Five volunteers SUSPENDED from NYMR

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 hours ago, MarkC said:

Mmm, About 25 years ago, one of my then company's senior officers decided to install a game on his ship's comms computer. Totally against all rules and, indeed, common sense. Unfortunately, he'd been given this (pirated) game by someone else, and the installation disc had more viruses in it than a South American house of ill repute, as the story goes... Not only did it knock out the ship's comms; it also got into the shore systems, and took a LOT of sorting out to get everything clean again...

 

Mark

When we first had a small network at our office a certain amount of private use space was allowed to encourage people to become familiar with the system, BUT on the strict condition that any incoming disk was scanned by the IT man before being inserted in your machine.

Edited November 18, 2023 by TheSignalEngineer

[PhilH]

4 hours ago, rodent279 said:

TBH, reading much of the above, there's not a lot that would encourage me to volunteer. I don't like backbiting, pettiness and silly internal politics in any context. That happens at work, but there I am paid to grin and bear it. It's bad enough sometimes just being a member of a club or organisation, but to volunteer in something that you have had a lifelong interest (dare I say it, passion?) in would risk spoiling that. And I'm certainly not keen on being part of a toxic environment, such as has been revealed by certain volunteers who have openly revealed the abuse & backstabbing they have been on the receiving end of.

 

So often in modern life it's a minority who seem to have the loudest voice. You have to set these cases against the overwhelming majority of volunteers who enjoy what they do, are happy to do what they do and get a hell of a lot of fulfilment out of it.

Of course there will always be reports of bad volunteering experiences but believe me some of these come from people who are just not cut out to be a volunteer, to be told what to do, and to have to do it in the way they are told to do it, which is essential in a safety critical work place such as a working railway.

 

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, TheQ said:

the board of trustees are all volunteers as well.

I think charity trustees have to be volunteers anyway though, even in organisations that have a larger proportion of paid staff.

 

3 hours ago, TheQ said:

The problem will be the future, when I worked there for real there were six hundred personnel, now there's just 3 civilians on the adjoining site. The pool of Future knowledgeable volunteers is rapidly decreasing, getting enough of any volunteers willing to learn in a country area, is difficult.

Hopefully though there will be volunteers in future who have the skills to do a talk or presentation and are enthusiastic about learning the information, so they don’t necessarily need to come to it with so much pre-existing knowledge.

[009 micro modeller]

On 17/11/2023 at 06:06, papagolfjuliet said:

I don't like to think ill of a railway which I have loved since I was a very small child, but the word which keeps coming to mind is 'Washford.'

Is it really that comparable to Washford? I thought there one of the major issues was that the S&D trust wouldn’t effectively donate money to the WSR PLC (the infamous ‘cuckoo in the nest’ press release), even though doing so would not have been possible/correct under their charitable objectives, and the WSR management took exception to this.

Edited November 18, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[rodent279]

When a person applies for a job, they are interviewed. Sometimes they have to go through a rigorous selection process.

 

Do volunteers have to go through the same? Maybe there's a case for some sort of application & selection process?

[PhilH]

51 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

When a person applies for a job, they are interviewed. Sometimes they have to go through a rigorous selection process.

 

Do volunteers have to go through the same? Maybe there's a case for some sort of application & selection process?

Aptitude and commitment are in most cases the qualities looked for in volunteer roles rather than perhaps a single interview. Don't forget in most roles one has to start at the very bottom and basically prove yourself, your ability to learn, your ability to function correctly in your chosen role.

I spent nearly 20 years as a driver on the Mid Hants railway but prior to that spent 10 years learning how to be a member of a footplate crew starting as a cleaner basically learning the mechanics of being a member of that crew, proving that I could take instruction, had the aptitude for the job, was reliable etc., etc. After four years as a cleaner it was six years as a fireman before finally taking quite arduous written and practical exams to become a driver, 
as you can see it's a long road and sometimes you wonder if it is worth it .This is perhaps where a lot of volunteers fall by the way side, wanting results quicker than the place they're volunteering at can give them.

Edited November 18, 2023 by PhilH

[MarkC]

2 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

When we first had a small network at our office a certain amount of private use space was allowed to encourage people to become familiar with the system, BUT on the strict condition that any incoming disk was scanned by the IT man before being inserted in your machine.

Ah, but this bloke was an IT expert - he told everybody that, so it must have been true. Oh, wait...

[pete_mcfarlane]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

When a person applies for a job, they are interviewed. Sometimes they have to go through a rigorous selection process.

 

Do volunteers have to go through the same? Maybe there's a case for some sort of application & selection process?

You tend to bite people's hands off if they show an interest in volunteering. Because you have to. 

 

And this is one of the challenges with managing volunteers - there aren't enough applicants for you to be picky. 

[Bucoops]

7 minutes ago, MarkC said:

Ah, but this bloke was an IT expert - he told everybody that, so it must have been true. Oh, wait...

 

Yup, had a few of those 😆 a favourite was instead of asking what to do when moving computers they do their own thing such as bringing in an old router from to add extra network  ports, then wondering why nothing worked. I ended up smashing one with a hammer in front of that office's manager to give a not so subtle hint.

 

When I was a volunteer, it was a relatively small outfit so no "groups" - I wonder if perhaps separate groups on a big line might be counter productive in ways as the smaller groups start to believe they own the whole of their fiefdom instead of effectively being a tenant.

[Johann Marsbar]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

When a person applies for a job, they are interviewed. Sometimes they have to go through a rigorous selection process.

 

Do volunteers have to go through the same? Maybe there's a case for some sort of application & selection process?

 

Forms certainly have to be filled in nowadays as far as our Museum is concerned and Referees are also required to be nominated, though, TBH, there is very rarely a need to follow them up.

They then go through an Induction session and are issued with a Volunters Handbook before they become a fully fledged Volunteer. Any new Inductee is placed with a "Mentor" for a short while as well.

 

All a far cry from when I first got involved as a 16 year old back in the late 1970's - No paperwork for not being an "Adult" and requiring Parental permission, I just turned up at one of the sites, said I wanted to become a volunteer and I was immediately put to work cleaning copper pipes off the engine of a 1938 fire appliance!

[009 micro modeller]

5 hours ago, rodent279 said:

When a person applies for a job, they are interviewed. Sometimes they have to go through a rigorous selection process.

 

Do volunteers have to go through the same? Maybe there's a case for some sort of application & selection process?

In my experience with museum volunteering, you do have to do an application and have an ‘interview’ (not as formal as a job interview though). The point is to see what the prospective volunteer’s interests are and how much they can commit to the role. If the application process is too onerous and bureaucratic it can be off-putting, leading to some people not volunteering at all, and there comes a point where, if a role requires a vast amount of incredibly specific previous experience, it’s getting to the stage where perhaps it should be a paid role. And for some types of volunteering, sometimes the person with most experience (or who has/had a job most similar to the volunteer role) isn’t always the best option because they might find it less rewarding, and put less effort in.

[RJS1977]

15 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Even leaving aside the rest of the situation, perhaps not a great way to speak to visitors.

 

Often I think it comes down to people in charge of these things not particularly being chosen for their skills in volunteer management (whether because they are a paid employee for whom volunteer management isn’t their main role, or because they’re a volunteer themselves but they haven’t needed to, or had the chance to, develop those skills previously).

 

Also when people are very passionate about things (and that can apply to volunteers, managers and paid heritage sector workers) they can sometimes get fixated on (and protective of) a certain idea of how to do something.

 

I think perhaps alongside this is the possibility that (particularly in a safety-critical area like heritage railways), there is a lot of mandatory training needed to operate safely - not just the technical things like passing out as a guard, driver, etc, and PTS, but also things like manual handling and safe working at heights, and consequently training for "soft" skills like people management tends to get overlooked. Of course there are also a great number of differences between managing volunteers and managing full-time paid staff, so available management courses may not necessarily be suitable anyway.

[kevinlms]

10 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

In my experience with museum volunteering, you do have to do an application and have an ‘interview’ (not as formal as a job interview though). The point is to see what the prospective volunteer’s interests are and how much they can commit to the role. If the application process is too onerous and bureaucratic it can be off-putting, leading to some people not volunteering at all, and there comes a point where, if a role requires a vast amount of incredibly specific previous experience, it’s getting to the stage where perhaps it should be a paid role. And for some types of volunteering, sometimes the person with most experience (or who has/had a job most similar to the volunteer role) isn’t always the best option because they might find it less rewarding, and put less effort in.

But you also have 'members', which is not the same thing as 'volunteers'. Some people think that being members, that it is enough to pay the subs and perhaps in some cases, never set foot on the premises.

That is OK, if their membership is covering the costs of them being members, but often subs are subsidized by the operations of the organisation. That leads to a possible conflict where some members make noises that they pay the same and spend a lot of time doing work, while others don't contribute at all.

 

It is a fine line, because some people can't volunteer - health, other commitments and others simply won't. I've been a member of clubs, where a recurring discussion is to have those that don't contribute, pay some sort of surcharge. For the trouble the discussion causes, I suspect it's just not worth the effort!

[Hal Nail]

18 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Do volunteers have to go through the same? Maybe there's a case for some sort of application & selection process?

Whilst not necessarily as formal as an interview, potential volunteers discuss what is involved and I've known cases where they have been gently steered towards something more suitable, for example if a certain level of experience was required, volunteer numbers in one department were already sufficient (it does still happen!) or it just wouldn't be safe for them to get over the tracks to the place of work.

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Hal Nail

[009 micro modeller]

6 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

I think perhaps alongside this is the possibility that (particularly in a safety-critical area like heritage railways), there is a lot of mandatory training needed to operate safely - not just the technical things like passing out as a guard, driver, etc, and PTS, but also things like manual handling and safe working at heights, and consequently training for "soft" skills like people management tends to get overlooked. Of course there are also a great number of differences between managing volunteers and managing full-time paid staff, so available management courses may not necessarily be suitable anyway.

 

I think there might be some training courses on volunteer management - possibly designed for people working in museums or community organisations as volunteer managers so probably quite suitable. Another issue when paid staff work alongside volunteers (at least in my experience) is that the paid staff often do appreciate volunteers’ work but feel under pressure to do more and know more about everything than the volunteers, because they’re getting paid to be there and the volunteers aren’t.

 

Agree about soft skills - even in paid roles these can get overlooked if there is anything that is either safety critical, or a completely essential part of the role that people need to be trained in.

[MarkC]

Man management - frankly, you either have it or you don't. It's even more important, I suggest, to possess these skills when working with volunteers than in the conventional, paid, workplace. When you're not being paid, then some oik basically saying "It's my way or the gangway" is a pretty good way of saying "sod it" and walking away, particularly when said oik isn't leading by example.

 

It becomes even more critical when you have a mixture of paid staff and volunteers.

 

Mark

[adb968008]

19 hours ago, PhilH said:

Aptitude and commitment are in most cases the qualities looked for in volunteer roles rather than perhaps a single interview. Don't forget in most roles one has to start at the very bottom and basically prove yourself, your ability to learn, your ability to function correctly in your chosen role.

I spent nearly 20 years as a driver on the Mid Hants railway but prior to that spent 10 years learning how to be a member of a footplate crew starting as a cleaner basically learning the mechanics of being a member of that crew, proving that I could take instruction, had the aptitude for the job, was reliable etc., etc. After four years as a cleaner it was six years as a fireman before finally taking quite arduous written and practical exams to become a driver, 
as you can see it's a long road and sometimes you wonder if it is worth it .This is perhaps where a lot of volunteers fall by the way side, wanting results quicker than the place they're volunteering at can give them.

Your assuming every volunteer wants to be on the footplate.

 

I would have a hard time believing there isnt a role for anyone to be a volunteer, even if its litter picking, a charity box or just giving information.

There are many willing to do unglamorous roles, but those roles also are overlooked but make a big difference to the image.

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

18 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

Forms certainly have to be filled in nowadays as far as our Museum is concerned and Referees are also required to be nominated, though, TBH, there is very rarely a need to follow them up.

They then go through an Induction session and are issued with a Volunters Handbook before they become a fully fledged Volunteer. Any new Inductee is placed with a "Mentor" for a short while as well.

 

All a far cry from when I first got involved as a 16 year old back in the late 1970's - No paperwork for not being an "Adult" and requiring Parental permission, I just turned up at one of the sites, said I wanted to become a volunteer and I was immediately put to work cleaning copper pipes off the engine of a 1938 fire appliance!

I can beat that, I started at 4… I was sent out to collect bottles for recycling, moved on to paper for recycling left to roam around the museum premises, whilst my dad did his thing with the volunteers around the site. Used to also sit in the museum shop and sort piles of second hand magazines by date and title… I learned that way that Railway Magazine in the 1970’s was worth nothing than paper recycling.. especially when getting more than a dozen of each issue !.. everyone donated them, no one wanted them… also learned things like Locomotives Illustrated and early Steam Railway were worth gold… turned into a good little money earner and got me a place in the shop.

 

That kind of independance at a young age, No wonder I was doing 250 mile solo train adventures to the South West by the age of 12 !

Edited November 19, 2023 by adb968008

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

It is a fine line, because some people can't volunteer - health, other commitments and others simply won't. I've been a member of clubs, where a recurring discussion is to have those that don't contribute, pay some sort of surcharge. For the trouble the discussion causes, I suspect it's just not worth the effort!

Wrong discussion.  You don't charge members more. 

You give perks to working members, such as free travel on the line, free catering on the days they're they're working.

[Michael Hodgson]

18 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

I would have a hard time believing there isnt a role for anyone to be a volunteer, even if its litter picking, a charity box or just giving information.

There are many willing to do unglamorous roles, but those roles also are overlooked but make a big difference to the image.

 

Unglamourous includes cleaning the station bogs.  It's a job that's got to be done.

[adb968008]

19 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

Yup, had a few of those 😆 a favourite was instead of asking what to do when moving computers they do their own thing such as bringing in an old router from to add extra network  ports, then wondering why nothing worked. I ended up smashing one with a hammer in front of that office's manager to give a not so subtle hint.

 

When I was a volunteer, it was a relatively small outfit so no "groups" - I wonder if perhaps separate groups on a big line might be counter productive in ways as the smaller groups start to believe they own the whole of their fiefdom instead of effectively being a tenant.

Some lines definietly become a state of “if you dont fit your isolated” thats for sure.

 

I recently met one man whom I knew decades ago, basically they brought a loco, started overhauling it. Didnt fit the “clique” found themselves moved to a siding, their tool van far away and the whole job slowed down.

Eventually they moved railway, everything accelerated overnight and the loco overhauled much faster as materials and resources were to hand, its up and running now. He made it clear as group they all agreed, the loco will never visit the line it used to historically run on and was partially overhauled for 2 decades at, because of how they were treated.

 

Its not just loco groups, Ive seen factions in C&W, platform staff (there can be some right little hitlers here, who shouldnt be public facing at all), wagon groups…. I honestly have sometimes wondered how preservation actually meets its aims sometimes and its nothing unqiue to one or a handful of lines… they all have some degree off it.

 

The only world ive never come across too much acrimony is the operations side.., signalling staff, guards and the footplate… never seen the guards go on strike for instance… I guess those roles are more coveted and high risk of losing privelige to other menial tasks by rocking the boat.

I agree day to day most lines are calm and pleasant. Ive visited dozens, if not a hundred lines and many ive visited dozens of times, and i’d say 9/10 are good, but scratch the surface it doesnt take long to find the “he said she said” boiling underneath, volunteers can be right gossips and every line is a village where everyone knows everyone.

 

 

Quote

So often in modern life it's a minority who seem to have the loudest voice. You have to set these cases against the overwhelming majority of volunteers who enjoy what they do, are happy to do what they do and get a hell of a lot of fulfilment out of it.

Of course there will always be reports of bad volunteering experiences but believe me some of these come from people who are just not cut out to be a volunteer, to be told what to do, and to have to do it in the way they are told to do it, which is essential in a safety critical work place such as a working railway.

I’m not sure I believe that sweeping generalisation.

 

I can think of one very well respected minority, who hit national media this year because of what happened, and I would never believe for one minute that person is not cut out to be a volunteer or is unsafe.

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

19 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

Yup, had a few of those 😆 a favourite was instead of asking what to do when moving computers they do their own thing such as bringing in an old router from to add extra network  ports, then wondering why nothing worked. I ended up smashing one with a hammer in front of that office's manager to give a not so subtle hint.

 

Were you the owner of the router, or did you buy a replacement ?

I hope the context wasn't confrontational in that sense.

 

Many years ago I took pleasure in dropping an x386 out of a window and smashing it, to much amusement of many coworkers. Whilst it was staged and pre-arranged, they werent aware of that and thought i’d gone fully loco, as I literally rocked up to the desk unplugged it and threw it from the window.

 

The hard part afterwards was picking up all the little pieces, the keyboard letters got everywhere !

(it was a charity stunt).

Edited November 19, 2023 by adb968008

[ikcdab]

4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

But you also have 'members', which is not the same thing as 'volunteers'. Some people think that being members, that it is enough to pay the subs and perhaps in some cases, never set foot on the premises.

That is OK, if their membership is covering the costs of them being members, but often subs are subsidized by the operations of the organisation. That leads to a possible conflict where some members make noises that they pay the same and spend a lot of time doing work, while others don't contribute at all.

 

It is a fine line, because some people can't volunteer - health, other commitments and others simply won't. I've been a member of clubs, where a recurring discussion is to have those that don't contribute, pay some sort of surcharge. For the trouble the discussion causes, I suspect it's just not worth the effort!

To be honest, this is nonsense. If an organisation isn't covering it's membership costs, then they need to address that, not blame the member. I recently became a member of the GWSR.  I have no plans to volunteer there. Are you saying I should feel guilty and resign immediately?

As as for your second point.  Volunteers work on a line because they want to do so. They enjoy doing it and it gives them all sorts of social paybacks.  They aren't forced to work there so no need to feel disadvantaged.

For what it's worth, on the West Somerset, volunteers can pay a much reduced membership.

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by ikcdab

[papagolfjuliet]

16 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Unglamourous includes cleaning the station bogs.  It's a job that's got to be done.

 

Jobs which reportedly are not now being done since the big I Ams evicted the station's dedicated volunteers. 

 

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g191269-d261307-r901495338-North_Yorkshire_Moors_Railway-Pickering_North_Yorkshire_England.html

[woodenhead]

58 minutes ago, MarkC said:

Man management - frankly, you either have it or you don't. It's even more important, I suggest, to possess these skills when working with volunteers than in the conventional, paid, workplace. When you're not being paid, then some oik basically saying "It's my way or the gangway" is a pretty good way of saying "sod it" and walking away, particularly when said oik isn't leading by example.

 

It becomes even more critical when you have a mixture of paid staff and volunteers.

 

Mark

As I grow ever closer to the point where I no longer need to work and the light at the end of the tunnel is in sight I think, then the desire to stick two fingers up at someone who doesn't show respect grows ever stronger.  If I was to volunteer (anywhere), I would expect whoever manages me to understand I am there because I want to be and the moment it is no longer engaging due to p!ss poor management I will be off.