Five volunteers SUSPENDED from NYMR

[RichardT]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I do hope this thread isn't going to degenerate into the standard of communications apparently to be found on NYMR recently.

Yep. Time to hit the ignore button. I stopped reading the heritage railway blats because I was tired of half the stories being about gossip about spats and clashes (and the other half being about disputes over loco paint colours). But then it happens to your “own” railway and, to paraphrase Michael Corleone, just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in. 🫣

 

Richard

[Steven B]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Short-cutting processes was actively encouraged by some very senior managers in the 80s, especially those 'boil in the bags' who had been catapulted from graduate training into management jobs where they were moved on about every two years before they could make a serious mistake.

 

It's called gaining experience - not uncommon elsewhere; Most military officer's posts are of a two year duration before they rotate into another posting.

 

Steven B

[papagolfjuliet]

It's worth pointing out that preserved lines - I'm not keen on the word 'heritage' because as the great Gwyn Williams said it doesn't really mean anything - which have got into serious bother because of high handed and/or incompetent management can be turned around. Here's an example from today, on one of my current local lines: https://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/23932186.llangollen-railway-attraction-year-prize/

 

It's also worth noting that this is not the NYMR's first brush with 'professional' management. It happened before, in the days of Horner and Pearce (when I was volunteering), and such a mess did they make of it that the first AGM report issued by the new regime after they were ousted was entitled 'A Blueprint For Survival.' Among their other plans for a more 'professional' railway were the installation of lifting barriers at Grosmont and worst of all a planned redesign of Pickering station, commissioned from the BR(NE) architecture department, which among other things would have seen the main entrance sheeted over with plate glass and one of the large cast iron window frames in the outer walls removed to make way for a new main entrance door. Meanwhile the station cafes were running out of sausage rolls by mid-morning because the 'professionals' were too busy being 'professional' elsewhere.

Edited November 20, 2023 by papagolfjuliet

[Steven B]

16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

working in the ticket office, bar, cafe, shop, gateline, accounts, dealing with banking the revenues, santa, group and diner bookings, event organizers etc etc dont require shed, lineside or footplate access.
They have managment hierarchy but dont need safety critical training, pts etc… maybe first aid training.

 

This is somewhat disparaging to those not actively involved in operating the trains. Safety critical training goes beyond track/footplate access and is needed in many roles. Would you want to eat at a cafe/buffet where the staff don't have food hygiene training? 

 

 

Steven B

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, Steven B said:

 

This is somewhat disparaging to those not actively involved in operating the trains. Safety critical training goes beyond track/footplate access and is needed in many roles. Would you want to eat at a cafe/buffet where the staff don't have food hygiene training? 

 

 

Steven B

 

 

I need safety critical training for this thread as its becoming a pedant hazard.

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by adb968008

[Mallard60022]

12 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

I need safety critical training for this thread as its becoming a pedant hazard.

 

About time it was culled/reported. It's getting personal in some instances.

Phil

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, papagolfjuliet said:

I'm not keen on the word 'heritage' because as the great Gwyn Williams said it doesn't really mean anything

On the other hand I’m not sure ‘preserved’ is the right term because many lives weren’t preserved as such, but rebuilt to recreate what was there before (like the L&B for instance). And it is the heritage sector, Heritage Railway Association etc.

 

1 hour ago, papagolfjuliet said:

Among their other plans for a more 'professional' railway were the installation of lifting barriers at Grosmont and worst of all a planned redesign of Pickering station, commissioned from the BR(NE) architecture department, which among other things would have seen the main entrance sheeted over with plate glass and one of the large cast iron window frames in the outer walls removed to make way for a new main entrance door.

I’m not sure how these things (which I agree, are misguided) relate to the overall concept of professional management or the current situation though. And as I said before, preserved railways are unusual within the wider museums and heritage sector in the extent to which they depend on volunteers (though not the use of volunteers in itself, which most museums have in some form).

[Reorte]

4 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

On the other hand I’m not sure ‘preserved’ is the right term because many lives weren’t preserved as such, but rebuilt to recreate what was there before (like the L&B for instance). And it is the heritage sector, Heritage Railway Association etc.

 

My main objection to "preserved" is that it carries an implication that it's pretty much the same as it was <x> years ago, which is rarely the case. It works for individual features (and I can put up with a degree of rebuilding without getting too irritated at that!) like locos, even if they've had some modification, but it feels like it's too much of a stretch for the whole railway.

 

"Heritage" I think works better even though it's not an accurate representation of times past. The vagueness of the word actually helps.

[rodent279]

How about a nice German word-Ersatz?

[rab]

6 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I do hope this thread isn't going to degenerate into the standard of communications apparently to be found on NYMR recently.

There does seem to be a trend on RMWeb

that threads on controversial subjects

do themselves become controversial.

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, rodent279 said:

How about a nice German word-Ersatz?

Although doesn’t it roughly mean (at least in the way English speakers have come to use it) ‘counterfeit’ or ‘substitute’? Which I’m not sure is quite what we’re going for here.

 

(Off-topic but I do quite like the idea of a freelance German or Austrian NG layout called ‘Ersatz’ - representing a station on the fictional Ersatzbahn, of course).

 

3 hours ago, Reorte said:

 

My main objection to "preserved" is that it carries an implication that it's pretty much the same as it was <x> years ago, which is rarely the case. It works for individual features (and I can put up with a degree of rebuilding without getting too irritated at that!) like locos, even if they've had some modification, but it feels like it's too much of a stretch for the whole railway.

 

"Heritage" I think works better even though it's not an accurate representation of times past. The vagueness of the word actually helps.

Agreed, even in the case of individual locos ‘preserved’ in the sense that you might use about other kinds of museum objects might imply conserved in its as-withdrawn state, perhaps not restored to working order or modified (like some of the static quarry Hunslets I was looking at when visiting Statfold a few weeks ago, which obviously are now conserved and kept in a controlled environment but are pretty much time capsules from when they left quarry service in the 1960s. Or another example, on Mail Rail where I work the underground platforms to a large extent look like they did at closure in 2003, but at the same time there have to be alterations, not least those to do with fire safety and fire evacuation now that the previously industrial line carries passengers).

 

Even somewhere like the Talyllyn that never closed and wasn’t substantially rebuilt from a disused trackbed isn’t preserved in exactly the condition it was in when preservationists took over in the 1950s (especially the locos and stock that were brought in from elsewhere post-preservation, some of which have been very extensively modified).

[pete_mcfarlane]

There are some genuine 'preserved' railways like the Snailbeach or the Cromford and High Peak, where significant amounts of the infrastructure have been kept in (or restored to) their final working condition. But they aren't operating railways. 

[RJS1977]

Personally I would say that the VoR, the Talyllyn and the Ffestiniog all have the ability to run locomotives tha are original to the the line, pulling coaches original to the line (both looking as close as they can do to how they would have looked in pre-preservation service), along the line that they have historically worked, which is about as close to preservation as you can get. The Isle of Man railways (at least for now) also fall into that category.

[papagolfjuliet]

11 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

Personally I would say that the VoR, the Talyllyn and the Ffestiniog all have the ability to run locomotives tha are original to the the line

 

The NYMR does have one such engine, 45428, which in BR days was shedded at Neville Hill and is known to have worked over the Malton to Whitby line.  Another NYMR affiliated loco, 2253, is also a former Neville Hill engine and also worked over the Moors, and 62005 worked the Whitby Moors Railtour while still in BR capital stock.

 

There are a few other preserved locos which are known to have worked over the line: NER long boiler 0-6-0 No.1275, Class 40 No. D345, and Class 03 No. D2066 which worked the very last revenue earning BR train over what is now the NYMR - a Malton to New Bridge quarry pick up goods.

Edited November 21, 2023 by papagolfjuliet

[adb968008]

15 hours ago, rab said:

There does seem to be a trend on RMWeb

that threads on controversial subjects

do themselves become controversial.

You cant’ say that.

 

 

ooooohhh you just did.

 

 

Faceplant.

Edited November 21, 2023 by adb968008

[Oldddudders]

15 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

(Off-topic but I do quite like the idea of a freelance German or Austrian NG layout called ‘Ersatz’ - representing a station on the fictional Ersatzbahn, of course).

Set in the Ersatzgebirge, obviously. And most - all? - model mountains tend to be ersatz. 

[rab]

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

You cant’ say that.

 

 

ooooohhh you just did.

 

 

Faceplant.

One advantage of being half asleep most of the time; I can't be accused of being "woke". :)

[sir douglas]

Was talking last night to a friend who is a regular volunteer on the NYMR, the levisham team did indeed do several questionable things even bordering on breaking the law (there is more than what is reported in the media) but at the same time the lack of management that let them run wild for so long, like the class 20 incident which brought to light the failing to certify drivers. The team claimed that they own the now confiscated wagons but this is untrue and they did rent out one of the cottages which should have been free. On the other hand as a result of the suspension, they currently dont have anybody looking after Levisham.

[Stoke West]

20 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

Personally I would say that the VoR, the Talyllyn and the Ffestiniog all have the ability to run locomotives tha are original to the the line, pulling coaches original to the line (both looking as close as they can do to how they would have looked in pre-preservation service), along the line that they have historically worked, which is about as close to preservation as you can get. The Isle of Man railways (at least for now) also fall into that category.

VoR was diverted into a totally different terminus , its facilities are far more than its origins and its moved again

[RJS1977]

3 hours ago, Stoke West said:

VoR was diverted into a totally different terminus , its facilities are far more than its origins and its moved again

Similarly the top end of the FR is substantially different to how it was originally built. However sufficient of both lines remains that I think they can still count as "preserved".

[papagolfjuliet]

12 hours ago, sir douglas said:

 The team claimed that they own the now confiscated wagons but this is untrue.

 

Sorry but that's not correct. The GER box van, BR Shocvan and shock open, LNER CCT, BR Palvans and 12t van, BR lowmac, LNER 13t opens and LMS 3 plank are definitely the property of the Farwath Rolling Stock Group and the VEA is the property of the station group. They are listed as such on the stock list which is available on the NYMR website. Only the NER box van is not owned by the station group or its affiliate. If the NYMR is now saying that the confiscated (one word for it) wagons are not the property of those groups then it may wish to update its own public documentation. Oops.

 

Follow the 'Rolling Stock' link on this page for the NYMR's official stock list with details of ownership: https://www.nymr.co.uk/carriages

Edited November 22, 2023 by papagolfjuliet

[papagolfjuliet]

8 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

Similarly the top end of the FR is substantially different to how it was originally built. However sufficient of both lines remains that I think they can still count as "preserved".

 

I think it's fair to say that the Ffestiniog is a 'heritage' wasteland once you get above Tan y Bwlch, and indeed Harbour Station itself is essentially a modern station housed in some heavily modified Victorian buildings. Where the FfR does score is in its commitment to the restoration and replication of historic rolling stock.

[Trestrol]

12 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

Sorry but that's not correct. The GER box van, BR Shocvan and shock open, LNER CCT, BR Palvans and 12t van, BR lowmac, LNER 13t opens and LMS 3 plank are definitely the property of the Farwath Rolling Stock Group and the VEA is the property of the station group. They are listed as such on the stock list which is available on the NYMR website. Only the NER box van is not owned by the station group or its affiliate. If the NYMR is now saying that the confiscated (one word for it) wagons are not the property of those groups then it may wish to update its own public documentation. Oops.

 

Follow the 'Rolling Stock' link on this page for the NYMR's official stock list with details of ownership: https://www.nymr.co.uk/carriages

I wouldn't take a stock list as gospel. This was complied by a volunteer (sadly now deceased). He would probably have gained his information from the levisham volunteers not from NYMR records. Just because it's on the NYMR website it doesn't mean they compiled it.

[Oldddudders]

2 hours ago, Trestrol said:

 He would probably have gained his information from the levisham volunteers not from NYMR records. Just because it's on the NYMR website it doesn't mean they compiled it.

I know nothing of the rights and wrongs of this situation, but those two sentences bespeak an organisation that is massively dysfunctional. 

[Trestrol]

8 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I know nothing of the rights and wrongs of this situation, but those two sentences bespeak an organisation that is massively dysfunctional. 

The NYMR is not unusual in not keeping track of who owns what vehicles on its railway. Many items change hands privately without the knowledge of the parent Railway. Things that were acquired many decades ago and came to a railway with scant paper records kept. Why wouldn't a railway use a well respected volunteers stock list?