Five volunteers SUSPENDED from NYMR

[jamie92208]

On 05/01/2024 at 18:21, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Set it in the 50s (or even earlier) and pretend that the original Lancaster-Morecambe-Heysham electrification had been expanded to cover the wider region.

 

Actually, on second thoughts, that idea sounds almost boringly plausible and appropriate. So perhaps you could have a few of these, scaled down a bit to UK loading gauge of course, to haul the longer distance loco-hauled trains? They’d look nice in MR Crimson Lake at least. And to really wind up erm, entertain everyone at exhibitions, don’t forget the electric-steam locomotives (modelled by randomly sticking a pantograph on converting various Hornby 0-4-0s) for use as banking locos.

The original LMH scheme was a pilot for Derby to Manchester via Matlock and Monsal dale with 80 ton Bo Bo's.  The Midland wouldn't have cared two hoots about objectors on aesthetic grounds.  Personally, having grown up in sight of the S & C I have no objection to the knitting being strung if it keeps it open as a through route and part of the national network.

 

Jamie

[pete_mcfarlane]

On 05/01/2024 at 14:28, rodent279 said:

Why not go for an Italian style tri-phase system, with 2 contact wires and 2-C-2 electric locos with water cooled rheostats? Maybe add in a few inside cylinder outside valve 2-6-0s just for good measure?

Don't forget the cab forward 4-6-0 tanks, and Franco Crosti locos with no chimneys. 

[Reorte]

46 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

The original LMH scheme was a pilot for Derby to Manchester via Matlock and Monsal dale with 80 ton Bo Bo's.  The Midland wouldn't have cared two hoots about objectors on aesthetic grounds.  Personally, having grown up in sight of the S & C I have no objection to the knitting being strung if it keeps it open as a through route and part of the national network.

 

If it ever does happen I quite strongly hope it isn't until after I'm in my grave.

 

If the Midland didn't give two hoots about aesthetics then I'm sure that, say, the goods sheds on the S&C would be rather plainer. So I think they did. Not that it would've stopped them engaging in a scheme they hoped would bring a good return, but it's mean to imply they couldn't care less.

Edited January 9 by Reorte

[jamie92208]

@Reorte Yes I was a little flippant.  The Midland did care about aesthetics, look at their lovely locos.  However they did care about running a railway efficiently.

 

To get back on topic. The conflict between original volunteers and present day management and legislations is present in most volunteer started organisations. It has certainly happened in the tramway Preservation movement.  The sheer force of personality and drive required to get projects off the ground does not fit easily into an organisation that has paid staff and has to comply with modern legislation. 

 

Jamie

[Welchester]

1 hour ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

There was a lengthy tussle between the church and the museum over ownership not only of the grave but also of the body, which the museum would very much like to exhume and place with the rest of the family as (not to put too fine a point on it) a monetisable tourist attraction, the current upshot of which is that the body is still in situ but the grave has two gravestones: the original eroded one standing upright, and a new one laid flat on the ground beneath it.

 

 

There couldn't be any question over the ownership of the grave; if it's in a churchyard it belongs to the church. Full stop. I'm not sure it's possible to own a body (apart from your own - haha), but to exhume one requires a Faculty from the Chancellor of the Diocese, which I couldn't see being issued in these circumstances.

[johnofwessex]

6 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

Many middle aged blokes don't have much spare time, for the simple reason that people are having kids much later. In the early days of the railway preservation movement by the time a man was 45 or so his kids had got married and left home. Now like as not a middle aged couple's kids are still at primary school.

 

In my case, 1x5 & 2x not yet born at age 45, my late father at that age had 3xunborn, I was an early starter

[Northmoor]

7 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

To get back on topic. The conflict between original volunteers and present day management and legislations is present in most volunteer started organisations. It has certainly happened in the tramway Preservation movement.  The sheer force of personality and drive required to get projects off the ground does not fit easily into an organisation that has paid staff and has to comply with modern legislation. 

There is a difference between the sort of people - paid staff and volunteers - required by a preservation scheme in its early years and one which has achieved much of what it originally set out to do. 

 

Some people like restoring buildings, laying track on extensions, restoring locos from scrapyard condition, or just the challenge of fund-raising to do these things and have little interest in day-to-day operations of a railway to consistent high standard, one hundred-or-so days a year.  Some people want to operate the railway that others have completed and hope it doesn't change. 

 

As an example, I believe that many of the Ffestiniog's "Deviationists" didn't stay around once the railway had reopened to Blaenau.

[PhilH]

3 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

There is a difference between the sort of people - paid staff and volunteers - required by a preservation scheme in its early years and one which has achieved much of what it originally set out to do. 

 

Some people like restoring buildings, laying track on extensions, restoring locos from scrapyard condition, or just the challenge of fund-raising to do these things and have little interest in day-to-day operations of a railway to consistent high standard, one hundred-or-so days a year.  Some people want to operate the railway that others have completed and hope it doesn't change. 

 

As an example, I believe that many of the Ffestiniog's "Deviationists" didn't stay around once the railway had reopened to Blaenau.

In my experience of decades volunteering on the MHR there is no such thing as a heritage railway that 'others have completed'.

 

There will always be projects to improve, upgrade or simply keep the infrastructure up together, more than enough to keep people with myriad interests and skills involved even if those people have no interest in the operations side of things.

[009 micro modeller]

9 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

As an example, I believe that many of the Ffestiniog's "Deviationists" didn't stay around once the railway had reopened to Blaenau.

The Deviationists are perhaps an atypical example, as I understand some of them were not from the railway enthusiast background more typical of Ffestiniog volunteers (although obviously others were), and that they instead joined specifically to help with the Deviation and weren’t involved with the initial restoration phase either. There was a documentary about the Ffestiniog that made a lot out of this point, but in some ways it’s a very good example (and perhaps a bit ahead of its time) of a heritage line managing to engage with volunteers who aren’t railway enthusiasts per se but can have some sort of interest in a specific project.

 

17 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

There is a difference between the sort of people - paid staff and volunteers - required by a preservation scheme in its early years and one which has achieved much of what it originally set out to do. 

I think this is true for a lot of organisations though, not just in this context. But there is also an element of what ‘expansion’ looks like - I can think of several heritage railways currently that are ‘expanding’ without extending their line length or significantly adding to their rolling stock fleet, because they’re improving facilities (of various kinds), increasing and diversifying their visitor numbers etc. Which is all just as important but perhaps appeals to different people.

[The Johnster]

IIRC from my Ffestiniog volunteering days, which were very much in the Deviation period, very few of them were particularly concerned with the railway at all, and kept themselves to themselves somewhat, not difficult for people ensconced in a barrack mess hut at the southern entrance to the original Moelwyn Tunnel.  In 1969 I was put in the hut on Dduallt platform selling tea, soft drinks, and sweets (and on one occasion washing a lady’s glass eye that had got locomotive soot on it!). 
 

So I had some contact with the deviants.  They were a mixed bunch from all sorts of backgrounds who were up for a different experience, physical work, being off-grid, heavy drinking (to be fair they were basically navvies, this was classic old-school railway-building), and wild parties (I know, I went to one, as an impressionable 17-year-old.  Good grief, is that how grownups behaved when the kids weren’t there to keep an eye on things?).  They were, mostly, not Society members and governed themselves by mess committee.  Colonel Campbell, of Campbell’s Platform, oversaw the blasting operations being licensed to do so, but was in no way in charge of them, and the operation was effectively a separate organisation within the FR. 
 

The end of each day in the snack hut involved tipping a wheelbarrowload of the day’s rubbish and crushed drinks cans into a Hudson end tipper, pushing it out to the end of the slowly but steadily growing embankment curving out of Dduallt station to ultimately connect with the spiral, and tipping it; I reckon I might have contributed about 0.0001mm towards the new formation in this way. 
 

I liked working at Dduallt, lovely spot and plenty time between trains to explore, but I could see why the place had had a reputation in the old days for having to replace staff every few months because the isolation got to them and they started going a bit ‘odd’…

Edited January 10 by The Johnster

[papagolfjuliet]

18 hours ago, Welchester said:

 

There couldn't be any question over the ownership of the grave; if it's in a churchyard it belongs to the church. Full stop. I'm not sure it's possible to own a body (apart from your own - haha), but to exhume one requires a Faculty from the Chancellor of the Diocese, which I couldn't see being issued in these circumstances.

 

I misspoke. The ownership of the grave remains with the church, but any memorial on that grave belongs to whoever put it there and to their heirs or, if the owner dies intestate, to that person's descendants. Only they can authorise the replacement or repair or amendment of a gravestone and only they can authorise further interments in that plot.

 

As to the exhumation of a certain well known author, the unlikelihood or obtaining such an order has not prevented the Bronte Museum from trying to get Anne out of St. Mary's Scarborough over and over again for years.

Edited January 10 by papagolfjuliet

[Welchester]

1 hour ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

I misspoke. The ownership of the grave remains with the church, but any memorial on that grave belongs to whoever put it there and to their heirs or, if the owner dies intestate, to that person's descendants. Only they can authorise the replacement or repair or amendment of a gravestone and only they can authorise further interments in that plot.

 

 

You're absolutely right with regard to memorials, but I think the decision about further interments still rests with the incumbent, not with the family or heirs of the deceased.

[TheQ]

3 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

I misspoke. The ownership of the grave remains with the church, but any memorial on that grave belongs to whoever put it there and to their heirs or, if the owner dies intestate, to that person's descendants. Only they can authorise the replacement or repair or amendment of a gravestone and only they can authorise further interments in that plot.

 

As to the exhumation of a certain well known author, the unlikelihood or obtaining such an order has not prevented the Bronte Museum from trying to get Anne out of St. Mary's Scarborough over and over again for years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Morbid_Taste_for_Bones

[Aire Head]

On 09/01/2024 at 11:39, papagolfjuliet said:

Many middle aged blokes don't have much spare time, for the simple reason that people are having kids much later. In the early days of the railway preservation movement by the time a man was 45 or so his kids had got married and left home. Now like as not a middle aged couple's kids are still at primary school.

 

Or money in this respect too. Cost of childcare is prohibitive mine costs around £1000 a month for 4 days a week and this is pretty normal. Cost of living Vs wages also means that most families are now dual income in order to get by thereby further reducing the chance of additional time to volunteer.

[john new]

On 10/01/2024 at 07:43, papagolfjuliet said:

 

I misspoke. The ownership of the grave remains with the church, but any memorial on that grave belongs to whoever put it there and to their heirs or, if the owner dies intestate, to that person's descendants. Only they can authorise the replacement or repair or amendment of a gravestone and only they can authorise further interments in that plot.

 

As to the exhumation of a certain well known author, the unlikelihood or obtaining such an order has not prevented the Bronte Museum from trying to get Anne out of St. Mary's Scarborough over and over again for years.

Fully concur, writing as a former Cemetery & Crematorium manager. The problem regarding “toppling” unsafe graves was in most cases tracing families as relatives often moved house and out of the area. The first address change we got, even when relatives cared about the grave, was after the remedial action to make it safe.

[Northmoor]

23 minutes ago, john new said:

Fully concur, writing as a former Cemetery & Crematorium manager. The problem regarding “toppling” unsafe graves was in most cases tracing families as relatives often moved house and out of the area. The first address change we got, even when relatives cared about the grave, was after the remedial action to make it safe.

My late Mum's parents were buried in the Isle of Man.  A few years ago,  despite a small sum to cover maintenance having been paid every year for almost 50 years, a relative of ours found that the graves had sunk and the headstones were clearly not maintained.  Some strongly-worded letters were exchanged.....

[RJS1977]

On 09/01/2024 at 21:33, 009 micro modeller said:

The Deviationists are perhaps an atypical example, as I understand some of them were not from the railway enthusiast background more typical of Ffestiniog volunteers (although obviously others were), and that they instead joined specifically to help with the Deviation and weren’t involved with the initial restoration phase either. There was a documentary about the Ffestiniog that made a lot out of this point, but in some ways it’s a very good example (and perhaps a bit ahead of its time) of a heritage line managing to engage with volunteers who aren’t railway enthusiasts per se but can have some sort of interest in a specific project.

 

 

Railway volunteers all have different interests, skills and abilities.

Some like doing the operational work, others prefer maintenance/restoration, be it buildings, track, or locos/rolling stock.

Still others prefer the "big projects" - creating new buildings, extending railways, etc and tend to move on when a particular project is complete.

 

Perhaps the HRA should organise a "civil engineering pool" of people who enjoy and have the skills for the bigger projects, who can be called upon to assist any heritage railway that has a "big job" on, whether that be a planned extension/development or a sudden need for "boots on the ground" by unsuspected events such as a landslide.

[TheQ]

Oops it's spreading...

https://www.derehamtimes.co.uk/news/24049936.mid-norfolk-railway-investigation-launched-allegations/

[Bucoops]

Different reasons but still not nice to read. Don't forget the mess at the East Lancs last year as well if we are including allegations of harassment etc.

[Northmoor]

I met one of the "Levisham 60" last weekend.  He's still waiting to be allowed to return to the railway.

 

This reflects very badly on a few individuals in positions of responsibility.  I'm not sure any heritage railway, even the one with the highest passenger numbers, can afford to lose 60 volunteers. 

[john new]

20 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I met one of the "Levisham 60" last weekend.  He's still waiting to be allowed to return to the railway.

 

.. snip....

So are the pair I know personally. Won't see them again now before Easter, trouble is do you ask for an update or only wait to see if they say anything about it? Was up home a couple of weeks ago though and nothing said about the NYMR.

 

 

Edited February 27 by john new

[Boris]

Most of the 60 have said they don't want to go back and a number of other volunteers have left because of the way the guys at Levisham were treated.  They've lost way more than 60 volunteers and Pricey has left the place on its knees with 20 members of paid staff being made redundant and the main approach bridge to Goathland finally at the point where its unsafe and they can't afford to fix it.

They need volunteers more than ever now but have gone the wrong way about managing them.  The thing is a good number of the people who have walked volunteer in roles that take time to train rather than simpler roles, its affecting other organisations too, the LNERCA are struggling with volunteers because there is no volunteer accommodation at Pickering any more, they closed it in favour of the old school at Stape which is a great facility but miles from anywhere. 

 

Incidentally all that BS about being unable to comment from the NYMR management was a smokescreen, North Yorkshire Police since confirmed that there was never any investigation or even a crime/complaint reported.

Edited February 27 by Boris

[Lord Flashheart]

Several of the former Levisham volunteers are now volunteering at the Yorkshire Wolds Railway, they've all been made very welcome and are already making a good input into things.

 

Rob

[jjb1970]

On 28/02/2024 at 05:35, Boris said:

 

Incidentally all that BS about being unable to comment from the NYMR management was a smokescreen, North Yorkshire Police since confirmed that there was never any investigation or even a crime/complaint reported.

 

That's interesting,  and speaks volumes about NYMR.

[Neil]

Further woes hit the railway. A shame as it was one of my favourite visits when I lived in York.