009 micro modeller Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 I think the question in some cases is what is the point of the line in question and what is it supposed to do? Is it to provide public transport? Some lines were originally set up with this as an aspiration or aim but generally have now moved away from this. But if they do want to provide a proper transport function, how are they going to compete with the alternatives and do it in a way that is cost effective (given that the line often closed originally because it wasn’t considered cost effective)? Or is it to provide a heritage attraction/living museum kind of experience? In which case are they making an effort to perform the sort of educational, interpretation and preservation functions (among others) that might be expected of a museum, and if relevant are they working towards accreditation etc.? Or is it to provide more of a purely tourist attraction with less emphasis on heritage? Then it’s probably more about running efficiently and attracting enough people, increasing secondary spend and extras targeted to those who are willing to pay for them. If it’s just as a hobby for people who want to run a railway (which even on its own is a completely acceptable reason for a line to exist) then it might be a combination of all the above, depending on what is most financially viable and most interesting for the volunteers. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northmoor Posted January 3 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3 41 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said: I think the question in some cases is what is the point of the line in question and what is it supposed to do? I have been a member of or involved with about ten preservation societies and schemes over the years. Of those, I think only half really knew what they were trying to achieve; by that I mean the majority of the working members knew how what they were doing, contributed to the scheme's overall aims. The remainder were/are to a greater or lesser extent, a site where various disparate groups locate the equipment of personal interest to them under the loose common aim of "preserving transport heritage". Sadly one (which I won't name) which operates rather like this, has (after nearly 50 years) achieved a tiny fraction of its enormous potential, largely because it was managed by the wrong people - or rather the wrong type of people - without the leadership skills necessary to communicate the original vision and drive the scheme forward. I'm not claiming to have those skills myself, but when you've worked for managers and leaders, you can easily spot the difference. 5 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 6 hours ago, Phil Parker said: Enthusiasts will turn up planning to take a lot of photos, which must include no people, or anything that hints it's not 1952 in shot. For this, they will bring their own sandwiches (the ones in the cafe are far too expensive), then thumb (but not buy) the books in the gift shop, because these aren't being discounted either. They'll be lucky to find any specialist railway books in the giftshop on a lot of preserved lines (but is this because nobody actually buys them?). 1 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 5 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said: They'll be lucky to find any specialist railway books in the giftshop on a lot of preserved lines (but is this because nobody actually buys them?). We have A LOT of secondhand railway books in the shop at Wallingford (some more specialist than others), in large part because people keep donating them and nobody's buying them.... (If you're looking for anything, please feel free to call in and take a look in the shop when we reopen at Easter!). 8 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northmoor Posted January 3 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3 22 minutes ago, RJS1977 said: We have A LOT of secondhand railway books in the shop at Wallingford (some more specialist than others), in large part because people keep donating them and nobody's buying them.... (If you're looking for anything, please feel free to call in and take a look in the shop when we reopen at Easter!). You and many, many other railways..... however it is surprising how often you can visit a major preserved railway in the 2020s and unless in a hut or old coach used by a specific loco or rolling stock group, there are no secondhand books for sale anywhere. The days of railways earning more than trivial amounts from this source, are long gone and as for secondhand magazines*, almost nobody wants them anymore. *Many happy memories of coming away from a preserved railway in the 1980s with a couple of boxfuls! 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 29 minutes ago, Northmoor said: You and many, many other railways..... however it is surprising how often you can visit a major preserved railway in the 2020s and unless in a hut or old coach used by a specific loco or rolling stock group, there are no secondhand books for sale anywhere. The days of railways earning more than trivial amounts from this source, are long gone and as for secondhand magazines*, almost nobody wants them anymore. *Many happy memories of coming away from a preserved railway in the 1980s with a couple of boxfuls! Not just an issue with railway books at preserved railways either. In my younger days, I collected Blue Peter annuals and amassed a pile of about 30 running from the days of Chris Trace and Val Singleton through to Konnie Huq and Zoe Salmon. As my parents are planning a clearout, I called in at the shop in Reading that specialises in TV memorabilia and asked what they might be worth these days. "Can't give 'em away" was the reply. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted January 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4 17 hours ago, rodent279 said: Think maybe as "enthusiasts", we need to recognise that we are being priced out by the buying power of 2+2 taking a trip on a steam train, or those after a more up market luxury dining experience. Those seem to be the things that sell, and make money, and those are the things that a "professional" setup lends itself well to delivering. There's not much money in providing seats for rivet counters like me who just want a plain old ride on a plain old train, without all the froth of bums on seats hype. I think the days of traditional preserved railways are numbered, more and more they will have to present themselves as attractions, like theme parks, or experience days. Looking at the NYMR website, it is clearly geared to the "day out" market, the normals who want an experience, there's not much appealing to the enthusiasts there. i dont think enthusiasts are being priced out...its not like railways raise the prices just because they think that the 2+2 market can afford more because the opposite is true.. @Phil Parker hits the nail on the head (albeit in a more diplomatic way then i would) about the enthusiast market, and i raised that very point about certain corners of the enthusiast circles on the WNXX forum. The majority of hard core enthusiasts (not all) but the majority simply want to spend as little as possible for maximum product....but i will say possibly controversially...this does seem to be more prevalent in the classic diesel bashing circles.... @rodent279it depends how you define a preserved railway, the days of the traditional preserved railway are not numbered....they are long gone...You could argure that every railway is a "traditional preserved railway" if you define it to the meaning of preserved... What do i think you mean?...lets take two opposites... 1, ) Bluebell railway....and in mainstream days were anti diesel....but it dawned on them that its simply not viable to fire up a steam locomotive for a pway train...or to shunt...so diesels had to start creeping in...then you have to ask..is it viable keeping a steam locomotive in light steam just in case its needed...in the early days when money wasnt too much of an issue it was....those days are long gone.... 2,) GWR .....well that line shut in 1976 so by rights...there shouldn't be a steam locomotive in sight.....but without them...the railway wouldnt survive..its a fact...that steam locomotives bring in the vast majority of income on a preserved line. All preserved lines are essentially a what if scenario on someones model railway... the days of a traditional preserved line ended when they evolved into a business and they realised that they couldn't survive on enthusiast income alone.... the transition to a business is inevitable to any preserved line that wants to expand or run passenger trains in a large capacity, since the ORR started taking firm interest in preserved railway operations...the fact is nowadays to survive reliably you need to employ professionals in certain areas...and thats when you become a defacto business.. i cant think of any railways that are now run by a bunch of middle aged blokes with a load of spare time on there hands... 3 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted January 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4 I guess that's really what I was trying to say- traditional preserved railways, run by and for enthusiasts, are no more-they are now businesses in their own right, some quite large. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheatley Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 18 hours ago, Phil Parker said: "Normals" expect clean toilets and somewhere nice to buy food - if these are right, then repeat visits are on the cards. The train ride is part of the experience, but according to a TR manager I talked to, they aren't that fussed about what is on the front. A well-stocked gift shop is also very much part of the package. My mum and dad were National Trust members for years, dad used to record his 'marks out of ten' for everywhere they went in the handbook. Took my mum years to realise that the score was largely based on how good the cafe was. As for the charity vs business angle, a large multi-national famine relief charity based in GWR territory regularly attracts criticism for paying its executives six figure salaries. But it has a turnover equivalent to the GDP of a not so small country - do people really expect that all this is managed by little old ladies in its high street shops in between selling second hand coats and table mats ? As was pointed out to me when I raised it with one of them, the people on six figure salaries are mostly more than capable of earning seven figure incomes in private business but choose not to because they want to do something useful. 3 4 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FraserClarke Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 2 hours ago, pheaton said: the fact is nowadays to survive reliably you need to employ professionals in certain areas...and thats when you become a defacto business Yep - I think where there can be big differences in implementation is understanding *why* you are a business. I suspect the railways with long term success remember they are business *because* they want to be a heritage railway, not the other way around! You see something very similar in the modern academic world, where universities need to be effective businesses to survive - but if they start treating the teaching and research side as the means to a commercial end, then they have rather missed the point! That though is the difference between leadership and management; both are necessary, complimentary, and quite different -- but often confused! 2 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4 (edited) Simplistically you could say preserved railways are the results of enthusiasts who became too enthusiastic, bought their own railway and locos to play trains. They then evolved to earn a few quid towards the costs by selling tickets and souvenirs to passengers. The thing is those enthusiasts are fading out and what we are seeing is how to sustain without destroying what was created, and others are seeking to capitalise on this as a revenue opportunity. I think a realisation though, is preservation, at least operationally, is reaching its Spitfire moment…. We are not far from reaching the limit of what the national rail network can supply to preservation and be revenue generating operationally useful. Pretty much anything built post privatisation will be nigh on impossible to maintain and be useful long term… IT hardware failures will push restorability beyond reach… the software will be long out of support, the processors long out of production and developers unavailable… then theres complexity in managing the electronics which have their own life spans… Finally theres the relevance… A Voyager, an Adelante are hardly bed fellows with a Black 5. Its predictable that several 59/66/67 maybe preserved, but were on the brink when it comes to saving a 56/58 simply because theres so little stock to run them with. Maybe wagon preservation may take off, maybe photo freight trains are the future.. but they arent doing much for preserved railways. I suspect once the last of the Sprinters have gone, that will be the end of useful supply to preserved lines… So consolidation is the next step… taking stock of what you have, and ensuring stocks of spares sufficient for the future…. Theres no more replacement mk1 bogies coming…. Many lines have stacks of them buried under decades of weeds and rusted away through neglect of tarpaulin to cover them, rendering the purchase worthless. imo more mk3’s should have been saved, as its the last domestic rolling stock the preservation industry is going to see… it maybe that future rolling stock needs are dictated by importing old stock from Europe, or beyond, and adjusting platforms, because their stock and parts will outlast domestic supply for a few more decades to allow them to continue… even buffers are fading to memory for passenger stock on national rail in the UK !.. I know its controversial, but it maybe wise for some lines to give up now, and instead become workshops, spare parts suppliers and restoration centres.. consolidating what they have, using the people and resources to serve the industry as long term theres little prospect they will be able to self sustain as a railway. Edited January 4 by adb968008 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted January 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, adb968008 said: Simplistically you could say preserved railways are the results of enthusiasts who became too enthusiastic, bought their own railway and locos to play trains. They then evolved to earn a few quid towards the costs by selling tickets and souvenirs to passengers. The thing is those enthusiasts are fading out and what we are seeing is how to sustain without destroying what was created, and others are seeking to capitalise on this as a revenue opportunity. I think a realisation though, is preservation, at least operationally, is reaching its Spitfire moment…. We are not far from reaching the limit of what the national rail network can supply to preservation and be revenue generating operationally useful. Pretty much anything built post privatisation will be nigh on impossible to maintain and be useful long term… IT hardware failures will push restorability beyond reach… the software will be long out of support, the processors long out of production and developers unavailable… then theres complexity in managing the electronics which have their own life spans… Finally theres the relevance… A Voyager, an Adelante are hardly bed fellows with a Black 5. Its predictable that several 59/66/67 maybe preserved, but were on the brink when it comes to saving a 56/58 simply because theres so little stock to run them with. Maybe wagon preservation may take off, maybe photo freight trains are the future.. but they arent doing much for preserved railways. I suspect once the last of the Sprinters have gone, that will be the end of useful supply to preserved lines… So consolidation is the next step… taking stock of what you have, and ensuring stocks of spares sufficient for the future…. Theres no more replacement mk1 bogies coming…. Many lines have stacks of them buried under decades of weeds and rusted away through neglect of tarpaulin to cover them, rendering the purchase worthless. imo more mk3’s should have been saved, as its the last domestic rolling stock the preservation industry is going to see… it maybe that future rolling stock needs are dictated by importing old stock from Europe, or beyond, and adjusting platforms, because their stock and parts will outlast domestic supply for a few more decades to allow them to continue… even buffers are fading to memory for passenger stock on national rail in the UK !.. I know its controversial, but it maybe wise for some lines to give up now, and instead become workshops, spare parts suppliers and restoration centres.. consolidating what they have, using the people and resources to serve the industry as long term theres little prospect they will be able to self sustain as a railway. Preservation has evolved from a un-regulated hobby to an increasingly regulated industry. And the key word there is evolve...most lines have still adhered to there stated objective which is normally to run trains between point a and point b with a future aspiration to get to point c. you mention relevance and i with respect i couldn't disagree more, if we turn what you said on its head....what relevance is a black 5 to a 16 year old rail enthusiast? Pacers have been preserved in large numbers due to an ease of availability...go back 5 years they were the hated element of the railway....by enthusiasts and punters alike...yet they should be preserved as much as anything, and they are just as relevant. Weve been through several evolutions of the standard BR carriage as you mentioned....yet only 1 type has survived in the number required.... you mentioned mk3s and why they wernt preserved more....its quite simple...they are not suitable for preservation in the medium term... 1,) Air Braked (no trust me you cant vac brake them) 2,) ETH 3,) Monocoque construction which means repairs are beyond the capability of most C&W departments. How many second generation diesels are preserved? 2nd generation rolling stock does not fair well with the preservation usage.... if we pick on the mk3 and you could argue its very relevant to the Mk2 CDEF and some extents the Mk2 A and B you come across a number of issues that preclude there use in preservation. 1,) Air Braked...which rules out 90% of steam locos... 2,) ETH....passenger comfort is high on the list of railways....and a mk3 with no opening windows is like a sauna in the summer and like a fridge in winter without ETH....that means you restricting your mk3s to 37/4s (but you can only have 3 at the most possibly 4 and if you have a buffet in the rake...forget it!) ETH 47s 50s 45/1s and 31s..(31s are on a downward spiral to extinction) there are comparatively few ETH locos in pres...i have left out 33s because the ETH on a 33 is only 750v compared to 800v on a mk3. Mk3s and Mk2s are also a sealed carriage....they have no ventilation, they rely on the fact that they are constantly in use....leave a mk3 over the winter and in the spring you will find its harbouring all sorts of fungal life in the soft furnishings and the air conditioning system. Hence why most carriage sidings kept them on a shore ETH supply....and why 47701 found a second life as a carriage heater at doncaster works... 3,) Construction, mk2s and mk3s are monocoque, which gives them a massive strength advantage over a mk1....the down side is....if you allow it to get too rotten they are very very difficult to repair, and require specialist welders, and specialist kit to carry out those repairs. Thats before we look at the ETH electronics...Motor alternator sets, roller bearings, disc brakes...power internal doors..and your posh air suspension on the mk3...suddenly we are beyond the skills of dave the panel beater who fixes mk1s in his spare time...and roger the carpenter.... suddenly....the practicalities of a mk1 look very very attractive...and the basic engineering on the running gear can be refreshed and repaired a lot easier. and its the same with diesels, class 56s onwards do not like sitting for long periods of time out of use, the electrical control cards degrade....and they are very difficult and expensive to repair... Preservation will continually evolve...the people who collected steam engine numbers are dwindling....along the personal association to steam powered transport, and it will survive for as long as they can attract enthusiasts to it....but as you point out...the next generation of enthusiasts will feel more affinity to 66s and 67s and 59s....how long they will be able to keep them in traffic for due to the evolution of engineering in them is difficult to say.... 58s and 56s...the ship has already sailed on those...if you preserve one now you will find it difficult to obtain enough spares to keep them viable in the long term.... classic locos share a number of common parts so the spares pool is still quite large....or...groups are trying engineer modern equivalent parts into them... and this is partly because BR insisted on standardisation for cost and simplicity....thats long gone with the modern types...and even the 2nd generation types...where they all had there own individual parts pools. you try swapping the modules between a 58 and 56 and you will quickly run into trouble... Edited January 4 by pheaton 4 2 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
009 micro modeller Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 15 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said: They'll be lucky to find any specialist railway books in the giftshop on a lot of preserved lines (but is this because nobody actually buys them?). It would be good if they had specialist books relating to the actual line itself, where such books actually exist. People do buy these sort of things when they’ve visited a historic site etc. and want to find out more. I’m not sure there’s always as much of a market for a more comprehensive range though. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, pheaton said: Preservation has evolved from a un-regulated hobby to an increasingly regulated industry. And the key word there is evolve...most lines have still adhered to there stated objective which is normally to run trains between point a and point b with a future aspiration to get to point c. you mention relevance and i with respect i couldn't disagree more, if we turn what you said on its head....what relevance is a black 5 to a 16 year old rail enthusiast? Pacers have been preserved in large numbers due to an ease of availability...go back 5 years they were the hated element of the railway....by enthusiasts and punters alike...yet they should be preserved as much as anything, and they are just as relevant. Weve been through several evolutions of the standard BR carriage as you mentioned....yet only 1 type has survived in the number required.... you mentioned mk3s and why they wernt preserved more....its quite simple...they are not suitable for preservation in the medium term... 1,) Air Braked (no trust me you cant vac brake them) 2,) ETH 3,) Monocoque construction which means repairs are beyond the capability of most C&W departments. How many second generation diesels are preserved? 2nd generation rolling stock does not fair well with the preservation usage.... if we pick on the mk3 and you could argue its very relevant to the Mk2 CDEF and some extents the Mk2 A and B you come across a number of issues that preclude there use in preservation. 1,) Air Braked...which rules out 90% of steam locos... 2,) ETH....passenger comfort is high on the list of railways....and a mk3 with no opening windows is like a sauna in the summer and like a fridge in winter without ETH....that means you restricting your mk3s to 37/4s (but you can only have 3 at the most possibly 4 and if you have a buffet in the rake...forget it!) ETH 47s 50s 45/1s and 31s..(31s are on a downward spiral to extinction) there are comparatively few ETH locos in pres...i have left out 33s because the ETH on a 33 is only 750v compared to 800v on a mk3. Mk3s and Mk2s are also a sealed carriage....they have no ventilation, they rely on the fact that they are constantly in use....leave a mk3 over the winter and in the spring you will find its harbouring all sorts of fungal life in the soft furnishings and the air conditioning system. Hence why most carriage sidings kept them on a shore ETH supply....and why 47701 found a second life as a carriage heater at doncaster works... 3,) Construction, mk2s and mk3s are monocoque, which gives them a massive strength advantage over a mk1....the down side is....if you allow it to get too rotten they are very very difficult to repair, and require specialist welders, and specialist kit to carry out those repairs. Thats before we look at the ETH electronics...Motor alternator sets, roller bearings, disc brakes...power internal doors..and your posh air suspension on the mk3...suddenly we are beyond the skills of dave the panel beater who fixes mk1s in his spare time...and roger the carpenter.... suddenly....the practicalities of a mk1 look very very attractive...and the basic engineering on the running gear can be refreshed and repaired a lot easier. and its the same with diesels, class 56s onwards do not like sitting for long periods of time out of use, the electrical control cards degrade....and they are very difficult and expensive to repair... Preservation will continually evolve...the people who collected steam engine numbers are dwindling....along the personal association to steam powered transport, and it will survive for as long as they can attract enthusiasts to it....but as you point out...the next generation of enthusiasts will feel more affinity to 66s and 67s and 59s....how long they will be able to keep them in traffic for due to the evolution of engineering in them is difficult to say.... 58s and 56s...the ship has already sailed on those...if you preserve one now you will find it difficult to obtain enough spares to keep them viable in the long term.... classic locos share a number of common parts so the spares pool is still quite large....or...groups are trying engineer modern equivalent parts into them... and this is partly because BR insisted on standardisation for cost and simplicity....thats long gone with the modern types...and even the 2nd generation types...where they all had there own individual parts pools. you try swapping the modules between a 58 and 56 and you will quickly run into trouble... So we do agree, Preservation is reaching its Spitfire moment. Preservation has reached a limit which it cannot pass. Spitfires are hugely popular today, because of history, ease of maintenance and primitive construction. Most pilots today were not born when they flew… but its not affected popularity… but Vulcan, that was.. is a bridge too far, Concorde.. no chance. If mk3’s are already too late, then 59/66/67 are not worth preserving as theres nothing for them to pull… so the clock stops with units constructed before c1989, and coaches/locos before 1970. I disagree its too late for 56’s… theres nearly 20 still on the mainline !.. but it does seem futile without anything to pull. Why mk3’s ? Because mk1’s wont last forever… neither will mk2’s… and thats it… no more, mk4’s wont work, nor mk5’s. You dont need to eth a mk3, you can change the windows so you can turn it into a summer coach… but it extends the life of the dwindling fleet of mk1’s…. Failing to do it, just means you run out of road faster…because there are no more mk1’s coming… your already eating into supplies. I do recall several lines saying exactly the same about mk2’s that your saying about mk3’s back in 1987-89. As for air brakes.. if you’d said in 1989 that preserved railways would be facing door locks people would think your mad…so never say never to regulating vacuum braking.. it is afterall an obsolete system and regulators will need to find something new to regulate something to keep themselves in a job and keep safety moving forwards… the numbers of people experienced in vac braking is only ever going to decline, as is the supply of spares. I do forsee importing of rolling stock or spares from Europe and beyond at some point. Edited January 4 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 3 minutes ago, adb968008 said: I disagree its too late for 56’s… theres nearly 20 still on the mainline !.. but it does seem futile without anything to pull. As long as there is someone with enough money, then anything is possible. But when you consider the number of 56s in preservation ten years ago Vs now, you have to have deep pockets and a strong will, and a lot of big bills means those ones that were initially preserved have been scrapped or sold back into the industry. Same thing will happen with most of the uselessly preserved Pacers, although more 15x units could go to preserved lines for training, like the 153s at the Great Central. My only surprise is a number of preserved lines haven't gone the same way as scrapped stock, as we seem to have reached saturation point and rely on an ageing volunteer workforce. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4 (edited) 8 minutes ago, 298 said: As long as there is someone with enough money, then anything is possible. But when you consider the number of 56s in preservation ten years ago Vs now, you have to have deep pockets and a strong will, and a lot of big bills means those ones that were initially preserved have been scrapped or sold back into the industry. Same is true for 37/4’s…. The €$¥ to sell back into service is attractive, and theres a second chance to buy back in for preservation later. if I bought a 37/4 for £30k in 2008, and got a huge premium to sell it back i’d have done the same.. then sit back enjoy the ride and buy it back for scrap again later. The problem for 56’s is lack of preserved stock to pull… this will be the same for 59/60/66/67/68/69/70 too some day. However someone buying mk3’s today (especially the Chiltern ones) would be setting themselves up with a desirable product in the future, assuming they have the £ to see it through, I still think mk1/2’s will be off the mainline someday… preservation isnt about what looks good and works today, its about what looks good and works tomorrow. Edited January 4 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
009 micro modeller Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 16 hours ago, Northmoor said: I have been a member of or involved with about ten preservation societies and schemes over the years. Of those, I think only half really knew what they were trying to achieve; by that I mean the majority of the working members knew how what they were doing, contributed to the scheme's overall aims. The remainder were/are to a greater or lesser extent, a site where various disparate groups locate the equipment of personal interest to them under the loose common aim of "preserving transport heritage". Sadly one (which I won't name) which operates rather like this, has (after nearly 50 years) achieved a tiny fraction of its enormous potential, largely because it was managed by the wrong people - or rather the wrong type of people - without the leadership skills necessary to communicate the original vision and drive the scheme forward. I'm not claiming to have those skills myself, but when you've worked for managers and leaders, you can easily spot the difference. 5 hours ago, pheaton said: the fact is nowadays to survive reliably you need to employ professionals in certain areas...and thats when you become a defacto business.. 2 hours ago, adb968008 said: Simplistically you could say preserved railways are the results of enthusiasts who became too enthusiastic, bought their own railway and locos to play trains. They then evolved to earn a few quid towards the costs by selling tickets and souvenirs to passengers. The thing is those enthusiasts are fading out and what we are seeing is how to sustain without destroying what was created, and others are seeking to capitalise on this as a revenue opportunity. I’m currently reading Stories From Small Museums, which, as someone who both works (and previously volunteered) in the museum sector and is a railway enthusiast, I’m finding a very interesting read. The book (as part of a wider project) essentially looks at relatively small, generally volunteer-led independent museums and the way in which these were founded in much larger numbers from the 1960s onwards. There is a chapter devoted to transport museums specifically, although the railway sites in this are the sort of places we’d probably call ‘railway centres’ rather than the larger NYMR/Bluebell/Ffestiniog type of heritage lines. But the relevant point, as pointed out in the book, is that in a lot of cases the founders didn’t exactly set out to create a museum or even necessarily to have a public-facing side, but to preserve and restore locomotives and rolling stock (or buses or some other type of vehicle in the case of non-railway museums), sometimes quite loosely organised - the ‘museum’ part came later, as it was thought that it would be good to be able to securely store and protect the restored vehicles and the opportunity was then taken to open them up for public view as well. But nowadays they are organised more along the lines of a typical museum with aims and a structure to match. So is preserving the original ethos of volunteering and camaraderie more important than the more obvious ‘preservation’ function? Possibly, but it depends on how the organisation sees itself and its purpose. Some organisations are particularly good at providing volunteer opportunities and volunteering as a social activity because they put a lot of effort into volunteer recruitment, being inclusive, training people for different roles and so on. The other thing in that book chapter that is interesting to me is that, in all the museums featured, the founders seemed to have some sort of professional connection to the relevant part of the transport industry (some more tenuously than others, but nonetheless still a connection). While they weren’t (as the book points out) museum professionals with existing experience of setting up and running a museum, they had experience and knowledge of the items they were preserving, so it’s slightly different from somebody with no experience of either sector (transport or heritage) trying to set up a similar operation. In a modern context, on larger heritage railways, I think there is a need for both - people from the rail industry to understand the increasingly stringent regulatory situation and manage operations appropriately (particularly in a situation like the NYMR which involves operating on the national network itself), and people from a museum background who understand how to communicate and present heritage to the public but also how to navigate grant applications etc. Although on the last point I’m not sure (with Arts Council funding for instance) whether organisations are always embracing the overall ethos and the basis on which the funds are supposed to be awarded, or just looking to it as another potential source of funding. 2 hours ago, adb968008 said: it maybe that future rolling stock needs are dictated by importing old stock from Europe, or beyond, and adjusting platforms, because their stock and parts will outlast domestic supply for a few more decades to allow them to continue… even buffers are fading to memory for passenger stock on national rail in the UK !.. If you look at narrow gauge lines (which never had an equivalent to the mark 1 option) a few have imported stock but others have built new, sometimes as serious replicas (W&LLR Pickering stock) but elsewhere to new but heritage-inspired designs (like the WHR). The timeline (relative to when new-build NG stock started being built) is perhaps similar too as (in Great Britain at least) apart from more modern stock for tourist and miniature lines and a few workers’ carriages/manriders, I don’t think much narrow gauge passenger stock had been built since before WW2. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted January 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4 29 minutes ago, adb968008 said: Same is true for 37/4’s…. The €$¥ to sell back into service is attractive, and theres a second chance to buy back in for preservation later. if I bought a 37/4 for £30k in 2008, and got a huge premium to sell it back i’d have done the same.. then sit back enjoy the ride and buy it back for scrap again later. The problem for 56’s is lack of preserved stock to pull… this will be the same for 59/60/66/67/68/69/70 too some day. However someone buying mk3’s today (especially the Chiltern ones) would be setting themselves up with a desirable product in the future, assuming they have the £ to see it through, I still think mk1/2’s will be off the mainline someday… preservation isnt about what looks good and works today, its about what looks good and works tomorrow. Any modern diesel with conventional draw gear can pull a dual braked mk1. Of which there are quite a lot of those in preservation. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheatley Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 With regard to relevance, several friends and I have teenage children, some of whom are into trains. None of them expect to see modern(ish) rolling stock on a preserved railway, that's what they see every day and go to school/work on. They expect to see steam trains and old stuff. This is of course a completely different argument to what should be preserved at a national level where stuffed and mounted isn't a problem. 4 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted January 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4 1 hour ago, 298 said: As long as there is someone with enough money, then anything is possible. Anything is possible if you have the money, time and skills. Whether it's economically viable is a different matter. That's the difference between running something as a self-sustaining business, and doing it for the hell of it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said: It would be good if they had specialist books relating to the actual line itself, where such books actually exist. People do buy these sort of things when they’ve visited a historic site etc. and want to find out more. I’m not sure there’s always as much of a market for a more comprehensive range though. Exactly. One place that's really good at this are the visitor centres on the High peak trail in Derbyshire - they have large numbers of different books on the Cromford and High Peak for sale. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 4 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, rodent279 said: Anything is possible if you have the money, time and skills. Whether it's economically viable is a different matter. That's the difference between running something as a self-sustaining business, and doing it for the hell of it. Sadly just about every standard gauge line isn't self sustaining. Torbay is an example of one of the best, but its not a place for enthusiasts, and hasnt really ever been. Its success isnt down to being steam, but connecting to a beauty spot, and a beach and arguably should still be part of Network Rail… i’m sure a 150/2 would be fine in the off season, or start/end of day. Lakeside is another example of a self sustaining line. There are other lines which would be better sustained under Network Rail, like the Okehampton reopening… in those instances arguably the aims of early preservationists may actually be reached ! For others to be self sustaining they may need a combination of large local population/tourism visitors, manageable / complimentary competition or huge amounts of on going events, marketing and awareness messaging, all grounded on a high quality product. Edited January 4 by adb968008 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
009 micro modeller Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 2 hours ago, Wheatley said: This is of course a completely different argument to what should be preserved at a national level where stuffed and mounted isn't a problem. Exactly. In any case, more traditional static museums (as opposed to, say, Beamish, or the NYMR) don’t necessarily need to have everything fitting together to create a scene, and lend themselves to other ways of displaying items. Think of the royal train display in the NRM - nobody is suggesting that all the royal train vehicles there were contemporary with each other; they’re together because they’ve been grouped thematically, rather than by period. And the remit of the NRM is completely different because it’s supposed to show the history of railways in the UK (and to some extent globally) across all of railway history, whereas most heritage railways tend to be a bit more focused on a specific time or region (or type of railway or industry served, in the case of industrial railways). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium rab Posted January 4 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4 (edited) 6 hours ago, adb968008 said: I 6 hours ago, adb968008 said: Pretty much anything built post privatisation will be nigh on impossible to maintain and be useful long term… IT hardware failures will push restorability beyond reach… the software will be long out of support, the processors long out of production and developers unavailable… then theres complexity in managing the electronics which have their own life spans… While I agree with you on this point, I can't help wondering how many people felt the same looking at Barry scrapyard. Building new fireboxes, casting new cylinders, nah, you got to be joking!! But look what's been achieved. So, restoring failed hardware, unsupported software. A lot of the work that's been done on preserved railways is down to retired railway employees sharing their years of acquired knowledge and skill There is a new generation of techies heading towards retirement now, who knows where their acquired knowledge and will be put to use. Edited January 4 by rab 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
009 micro modeller Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 2 hours ago, adb968008 said: Sadly just about every standard gauge line isn't self sustaining. It depends what you mean by self-sustaining. Lots of museums aren’t completely self-sustaining in the purest sense. They might generate a lot of income to cover day to day costs from ticketing, retail and a few commercial events but then fund capital projects, or short-term programmes like exhibitions and time-limited outreach stuff, from grants and bequests. This is leaving aside the slightly excessive focus from some heritage sector funding bodies on short-term projects, which is probably a slightly different topic. There are also the museums that are free to enter but receive some sort of ongoing state (or occasionally private) funding, and encourage donations from visitors. Then there are a few (including one local to me) that are very small and completely volunteer-led and run and therefore have relatively low costs, so seem to be able to avoid charging for admission and cover most of their costs from donations, either from visitors or volunteers themselves. But the point is that, in the first two categories, they are attracting either the grants or ongoing funding because they are perceived to deliver some (often quite specific) public benefit. Some heritage railways do apply for grants in this way. The museums that receive ongoing state funding are generally either local authority-run (as part of a council museums service, or a trust running it on their behalf) or are national (like the British Museum or the NRM) and I can’t think of any existing extant heritage railways (in the UK at least) where this funding model has been used successfully. The third (tiny, volunteer-led) model might work for some miniature lines, but not on standard gauge because of the high costs and regulatory/safety aspects. 2 hours ago, adb968008 said: Lakeside is another example of a self sustaining line. I was under the impression that, while the operation was more commercial and tourist-focused, Lakeside still has some volunteers and a charitable structure, so slightly different from Dartmouth. Not that that necessarily changes the point about it being self-sustaining of course. Edit: incidentally, although I’ve only had the chance to visit it once, I enjoyed my visit to the Lakeside & Haverthwaite. It’s a nice (if short) trip and seems to be pretty good at what it does. Edited January 4 by 009 micro modeller 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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