normal operations at all.

[McC]

2 hours ago, SRman said:

 

5 amps should be sufficient. it is a 5 amp system anyway, so more than that would not be used by the NCE system.

As for the Power Cab, that power supply is only 1.3 amps, as well as being at a lower voltage.

I am puzzled as to why the higher powered system doesn't work the stay-alives, but it is not an issue for my normal operations at all.

 

Drop the team a line with specifics and we can best advise. 

[CazRail]

@Accurascale Fran  @McC Thanks for your info. 
 

I decided to check the voltage that my controller sends out. I use the Digikeijs DR5000, and at it’s strongest point on the layout (where dropper nearest the controller is) I recorded 16.8v.

 

Could that voltage be enough to cause damage to the locos, or would it need to be higher/substantially higher? 
 

Thanks,

Caz

[McC]

22 minutes ago, CazRail said:

@Accurascale Fran  @McC Thanks for your info. 
 

I decided to check the voltage that my controller sends out. I use the Digikeijs DR5000, and at it’s strongest point on the layout (where dropper nearest the controller is) I recorded 16.8v.

 

Could that voltage be enough to cause damage to the locos, or would it need to be higher/substantially higher? 
 

Thanks,

Caz

 

You would need to be over 20V to kick in the protection circuitry. Generally if you have a 'modern' controller in good nick, all is well, but as above, rather than asking us 'marketing' types, the gurus are on the end of the chat, email, sms or dm :) 

[adamvb]

8 minutes ago, McC said:

 

You would need to be over 20V to kick in the protection circuitry. Generally if you have a 'modern' controller in good nick, all is well, but as above, rather than asking us 'marketing' types, the gurus are on the end of the chat, email, sms or dm :) 

 

I think it might also be worth having some time for your technical guys to head onto the forum to see the problems and provide advice - email 1 to 1 is great, but sometimes a group discussion can provide a more rounded view of issues to aid progress to a solution. Ultimately we all just want them to work as reliably as our other locos do!

 

Just to note I have emailed in outlining my experience with the 37 and previous locos and so far I've carried out a decoder reset and been told to send my loco back to retailer because this didn't work, and then asked about my controller setup and power rating which is a PiSprog3 with a 15V 3A PSU and a Bachmann Dynamis with a 16V 2.3A PSU - both should be fine and are in spec but the erractic running has been seen with 5 consecutive Accurascale Locos (Deltic, 92, 92, 92, 37). I'd be happy to carry out other tests as I just want them to work else I can't buy anything further with confidence!

Edited September 21, 2023 by adamvb

[Kaput]

Having some thoughts around the voltage discussion (and voltage spikes) it dawned on me I removed the DCC Concepts bus suppressor things (https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/new-bus-suppressors-terminators-2-pack/) from my layout shortly after getting the Z21 to try and narrow down a Railcom oddity so they've never been fitted while I had a 37.

Not in the slightest bit sure if the suppressors actually do anything but thought its worth a mention as food for thought.

[Neil]

5 hours ago, Accurascale Fran said:

 

Hi @CazRail,

 

Very glad to be of assistance. We find when there is a QC issue that has resulted in a loco failure it is either a rogue motor or the DCC decoder has gone pop. Very occasionally a loose wiring connection but those could be counted on one hand. 

 

A fault occurring on the user side is almost always a voltage issue with layout, either not enough, or way too much. Occasionally too there is something plugged into the layout that should not be. The way too much voltage is very much the cause of using ancient controllers which leak and see massive voltage spikes.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

 

5 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Perhaps then a list of known 'bad' controllers could be issued so that purchasers can establish if they might be in for trouble.

 

Hang on, is there such a thing as a bad controller? As far as I can tell no one has said they're using a fifty year old H&M or Marshall set up. Is it unreasonable to suggest that rtr models should work with a range of controllers in common use today?

 

 

 

[spamcan61]

2 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

 

Hang on, is there such a thing as a bad controller? As far as I can tell no one has said they're using a fifty year old H&M or Marshall set up. Is it unreasonable to suggest that rtr models should work with a range of controllers in common use today?

 

Agreed, and we've had similar discussions in the HM7000 and coreless motor threads (for example)  in recent times. It would be good if manufacturers (not just AS) could give some guidance at least if there are specific types / designs of controller to avoid. Even a maximum voltage and required supply current for the model would be a start. The electronics in even non DCC locos / coaches have become much more complex in recent times and so the chances of some degree of incompatibility / damage potential have increased significantly IMHO.

[Accurascale Fran]

2 hours ago, Neil said:

 

 

Hang on, is there such a thing as a bad controller? As far as I can tell no one has said they're using a fifty year old H&M or Marshall set up. Is it unreasonable to suggest that rtr models should work with a range of controllers in common use today?

 

 

 

Hi @Neil,

 

Apologies, nobody on this thread has said they’ve used such an old controller, it was just a previous support case I saw where a 50 year old clipper was used (with a DCC concepts volt meter) and in the video showed a spike of 27.9 volts into an Accurascale loco.

We’ve seen a few cases where thoroughly ancient (and possibly unsafe due to age) controllers were used, so thought it was worth mentioning as they have a habit of causing spikes.

 

We’ve reached out to the folk at sprog too to assist their customer having issues. We are also compiling a list of controllers we do not recommend using on our locomotives and will publish it on our website and include in future literature in new locos. We believe our friends at Rapido do this too.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran

Edited September 21, 2023 by Accurascale Fran

[spamcan61]

As an example of controller voltage outputs here's ye olde Duette versus a couple of recent Hornby 'Train set' controllers I measured over in the HM7000 thread a while back, all kicking out over 20V peak.

 

≥>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

hmmm not sure that's worked too well 

 

round 2: Hornby controller + PSU supplied with my TT:120 set. So: under low load conditions still only 60% ish duty cycle; hey at least it's a nice rectangular waveform under load. Again not at all sure the chip will cope with that without a stay alive. I used 25 ohms as 'full load' this time as I think this controller is only rated to half amp or thereabouts.
 

     
 

     

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 

     

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 

     

     
 

     
 
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/176499-Hornby-2023-bluetooth-decoders-and-control-system/?do=findComment&comment=5149932

Edited September 21, 2023 by spamcan61

[IOW O2]

On 21/09/2023 at 10:23, Accurascale Fran said:

Is that really really bad luck, or could there be an issue on the layout that's causing it? 

 

Back to GM, I find this a bit concerning.  I have a 3yr old GM100M and an 18mth old Series U simulation/inertia.  My Deltic did this slowing etc. on both so a trip to the local club to double check the Deltic on their fixed and exhibition layouts.  These use a mix of Morley, GM, and Merg kit built controllers, the Deltic did the same on the clubs, some of the clubs 37's do the same as Geordielad  and Knapdales. Not all of us have this option of course to double check on another controller..

 

The Delic at full power uses 9.25V and 650ma, at half speed 4.6v and 500ma on mine and clubs.  My B/mann 37 uses 7V/150mA and 2.2v/0.80ma.  Last weeks new arrival Manor is 4V/200ma at half speed, mind you it took @18 hours to run in as posted on Manor thread, but at least I am fortunate that my track was good enough to leave Manor unattended for hours at time.

 

On 19th Accurascale Fran said:

If several locos have gone wrong it points to something occuring in power supply rather than the locos themselves, as nobody can be that unlucky with duff motors. 

 

I have been unlucky with one of the two big rivals, eight locos bought since 2018 only 3 Ok, rest went back after testing elsewhere as above.

Edited September 22, 2023 by IOW O2
spelling

[Geordielad]

Just to let everyone know I received my Accurascale class 37 in Europhoenix R.O.G. livery Andromeda, yesterday 21.9.23.

It is in perfect condition, but I did notice it had been run (by the usual tell tale signs on the wheels)

I set up the switches inside the roof cover for DC as described in the warning card.

I then ran it as I always do for 1/2 hour in one direction then 1/2 in the other at a 40 to 50% speed on my Model D, it ran beautifully.

I have today 22.9.23. ran it for quite a while with various wagons with no sign of slowdown/speedup, great I can only hope it continues to behave itself?

I am really pleased with loco it runs really smoothly and is so quiet, also it looks brilliant.

Why my loco had been run before I received it? I am not bothered as I am so chuffed to finally get what I wanted, a great loco.

I bought my loco from a retailer not Accurascale as they had none. I assume someone has been testing it somewhere along the line.

It cannot be second hand as this loco is from the batch just released.

Thanks everyone for all your input, Bill.