Five volunteers SUSPENDED from NYMR

[adb968008]

19 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

not sure i agree to the same degree. I agree these roles are not safety-crtitical, but for platform staff, PTS and the knowledge of what to do in an emergency is essential. At some point, someone will drop their phone (or something much worse) onto the track or will go tresspassing. station staff will need to deal with that in accordance with the rules.

Platform staff and ticket office are not the same thing.

 

same for santa, diner, events organisers etc…

 

Commercial and operations are very different disciplines.

its like saying the driver is going to sell you fridge magnets as well, so needs to learn how to cash up end of day and handle a credit card machine, and sign off the cash bags to a security company, tag and mark it before he drops the fire.

 

ice cream sellers arent safety critical.

 

I’m referring to back office roles, which probably require many more resources than operations and are ultimately critical but unsung roles to a railway, but most dont see them as volunteers that even exist… to use a fraggle rock terminology.. they are just “doozers”…, taken for granted by other departments…i’m seeing that on here too… but they are still volunteers.

Edited November 19, 2023 by adb968008

[PhilH]

29 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

100%…spot on.

 

working in the ticket office, bar, cafe, shop, gateline, accounts, dealing with banking the revenues, santa, group and diner bookings, event organizers etc etc dont require shed, lineside or footplate access.
They have managment hierarchy but dont need safety critical training, pts etc… maybe first aid training.

 

Arguably commercial roles are far more important to the railway than operations, but most volunteers focus on playing trains, when its the ticket office, shop and restaurant that actually earn the revenue…they arnt as glamourous... but without them, footplate men wont be able to play trains and espouse how important and critical their jobs are because there wouldnt be a railway to do it on…

 

They have a very different skillset and discipline, including trust and confidence.

 

Not one post from the harp twangers in this thread has recognised this valuable and indispensible resource yet.

 

which rounds us nicely to Levisham… and what is ultimately a mundane job of keeping the place clean, tidy, point of presence etc.

 

You really have got an axe to grind haven’t you?

[adb968008]

25 minutes ago, PhilH said:

You really have got an axe to grind haven’t you?

No,

 

i just recognise theres much more to a preserved railway than volunteering in a role that involves some capacity on or next to rolling wheels.

I’m sorry you disagree with me, or cannot interpret  that from my post, but I wouldnt blame you if you didnt as I get the feeling many preserved line volunteers dont see beyond the platform either.

 

But i return to the point i’m making.. not every role is safety critical, but in many cases much more responsible and accountable, for different reasons.
 

Going full circle to what started this little tetatete was statements along the lines of some volunteers are not safe and should be denied.. I think just because someone isnt footplate quality doesnt mean they cannot work in a different role… if that person was a clumsy, wreckless and forgetful individual being on the track might not be a good place, but if his day job was an accountant he may be spot on for handling the numbers, why turn him away for want of not getting a pts ?

Edited November 19, 2023 by adb968008

[PhilH]

15 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

No,

 

i just recognise theres much more to a preserved railway than volunteering in a role that involves some capacity on or next to rolling wheels.

I’m sorry you disagree with me, or cannot interpret  that from my post, but I wouldnt blame you if you didnt as I get the feeling many preserved line volunteers dont see beyond the platform either.

 

But i return to the point i’m making.. not every role is safety critical, but in many cases much more responsible and accountable, for different reasons.
 

 

I don’t quite see where anybody is disagreeing with you. Every volunteer is vital to a railways success, where have I said that one is more important than another?

 

Tbh I’m not now interested in continuing this chat, it’s got right away from the OP so if you want to carry on fill your boots as my old granny used to say.

[rodent279]

22 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

No,

 

i just recognise theres much more to a preserved railway than volunteering in a role that involves some capacity on or next to rolling wheels.

I’m sorry you disagree with me, or cannot interpret  that from my post, but I wouldnt blame you if you didnt as I get the feeling many preserved line volunteers dont see beyond the platform either.

 

But i return to the point i’m making.. not every role is safety critical, but in many cases much more responsible and accountable, for different reasons.
 

Going full circle to what started this little tetatete was statements along the lines of some volunteers are not safe and should be denied.. I think just because someone isnt footplate quality doesnt mean they cannot work in a different role… if that person was a clumsy, wreckless and forgetful individual being on the track might not be a good place, but if his day job was an accountant he may be spot on for handling the numbers, why turn him away for want of not getting a pts ?

I think you're right. You've only got to look at places like the NRM-they get a huge amount of revenue from gift shops and cafes.

I'm sure it's the same with heritage railways-it would not surprise me if the various shops and cafes at the typical heritage railway site take more money combined than the ticket offices do in ticket sales.

[Tom Burnham]

I can't comment on the NYMR situation, having visited 3 times over the last 50 years, but from general experience, "armchair" members do have their uses.  Perhaps less so in the case of enthusiasts who live 200 miles away, but having a sympathetic body of residents - perhaps only vaguely interested in railways as such - in the local area can be very useful in terms of relations with public bodies, grant making trusts and the like.

It's also very important how all staff, be they paid or volunteers, interact with the paying public.  Even when you're picking up litter you're likely to be asked when the next train is, where the loos are or whether there's a café.  Staff treating passengers/visitors in a friendly and helpful way will certainly be reflected in repeat business and in reviews on TripAdvisor and the like which we all check nowadays. 

[Railpassion]

I think the NYMR has had a good season. 

Trains were very well filled, even on the last day, when I travelled.

Sadly, the trolley and buffet were mostly absent or closed. Other lines do this much better. 

A pressure point is the ticket office at Pickering, a branch line set up with two windows, but having to issue several hundred tickets in a short space of time, rather like Orpington on renewal day a few decades ago. 

 

Everywhere is much tidier and better presented than ever before. 

 

 

 

[jjb1970]

These arguments have a tendency to become polarized between extremes (awkward volunteers running amok and refusing to be managed etc etc vs. overbearing arrogant managers treating volunteers with contempt etc), I'm sure there are people matching these stereotypes but I suspect that most managers and volunteers have a reasonable or good relationship most of the time and that stress is more a result of the greater professionalism necessary for legal compliance (training, competency, maintaining and auditing safe systems of work etc) and to manage funds, fundraising etc. Some of these societies may have started out as a group of passionate volunteers just donating their time and skill, coalescing around early leaders and a working locomotive or railway emerging but it's hard to maintain that model as an organization grows (or if it wants to grow).

 

As others have said, managing volunteers has challenges of its own. Bad managers in regular organizations have an easier job because many of those they manage need the income which comes from their employment and can't afford to just walk out or risk being fired if they let rip at a manager. Neither do they want to risk a smell following them by just walking out even if they're confident of getting another job (many trades and professions are small worlds where word gets around, even if it is recognized that a manager is a pillock few want someone who'll just walk out rather than work their notice). In a volunteer organization, people can just walk out, and while people may put up with a manager they hate if well enough paid or if they have little alternative are unlikely to tolerate it as a volunteer.

 

That said, my experience of clubs and societies in general is that some can be very cliquey, and set in their ways or unwelcoming of new people. Of course it's not all, but they are out there. I was in a model railway club a bit like that once, the members were always whinging about club finances and not getting more members yet didn't want to face the reality that there were perfectly explicable and rational reasons why people visited once or twice and never went back. I kept membership as it was somewhere to run models and some of the members were splendid but I also completely understood why they struggled to attract members.

[OnTheBranchline]

On 17/11/2023 at 13:30, woodenhead said:

You've only got to look at many threads on here about 'Health and Safety gone mad' to know a lot of older people find it hard to relate to changes in the workplace and general life because it was perfectly acceptable when they were younger to do things people would now count as a risk and/or dangerous.

 

In my own job I've had to unlearn 20 years of bad best practice recently and no longer do I have one user account that is my main logon and also admin to a number of servers.  Does it make my job harder, yes, does it make our systems more secure, certainly, should I change practice, without a doubt I should.

 

You mean you don't use the same password for everything?

[jjb1970]

Something I would say is that a couple of weeks ago in Geneva I saw quite a bit of work being done with lines still operating and with people walking the line solo etc. And the lines through Geneva are very busy. It'd be interesting to compare safety statistics and whether the Swiss safe system of work reaches the same end point of a very safe railway in a different way.

[kevinlms]

22 hours ago, ikcdab said:

To be honest, this is nonsense. If an organisation isn't covering it's membership costs, then they need to address that, not blame the member. I recently became a member of the GWSR.  I have no plans to volunteer there. Are you saying I should feel guilty and resign immediately?

 

 

I didn't say any such thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kevinlms]

On 18/11/2023 at 23:00, TheSignalEngineer said:

When we first had a small network at our office a certain amount of private use space was allowed to encourage people to become familiar with the system, BUT on the strict condition that any incoming disk was scanned by the IT man before being inserted in your machine.

A friend of mine used to do some work a for charitable organisation, which had some premises in a medical facility IIRC. They allowed them to use their computer network and they wanted some software to maintain their library.

They got permission to install it on their network and did so.

However, at least twice the IT team came along and deleted it because it wasn't meant to be on their system! Fortunately, she had back ups and so it was reinstalled.

Someone else took over and she carefully explained the system. 3 years later, the organisation came back to her and asked if she could take over the job again. That's when she found out that this guy, had abandoned the computer database and was using a card index!

 

She did have her back ups from 3 years prior and my advice was to buy a 2nd hand laptop, and forget the network, as they simply couldn't be trusted.

 

Sadly, the project came to nothing, as she was murdered by her son!

[kevinlms]

23 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Your assuming every volunteer wants to be on the footplate.

 

I would have a hard time believing there isnt a role for anyone to be a volunteer, even if its litter picking, a charity box or just giving information.

There are many willing to do unglamorous roles, but those roles also are overlooked but make a big difference to the image.

 

Quite so, people often have good reasons for themselves to volunteer to do tasks that are relatively simple. One reason they might of had a stressful job previously and now want to contribute, but without stress.

[kevinlms]

23 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Wrong discussion.  You don't charge members more. 

You give perks to working members, such as free travel on the line, free catering on the days they're they're working.

So now you have determined what our members get and what they don't? You must be a mind reader!

 

Congratulations.

[kevinlms]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 and handle a credit card machine,

My friend used to help me in my club ticket box and we worked well as a team. But unfortunately he gave it away, BECAUSE he couldn't for the life of him work the EFTPOS machine - a simple one that just need the price entered. I tried to convince him to stay, as we always have 2 people there anyway, but he is really too embarassed.

 

Such a shame, because he had no problem with the tickets and handling cash (he's an ex-tram conductor!), but the EFTPOS beat him. We can't do without it now, as 75% of the take is electronic payment - that is in 4 years, since we first made EFTPOS available.

[009 micro modeller]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Arguably commercial roles are far more important to the railway than operations, but most volunteers focus on playing trains, when its the ticket office, shop and restaurant that actually earn the revenue…they arnt as glamourous... but without them, footplate men wont be able to play trains and espouse how important and critical their jobs are because there wouldnt be a railway to do it on…

On the other hand of course, if there was no operational railway there would be nothing to sell tickets for. But the point is that in any museum there are a vast number of roles - front of house staff (who ideally should know how to talk to visitors about the history of the site and what they can see, not just sell tickets), duty manager, collections/archives, estates and maintenance, education, events, exhibitions, accountants, cleaners etc. etc., and in theory a heritage railway could have most of these in addition to all the roles needed on an operational railway.

[papagolfjuliet]

It is worth pointing out that the Levisham station group did not merely sell tickets and crisps. They also maintained the station and its environs including trackside drainage and fencing, rebuilt the station ticket office and waiting room from a condition in which it was structurally unsound to one in which it won a HRA award, reconstucted the former Scarborough Gallows Close goods yard weighbridge building, restored a rake of vintage wagons (which has now been towed to Pickering and dumped there by the management), was instrumental in the restoration of NER TO No.945Y, and much more. They weren't just a lot of gold braid wallahs.

[APOLLO]

Just to say it's not all bad on the preserved scene.

 

Last year I had a superb and enjoyable day out to the East Lancs Railway diesel gala day. My GMPTE old farts pass got me there free via Train to Manchester Vic & Tram to Bury, arriving at 9.30am. I stayed till around 5pm constantly to-ing and fro-ing behind a selection of diesels. At first I thought the £34 ticket a little steep, but at the end of the day I realised it WAS value for money. The staff were wonderful, all of them, trains clean, virtually full and on time. Couldn't get there this year but will next.

 

THAT's how to run a railway. (well of course, it's in Lancashire !!).

 

Brit15

[RichardT]

59 minutes ago, papagolfjuliet said:

It is worth pointing out that the Levisham station group did not merely sell tickets and crisps. They also maintained the station and its environs including trackside drainage and fencing, rebuilt the station ticket office and waiting room from a condition in which it was structurally unsound to one in which it won a HRA award, reconstucted the former Scarborough Gallows Close goods yard weighbridge building, restored a rake of vintage wagons (which has now been towed to Pickering and dumped there by the management), was instrumental in the restoration of NER TO No.945Y, and much more. They weren't just a lot of gold braid wallahs.

Hmm.  I’m afraid that from this, and your previous post gleefully linking to the suspiciously-timed TripAdvisor slagging off, I suspect that you are not a disinterested party.

 

Full disclosure - I’m a life member of the NYMR, but not a volunteer and I don’t know any of the people involved at Levisham, not even their names.  I’m fully aware of the good work that the station groups do in maintenance and presentation, and Levisham on the surface looks like a little gem.  

 

But quite obviously something has gone seriously wrong there, much more so than the usual grumbles. As the few snippets from the report leaked to the press make clear the NYMR say that there are faults on both sides.  There is a certain degree of paranoia amongst some types of long-standing, socially-conservative and, date I say it, cliquey volunteers about “evil professional managers”, who they think are constantly out to get them when, frankly, the paid staff have more than enough to do without getting involved in internal group dynamics.
 

The problem then is that the managers’ inclination to keep at a distance because there are other jobs to deal with, and not get involved or regularly communicate, can allow problems to fester, until breaches of serious legal responsibilities become apparent at which point the managers have to intervene but it looks like they are coming down like a ton of bricks from a clear blue sky and feelings get badly hurt.  (Speaking from an experience in a local authority heritage context.)

 

A red flag for me was the remark that the station group had been led by the *same* volunteer leader for *forty* years.  That may strike some as commendable long-service, but in the context of what should be a hobby pastime on a railway where there are so many other jobs to do at a variety of locations I’d be very worried that that indicates the danger of a “law unto themselves” mentality developing.

 

As others have pointed out, work culture and the railway safety environment has changed massively in forty years (I shudder at some of the things I was allowed to do unsupervised at LT in the early 1990s) and if that culture change has been allowed to bypass the Levisham group until it suddenly had to catch up then there’s going to be an explosion.

 

Finally, it’s so often the case in these disciplinary situations, especially involving volunteers, that the aggrieved party feels free immediately to leak documents, make anonymous online comments and start rumours about what is going on whilst the disciplining side is constrained by the law, by good practice and by a duty of care to staff paid or unpaid from making any comment about the process or the problem, or only in the blandest terms, which gives the impression of something to hide.

 

RichardT 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by RichardT
Missed out a sentence

[Reorte]

33 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Just to say it's not all bad on the preserved scene.

 

Last year I had a superb and enjoyable day out to the East Lancs Railway diesel gala day. My GMPTE old farts pass got me there free via Train to Manchester Vic & Tram to Bury, arriving at 9.30am. I stayed till around 5pm constantly to-ing and fro-ing behind a selection of diesels. At first I thought the £34 ticket a little steep, but at the end of the day I realised it WAS value for money. The staff were wonderful, all of them, trains clean, virtually full and on time. Couldn't get there this year but will next.

 

THAT's how to run a railway. (well of course, it's in Lancashire !!).

It's been a while since I've been to the East Lancs but I've always enjoyed it, and I find it an interestingly different environment to most, Bury Bolton Street being a very urban station rather than the usual rural ones. It's changed since I was last there though, must go along to see the complete canopy some day.

[RichardT]

Not sure I’d be citing the ELR as an example of how great things are in a discussion about management & treatment of volunteers!

 

(If you don’t know what I’m talking about then look at the preservation forums - essentially discrimination against a woman volunteer. I suppose I’d better put “allegedly” here as I’m not sure where the dispute has ended up.)

 

RT

[papagolfjuliet]

53 minutes ago, RichardT said:

Hmm.  I’m afraid that from this, and your previous post gleefully linking to the suspiciously-timed TripAdvisor slagging off, I suspect that you are not a disinterested party.

 

I too am a life member and that is as far as it goes. I live in North Wales, haven't been near the NYMR in five years, haven't volunteered there since the early 90s when I moved first to Scotland and then to China and then to Kent, know only one member of the Levisham Station Group and then only dimly and don't even like him very much, have never volunteered at Levisham, and am about as socially conservative as Roy Jenkins. And there was nothing 'gleeful' about my link to that review. I am extremely upset about what has happened on a line I have always loved and while I am aware that there are faults on both sides the tone of the leaks from the NYMR has been absurd. A vandalised leaflet? Shocked, yes shocked am I. Shocked, I say. These events are sadly typical of a rash of similar instances at many lines over recent years -  West Somerset, East Lancs, Teifi Valley, Strathspey, Peak Rail, Lynton & Barnstaple, the list goes on and on - and each time volunteers and volunteer groups find themselves on the losing side of unnecessarily escalated rows with management types who are full of the letter of 'professionalism' and empty of its spirit.

 

I'd also point out that the outgoing NYMR GM - sorry, CEO - was not noted for his habit of remaining aloof. To his credit he was and is a great exponent of management by walking around so if we're doing 'faults on both sides' it is a little unfair to suggest that he did not know what was going on - vandalised leaflet and all - until it was too late to do anything but go nuclear.

 

But other than that your analysis of me and my views is spot on. Grats.

Edited November 20, 2023 by papagolfjuliet

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, RichardT said:

 

As others have pointed out, work culture and the railway safety environment has changed massively in forty years (I shudder at some of the things I was allowed to do unsupervised at LT in the early 1990s)

As with BR back pre-Clapham. (I shudder to think of what today's world would make of things we did in the 1960s. )

 

Short-cutting processes was actively encouraged by some very senior managers in the 80s, especially those 'boil in the bags' who had been catapulted from graduate training into management jobs where they were moved on about every two years before they could make a serious mistake.

Shortly after Clapham there were some nasty on-track fatal accidents involving S&T staff in particular which led to some of the changes in track safety rules. Some of my projects were used as trials for new procedures in working hours, installation methods and commissioning procedures. We had even started some pre-Clapham as we could see the holes in what was being dictated by the people at the top.

In track safety We were still working to what was done in the days when 75% of trains were unfitted freights and applying it to a 100mph railway. I trialled fenced Green Zone working c1989 and negotiated protective temporary speed restrictions when working adjacent to open lines, very much in line with what is done nowadays on motorways.

Edited November 20, 2023 by TheSignalEngineer

[Michael Hodgson]

I do hope this thread isn't going to degenerate into the standard of communications apparently to be found on NYMR recently.

[RichardT]

3 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

I too am a life member and that is as far as it goes. I live in North Wales, haven't been near the NYMR in five years, haven't volunteered there since the early 90s when I moved first to Scotland and then to China and then to Kent, know only one member of the Levisham Station Group and then only dimly and don't even like him very much, have never volunteered at Levisham, and am about as socially conservative as Roy Jenkins. And there was nothing 'gleeful' about my link to that review. I am extremely upset about what has happened on a line I have always loved and while I am aware that there are faults on both sides the tone of the leaks from the NYMR has been absurd. A vandalised leaflet? Shocked, yes shocked am I. Shocked, I say. These events are sadly typical of a rash of similar instances at many lines over recent years -  West Somerset, East Lancs, Teifi Valley, Strathspey, Peak Rail, Lynton & Barnstaple, the list goes on and on - and each time volunteers and volunteer groups find themselves on the losing side of unnecessarily escalated rows with management types who are full of the letter of 'professionalism' and empty of its spirit.

 

I'd also point out that the outgoing NYMR GM - sorry, CEO - was not noted for his habit of remaining aloof. To his credit he was and is a great exponent of management by walking around so if we're doing 'faults on both sides' it is a little unfair to suggest that he did not know what was going on - vandalised leaflet and all - until it was too late to do anything but go nuclear.

 

But other than that your analysis of me and my views is spot on. Grats.

In which case I unreservedly apologise. You don’t always (often!) get tone and intention right online and I seem to have slipped up here. And thanks for your support of the NYMR.

 

I agree with your characterisation of Chris Price, but it’s obvious that the issues at Levisham long predate Chris’s tenure as GM.  In fact, it might be that his MBWA revealed that there was a situation there that needed addressing, and in addressing it that’s sparked the current upset.  ISTR that   the group were actually warned/advised/instructed to change their working practices earlier, but then ignored those instructions. A lot if Chris Price’s time as GM was taken up with the stress of dealing with the impact of Covid on the railway and so only recently will he have had bandwidth to address other long-standing imbroglios.

 

Richard

Edited November 20, 2023 by RichardT