Five volunteers SUSPENDED from NYMR

[john new]

Some odd decisions made, or at least odd from my perspective, example the no intermediate destination tickets - just a flat £45 fare valid for twelve months. For a couple that is £90 in one hit just for the fare plus ancillaries like fuel and food making it well over a £100. That is a lot when many have big mortgages and the lowish incomes  of the contemporary gig economy. Add on more on top too if they are parents. The cost discourages riding on the first trip so they don't come back. I know it has deterred other members of my family from going.

 

If the NYMR is like many other organisations existing volunteers are ageing and not being replaced in the same numbers before issues and management actions like the Levisham debacle lead to lost free labour. Whichever side was right or wrong the adverse press coverage won't have aided volunteer recruitment in the short term

 

Do the galas make a profit overall after loco hire and transport fees? Seems to be a big expense to attract photographers/videographers who don't ride, and then put their films on YouTube so prospective visitors have no need to attend either.

 

Sadly interesting times for the heritage movement across the board as the NYMR isn't the only railway and Society with either financial woes and/or a drop off in membership and levels of volunteering.

 

 

Edited March 13 by john new
Typo spotted on re-reading the thread.

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, john new said:

Do the galas make a profit overall after loco hire and transport fees? Seems to be a big expense to attract photographers/videographers who don't ride, and then put their films on YouTube so prospective visitors have no need to attend either.

I have long suspected that while they do make a profit, the margins are not that great.  It is unfortunate that the railway press is so uncritical and unquestioning; they frequently print four-page photo spreads of a railway's "enormously successful" gala weekend, while a small news item on page 17 reports that the same railway is losing money hand over fist and is selling off assets to fund something that should be normal maintenance.

[009 micro modeller]

4 hours ago, john new said:

Some odd decisions made, or at least odd from my perspective, example the no intermediate destination tickets - just a flat £45 fare valid for twelve months. For a couple that is £90 in one hit just for the fare plus ancillaries like fuel and food making it well over a £100. That is a lot when many have big mortgages and the lowish incomes  of the contemporary gig economy. Add on more on top too if they are parents. The cost discourages riding on the first trip so they don't come back. I know it has deterred other members of my family from going.

I found the tickets valid for 12 months a slightly odd concept, at least as applied to a typical heritage railway like the NYMR. I have seen them in more conventional museum settings, and making the ticket an annual pass can provide a way to collect Gift Aid without actually adding an additional donation on top of the normal ticket price, provided that the person buying the ticket is a UK taxpayer and is willing to provide the relevant personal details for Gift Aid. I wonder if the NYMR is attracted to this sort of arrangement because of the Gift Aid angle. But it’s slightly different in a normal museum, in the sense that the museum is open anyway (with the fixed costs that that implies) and their isn’t then a particular cost specifically attributable to each additional individual visitor. For instance, we have annual tickets a bit like this at the Postal Museum - they do encourage people to visit again, and particularly encourage local people (especially families) to visit as they are likely to be able to return within the year, sometimes multiple times. So it works well for the museum itself and also provides a benefit to its community. However, on repeat visits visitors need to book and pay for Mail Rail again (though it’s included on the original visit), which helps to manage the capacity and cost aspect of that. But at the same time some visitors may not want another ride on their second visit anyway, preferring to use their annual ticket to just look round the museum galleries at no additional cost - the train is not the only reason to visit. This model of ticketing doesn’t seem to be directly applicable to a typical heritage railway, where even if there is a small museum or similar somewhere along the line the train ride itself is definitely the main (and in some cases the only substantial) attraction.

 

I also thought that the NYMR was experiencing capacity issues on some (usually Whitby) services at busy times (surely a better problem to have than the opposite situation of not getting enough uptake to cover costs, or so you’d think), so presumably annual ticket holders still need to book a departure time in some way even if doing so doesn’t cost them anything.

 

In terms of the flat annual fare structure I’d be interested to know what benefits (to either the NYMR itself or potential visitors) might be perceived. I can think of a few but there can also think of some caveats:

 

- The increased value for money that it represents for people (particularly if they live locally) who are likely to actually make use of their ability to revisit within 12 months. On the other hand (and perhaps a tiny bit more cynically), the NYMR would make more money from those who only visit once but now pay the higher fare - but this only works if the higher fare isn’t so high that it dissuades them from visiting at all.

 

(Personally, if I lived near to the NYMR and was able to visit regularly I’d probably regard the annual ticket as good value, apart from the need to pay the whole cost upfront - even if I only made one or two repeat visits that would make the ticket price each time equivalent to £22.50 or £15.00, which in fairness is getting more sensible given that it’s a long and interesting ride. But I don’t live near, so with the best will in the world I’d probably find it hard to fit in another visit within 12 months.)

 

- The simpler fare structure - just as some other lines sell day rovers, they seem to be selling one that is valid for a whole year. But the flip side is that it presumably makes it harder to predict how much capacity will be needed (and when) for repeat visitors.

 

- Related to the point above about local people making repeat visits, I gather that one of the good things the NYMR has been doing recently (though it’s not really related to the operational/commercial side) is more outreach, reaching a more diverse audience from the local area and the wider region (including people from low-income backgrounds). So some form of ticket specifically for local people on low incomes, enabling them to visit the railway and promoting community engagement in heritage might be a good idea, even if it didn’t directly and immediately make money. Similar arrangements have been implemented in several museums, in some form or other, and there are other heritage railways that give discounts to local residents. The NYMR annual ticket doesn’t really seem to provide this though, as the one-off cost is too high. Maybe it would be different if it could be paid in instalments, but even that doesn’t seem the best solution to this.

 

- If it is related to Gift Aid, I wonder whether it was originally hoped, or calculated, that the income from Gift Aid plus secondary spend on repeat visits would be higher overall than the income from fares (including relatively low fares for single tickets over only part of the line) under the previous system.

 

Separately, I understand from the discussion on the Nat Pres forum that the annual ticket pricing complicated things slightly by undercutting the cost of membership (which also allowed free/reduced cost repeat visits), making membership a less attractive option for some people. I’m not sure if this issue has subsequently been addressed at all.

 

But seriously, I really hope the NYMR can sort itself out and resolve the issues as it’s a lovely line and one I’ve enjoyed visiting in the past.

[Mike Bellamy]

8 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Separately, I understand from the discussion on the Nat Pres forum that the annual ticket pricing complicated things slightly by undercutting the cost of membership (which also allowed free/reduced cost repeat visits), making membership a less attractive option for some people. I’m not sure if this issue has subsequently been addressed at all.

 

Last year I went to a small railway/museum which had a gala with a visiting loco as well as their own stock being used. For £3 more than the gala ticket, I joined the Society and got free admission for the rest of the year, discount in the shop and a magazine each quarter.

.

[Nick C]

10 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I have long suspected that while they do make a profit, the margins are not that great.  It is unfortunate that the railway press is so uncritical and unquestioning; they frequently print four-page photo spreads of a railway's "enormously successful" gala weekend, while a small news item on page 17 reports that the same railway is losing money hand over fist and is selling off assets to fund something that should be normal maintenance.

The GM of the Spa Valley has posted some fairly candid discussions on cashflow over on National Preservation - the basic gist being that their last gala made a small profit, but the various kid's tv-show-branded weekends make quite a bit more, and normal running days can often result in a small loss. It seems to be the dining trains and other 'specials' that make the best money.

[papagolfjuliet]

Unless the entire senior management team is removed and soon - which has happened before when another group of Big I Ams ran the railway into the ground in the 90s - I doubt whether the NYMR will last much longer. I honestly think it's too late this time. I have loved that line since I was a toddler and I will never, ever forgive Price and Bailey and Strangeways et al for what they have done to it.

 

The sight of John Bailey lecturing L&B members on good governance over on Nat Pres when his crackbrained management philosophy has destroyed the line for which he is responsible makes me sick into my own scorn. Sixty years of work by thousands of people, all to create a cyclepath.

Edited March 14 by papagolfjuliet

[papagolfjuliet]

And now they're handing round the begging bowl again because they've spent so much money on themselves and on their pointless and offensive rebranding exercise that they can't even afford to cover what should be core competencies such as keeping the access to their most popular station open. 

 

https://www.darlingtonandstocktontimes.co.uk/news/24183959.bid-save-harry-potter-bridge-goathland-station/

[Brian Indge]

14 hours ago, john new said:

Some odd decisions made, or at least odd from my perspective, example the no intermediate destination tickets - just a flat £45 fare valid for twelve months.

 

 

 

 

Sadly, this has gone up to £49.50 for this year making it very expensive if you can only visit once a year, especially for those on fixed incomes such as Senior Citizens.

[russ p]

That price is ridiculous.  As a teenager I worked in the booking offices at Grosmont and Goathland tickets between the two were very popular as it was just right for families to give kids a ride on a steam train . We sold quite a few singles for people who wanted to walk in one direction and use the railway purely as a mode of transport 

[papagolfjuliet]

12 minutes ago, russ p said:

That price is ridiculous.  As a teenager I worked in the booking offices at Grosmont and Goathland tickets between the two were very popular as it was just right for families to give kids a ride on a steam train . We sold quite a few singles for people who wanted to walk in one direction and use the railway purely as a mode of transport 

 

It's ridiculous in another way too: that's £45 for an entire year, which means seats on trains are pretty well being given away to anybody who can afford regular repeat visits while casual walk up visitors are being priced out. So the seats which are filled aren't being paid for. You'd think they were actively trying to shut the place down.

[pete_mcfarlane]

10 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I found the tickets valid for 12 months a slightly odd concept, at least as applied to a typical heritage railway like the NYMR. I have seen them in more conventional museum settings...

The only other Heritage railway type place I've encountered it is the Tramway museum at Crich, although it makes more sense for them as their model is for people to have multiple short tram trips, look round the museum, and then use the pub and cafe. That's something that can stand repeat visits. 

 

I suspect there might be a bit of  "we did it this way in my previous job so it must work everywhere" going on with the NYMR adopting this. 

[papagolfjuliet]

From the YP article: "It was stated by the accountants that trustee and finance director Garry Mumford’s consultancy firm, Insight Associates Ltd, has received over £6,600 in fees from the railway, and almost £93,000 the previous year."

 

Righto.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

17 hours ago, john new said:

Some odd decisions made, or at least odd from my perspective, example the no intermediate destination tickets - just a flat £45 fare valid for twelve months. For a couple that is £90 in one hit just for the fare plus ancillaries like fuel and food making it well over a £100.

Where's this information from? The NYMR website mentions short journey returns on the Daily Train Service page: https://www.nymr.co.uk/pages/category/book-tickets

 

I find it a little curious that there is no mention of short journey singles, since I would have expected some demand for them from walkers and people travelling to/from holiday accommodation. Perhaps they don't do singles, but they certainly do short journey returns for £13.50, so your "well over £100" might be a little over £40.

 

All children travel free (there appears to be no limit to the number of children each adult can take - but there does need to be an adult "supervisor", it seems), making it quite reasonable for families.

[john new]

5 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Where's this information from? The NYMR website mentions short journey returns on the Daily Train Service page: https://www.nymr.co.uk/pages/category/book-tickets

 

I find it a little curious that there is no mention of short journey singles, since I would have expected some demand for them from walkers and people travelling to/from holiday accommodation. Perhaps they don't do singles, but they certainly do short journey returns for £13.50, so your "well over £100" might be a little over £40.

 

All children travel free (there appears to be no limit to the number of children each adult can take - but there does need to be an adult "supervisor", it seems), making it quite reasonable for families.

Either (1) Maybe they have updated the policy since my family last visited as group for my wife's birthday trip last summer or (2) we were given false or more likely misleading information. That was what both my married daughters were told last year at the booking office. Not relevant for my wife and myself as we are life members. 

[Steamport Southport]

18 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Where's this information from? The NYMR website mentions short journey returns on the Daily Train Service page: https://www.nymr.co.uk/pages/category/book-tickets

 

I find it a little curious that there is no mention of short journey singles, since I would have expected some demand for them from walkers and people travelling to/from holiday accommodation. Perhaps they don't do singles, but they certainly do short journey returns for £13.50, so your "well over £100" might be a little over £40.

 

All children travel free (there appears to be no limit to the number of children each adult can take - but there does need to be an adult "supervisor", it seems), making it quite reasonable for families.

 

Correct. £13.50 return is cheap as chips even for a short journey.

 

Have those complaining about prices been on a real train recently? Maybe worth trying to buy a ticket for the same distance on a train that isn't part of a local network in a major city (subsidised by the taxpayer) and seeing how much it costs.

 

It's something like £20 for me just to go to Manchester without any steam trains in sight and the chances of getting a seat or access to a toilet is virtually nil. That's if the train even turns up.

 

 

Jason

[009 micro modeller]

4 hours ago, Mike Bellamy said:

 

Last year I went to a small railway/museum which had a gala with a visiting loco as well as their own stock being used. For £3 more than the gala ticket, I joined the Society and got free admission for the rest of the year, discount in the shop and a magazine each quarter.

.

Did that include admission on gala/event days? In any case I thought the issue being raised on Nat Pres was that some people had joined as members in order to get free/reduced repeat visits and weren’t sure if the extra cost of membership over the NYMR annual tickets was worth it for the other benefits involved (unless they joined as a member more altruistically to support the railway of course). I’ll need to find a link to the relevant page.

 

3 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

The sight of John Bailey lecturing L&B members on good governance over on Nat Pres

Without wanting to unnecessarily get too involved in any mudslinging, does he post as lineisclear? I think I know the posts you mean.

 

3 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

pointless and offensive rebranding exercise

I might have missed this but would be interested to see.

 

3 hours ago, russ p said:

We sold quite a few singles for people who wanted to walk in one direction and use the railway purely as a mode of transport 

I enjoyed a trip like that in 2021, mountain-biking one way and train back.

 

2 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

It's ridiculous in another way too: that's £45 for an entire year, which means seats on trains are pretty well being given away to anybody who can afford regular repeat visits while casual walk up visitors are being priced out. So the seats which are filled aren't being paid for.

That’s what I was getting at in my previous post - it doesn’t seem a great way of managing capacity. If they’d done it as a way to encourage local people to engage with the railway more regularly (subsidised by tourists who only visit once) then that seems fair enough but it’s probably not the best way to encourage such engagement; the models seen elsewhere of reduced fares for people living in certain local postcodes or having cheap days specifically targeted at local people would seem a more obvious solution.

 

30 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Where's this information from? The NYMR website mentions short journey returns on the Daily Train Service page: https://www.nymr.co.uk/pages/category/book-tickets

 

I find it a little curious that there is no mention of short journey singles, since I would have expected some demand for them from walkers and people travelling to/from holiday accommodation. Perhaps they don't do singles, but they certainly do short journey returns for £13.50, so your "well over £100" might be a little over £40.

 

All children travel free (there appears to be no limit to the number of children each adult can take - but there does need to be an adult "supervisor", it seems), making it quite reasonable for families.

I would have thought that it would be easier to manage capacity constraints (especially to Whitby) if people were booked on specific trains. I wonder how much capacity is left for short journey tickets though if they’re walk-up only.

 

2 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

The only other Heritage railway type place I've encountered it is the Tramway museum at Crich, although it makes more sense for them as their model is for people to have multiple short tram trips, look round the museum, and then use the pub and cafe. That's something that can stand repeat visits. 

 

I suspect there might be a bit of  "we did it this way in my previous job so it must work everywhere" going on with the NYMR adopting this. 

Crich again is a museum so there are other things to do besides the trams. Unlike my Mail Rail example they obviously don’t foresee capacity issues created by people riding the trams more than once on busy days - presumably they’d limit the number of journeys if this was an issue.

 

The other one is the Yorkshire Museum of Farming, where the basic DVLR train ride (not cab rides etc.) is free with museum admission as many times as you want to ride. I’m not sure what (if any) funding agreement there is around this.

[papagolfjuliet]

40 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Without wanting to unnecessarily get too involved in any mudslinging, does he post as lineisclear? I think I know the posts you mean.

 

 

Yes.

 

As to the rebranding, I am referring to the new look Moors Line which in addition to the cost of rebranding costs more to produce and distribute, and is effectively nothing more than a series of articles on how brilliant the management team are with the boring stuff about trains relegated to a few paragraphs at the back. 

Edited March 14 by papagolfjuliet

[Boris]

papagolfjuliet

 

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with every post there mate.

 

The situation with the station approach bridge at Goathland isn't new, its been dragging on for years but its very telling that is has been allowed to deteriorate to the point where its unsafe for traffic, a civil engineer friend did point out thought that is the bridge isn't safe for cars then it is questionable about it supporting a crowd getting on and off a train which is worrying.  Let's not forge the state of the track in Grosmont tunnel which is the original BR stuff and the engineer won't replace it because he is concerned about the tunnel collapsing, you can also put your hand through the tunnel lining at Grosmont in places.

 

Pricey basically cleared out the Trust Board several years ago of the folks who actually ran it for years and knew there stuff and replaced most of them with "local business minded people" and look how that turned out!

 

Your can't just blame John Bailey for all this, Andrew Scott carries just as much, if not more blame.  Bearing in mind that not that long ago an interesting amount of money was devoted to a series of ideas that included redoubling Goathland to Levisham, which whilst would have been amazing to a handful of enthusiasts but of dubious advantage to the core business.

 

The whole ticket thing has been bouncing around for ages, the prebooking thing was massively unpopular and most of the booking clerks walked out because of customer abuse.  It was replaced with the same scheme but slightly different, I mean the logic is guaranteed weather proof income, but it absolutely screws people who for example want a single to walk back.

[Neil]

2 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

From the YP article: "It was stated by the accountants that trustee and finance director Garry Mumford’s consultancy firm, Insight Associates Ltd, has received over £6,600 in fees from the railway, and almost £93,000 the previous year."

 

Righto.

 

Yep, that was the standout bit for me too.

[Boris]

12 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

Yep, that was the standout bit for me too.

Interestingly enough they are financial advisors with a flashy website about helping you grow your business - that worked out well.

 

They are also using an agency/consultant to find a new CEO/GM/fall guy, the last time the Moors got into financial troubles a large part of the recovery package was about reducing the use of consultants! 

 

The moors made 20 staff members redundant recently and a lot of them have been there for years, the amount of experience and knowledge they have just shovelled out the door is criminal.

[papagolfjuliet]

24 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

 

Pricey basically cleared out the Trust Board several years ago of the folks who actually ran it for years and knew there stuff and replaced most of them with "local business minded people" and look how that turned out!

 

 

Before binning the new sales prospectus - sorry, Moors Line - I glanced at the Price interview and noted the bit where he said "We are the envy of every other heritage railway" and, er, no. The envy of the Teifi Valley and the West Somerset, maybe.

[russ p]

30 minutes ago, Boris said:

papagolfjuliet

 

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with every post there mate.

 

The situation with the station approach bridge at Goathland isn't new, its been dragging on for years but its very telling that is has been allowed to deteriorate to the point where its unsafe for traffic, a civil engineer friend did point out thought that is the bridge isn't safe for cars then it is questionable about it supporting a crowd getting on and off a train which is worrying.  Let's not forge the state of the track in Grosmont tunnel which is the original BR stuff and the engineer won't replace it because he is concerned about the tunnel collapsing, you can also put your hand through the tunnel lining at Grosmont in places.

 

Pricey basically cleared out the Trust Board several years ago of the folks who actually ran it for years and knew there stuff and replaced most of them with "local business minded people" and look how that turned out!

 

Your can't just blame John Bailey for all this, Andrew Scott carries just as much, if not more blame.  Bearing in mind that not that long ago an interesting amount of money was devoted to a series of ideas that included redoubling Goathland to Levisham, which whilst would have been amazing to a handful of enthusiasts but of dubious advantage to the core business.

 

The whole ticket thing has been bouncing around for ages, the prebooking thing was massively unpopular and most of the booking clerks walked out because of customer abuse.  It was replaced with the same scheme but slightly different, I mean the logic is guaranteed weather proof income, but it absolutely screws people who for example want a single to walk back.

 

I didn't realise there was a problem with the tunnel but I'm pretty sure there some quite shallow mine workings under it or very close to it. There is a adit near the footbridge over the river

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

I didn't realise there was a problem with the tunnel but I'm pretty sure there some quite shallow mine workings under it or very close to it. There is a adit near the footbridge over the river

I wouldn't be surprised at all, they were within 9 feet of the surface under the running line at one point at the north end of the station

[papagolfjuliet]

7 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

I didn't realise there was a problem with the tunnel but I'm pretty sure there some quite shallow mine workings under it or very close to it. There is a adit near the footbridge over the river

 

All of Grosmont village is seriously undermined. Estate agents tend not to mention that fact (just as they don't mention the network of Napoleonic and WW2 tunnels which undermine most of the Medway Towns, or the fact that the the pretty bit of Robin Hood's Bay is built on top of boulder clay which could go walkies any second.)

Edited March 14 by papagolfjuliet

[russ p]

1 minute ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

All of Grosmont village is seriously undermined. Estate agents tend not to mention that fact. 

 

Those early mines aren't very deep at all any collapse could do some serious surface damage 

There are quite a few of the round Grosmont too

Infact it was during the construction of the original tunnel that ironstone was discovered