RMweb Premium Jeremy Cumberland Posted October 2, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 2, 2023 13 minutes ago, john new said: A very flippant comment as until the facts come out we don’t know if wrongly/or differently positioned coaches vis-a-vis what the loco crew were told before the move commenced is in fact one of the things leading to the bump. As I mentioned above when things go wrong it is often from several things collectively occurring, none of which would have been a single cause. The need was for all to combine. Let us just wait for the official answer. There are indeed several possibilities, but my comment was no less well valid than many others on here, including some by very knowledgeable people. From the video, it seems a reasonable supposition that the driver did not expect the coaches to be there. What was he expecting instead? What information had he been given? Was it his duty to look out for obstructions, or was he, for example, proceeding under a cleared main signal, leading him to believe that the line was unoccupied? What arrangement, if any, had been reached between the driver and fireman in terms of looking out? If the shunter is on the footplate - which appears to be a possibility - had the shunter given the driver misleading information about the position of the coaches? Had the driver mistaken something else for a handsignal? Was a malicious actor giving false handsignals to the driver? Was there a medical incident? Was there a mechanical failure? 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 5 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said: There are indeed several possibilities, but my comment was no less well valid than many others on here, including some by very knowledgeable people. From the video, it seems a reasonable supposition that the driver did not expect the coaches to be there. What was he expecting instead? What information had he been given? Was it his duty to look out for obstructions, or was he, for example, proceeding under a cleared main signal, leading him to believe that the line was unoccupied? What arrangement, if any, had been reached between the driver and fireman in terms of looking out? If the shunter is on the footplate - which appears to be a possibility - had the shunter given the driver misleading information about the position of the coaches? Had the driver mistaken something else for a handsignal? Was a malicious actor giving false handsignals to the driver? Was there a medical incident? Was there a mechanical failure? Answering all those, and possibly other questions, is of course, the purpose of an inquiry, whose answers will be evidence based rather than speculative. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 2, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 2, 2023 1 hour ago, LMS2968 said: The assumption being made, and this is also being made by Mike the Stationmaster, for whom I have the greatest respect, is that the driver knew the stock was where it was and not a lot further back. I'd suggest that the approach speed could indicate that this was the case, and being on a left-hand curve with that big tender in the way, he would not discover his error until the last minute. Of course, this would raise other questions, such as why he didn't know and why the fireman, who was looking back, did not intervene, at least in sufficient time. If this was so, stopping short of the stock has no relevance; you have to know where it is to do that. I'm sure Mike will agree with me that, however many knowledgeable railwaymen there are, you do not condemn a men or jump to a conclusion until you have heard his side of the story. It might turn out that all the above was wrong and the earlier theories are correct, but we don't know. Let the inquiry establish ALL the facts. I quite agree that it is quite possible that the Druver did not know where the train was although in view of what appears to have been taking place I'm not really sure why he wouldn't know that (assuming he was - as should have been) familiar with the line and what was planned to take etc). But this then raises a host of further issues -particularly why he was not proceeding with considerable caution if he didn't know where the train was? It could of course be that he had been told that the train was somewhere else - in which case I would tend to excuse him to some extent but still censure him for not moving with extreme caution looking out for a handsignal. And indeed for actually moving at all when he was - seemingly - not being given a handsignal authorising him to move, or continue to move, towards the train which he presumably knew was 'there somewhere'. It all comes over as somewhat 'sloppy' in terms of operational professionalism/lack thereof. If he didn't know the train was there then I agree he could hardly stop short of it but that does not excuse him one bit from moving towards it without receiving a handsignal from someone on the ground (or a back-to-back radio continuous tone or talking him back). So even then some serious operational safety Rules were broken by the Driver although that could now extend to others as well. (There does in any case seem to have been no red light in the vicinity of the train from what we could see on the video), And surely the person leaning out of the cab on the Fireman''s side must have been able to see the train on that curvature - even if the lens of the film camera is slightly distirting the impression of the curve? 1 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted October 2, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) If you don’t know where the train you are supposed to buffer up to is, how can you move towards that train without finding this rather important point out? Buffering up /shunting 101 surely? Edited October 2, 2023 by PhilH 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 2, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 2, 2023 9 minutes ago, PhilH said: If you don’t know where the train you are supposed to buffer up is, how can you move towards that train without finding this rather important point out? Buffering up /shunting 101 surely? Agreed, but that presupposes the train is actually where you think it is..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted October 2, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said: Agreed, but that presupposes the train is actually where you think it is..... That's the whole point you don't assume you make absolutely sure before you commit to a move towards the train. Edited October 2, 2023 by PhilH Don't have the TV on when you are dictating a reply! 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted October 2, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) 33 minutes ago, PhilH said: If you don’t know where the train you are supposed to buffer up is, how can you move towards that train without finding this rather important point out? Buffering up /shunting 101 surely? Unless the whole scenario went completely belly up. The RS set was on the line it was supposed to be on but further forward thereby fouling the other line and the MK1s weren't even supposed to be there (or the converse) leaving one through road clear. Sort of what @Jeremy Cumberland said - " it seems a reasonable supposition that the driver did not expect the coaches to be there." In either of those options if 60103 was expecting to run through, perhaps even at a further point in the shunting maneuver hook onto the other end, it would explain the speed and the guys on the balcony were perhaps expecting to watch Scotsman pass them by. As mentioned before, all very odd suggesting the original game plan significantly differed from what happened, let's await something official. Edited October 2, 2023 by john new Added in a further sentence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted October 2, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 2, 2023 I'm sorry to labour the point but if you go with what you expect or what you assume then you will have an accident. You have to make absolutely sure as to what actually is, that is your responsibility as a driver, and act accordingly. 3 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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