Five volunteers SUSPENDED from NYMR

[APOLLO]

I'm surprised that all this went on under the radar.

 

There is a very big and powerfull one quite nearby !!!!!

 

 

Brit15

[PhilH]

In a lot of cases I think that the friction comes from the evolution of a heritage railway from a volunteer make do and mend operation into, in some cases, a multi million pound business.

I suppose the older volunteers have to realise that the world has changed whilst the full time people running the business have to realise that they are standing on the shoulders of these older volunteers without whom there would no business for them to run.

[rodent279]

It seems more and more that volunteers are unpaid labour supporting a business, which is not quite the ethos that the preservation movement started with-that of volunteers mucking in to achieve something greater than could be achieved as individuals, or as a business. 

Now we have businesses that can't survive without the volunteers, but somehow don't always seem to recognise that their business is built on the efforts of those volunteers.

I was at the SVR 2 weeks ago. Still a great line, we had a great day out, but it must be a totally different beast to the volunteer led organisation of the 70's. Really it has more in common with a theme park than a steam preservation centre.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

I'm surprised that all this went on under the radar.

 

There is a very big and powerfull one quite nearby !!!!!

 

 

Brit15

I thought the gold balls went decades ago

[TheSignalEngineer]

39 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

What we quibble about is whether there is any concrete evidence, in the form of quoted statistical evidence, that justifies the 'progress' in question.

Railways need to be in a continual learning mode. We found out things the hard way, newcomers often don't learn the history of why and wherefore and will repeat the mistakes.

At 18 years old I was confronted by the sight of an AM4 unit on its side with Fire Brigade and doctors climbing over it to get to the injured and to recover the dead. Causes - (i) not understanding the reason for the normal  lie of a set of points when designing a resignalling scheme,  lesson never forgotten in my whole career,

(ii) not applying the rules correctly during shunting movements on the main line after control had been transferred to the power box.

Not long after I was working in Crewe Works when the wrecked AL1 loco from Hixon was bought in. The job of recovering the bodies of the crew was considered too bad for railwaymen to carry out and was done by specially recruited contractors behind closed doors at night. We didn't actually see to loco until the front end had been cut off and taken away. More lessons learned about level crossing protection, pity users don't learn some pof their own.

20 years later - Clapham. I had just spent three 12-hour night shifts supervising and testing on exactly the same type of work as was the final nail in the chain of events there. You have to look back on the run up to the event. We had five years of consecutive cuts and reorganisations in signalling projects. I got out of the design part of the chain when I was publically criticised in front of staff by a very senior figure within BR for wasting time and money in doing the job in the way that myself and others had evolved over years of hands on experience of all steps in the process. We knew what worked safely and efficiently from bitter experiences on previous jobs.

When things based on experience get torn up and history repeats itself and more stringent rules than before are applied. I spent the next two years of my career re-inventing instructions that had been thrown away by senior management in those five years. Some of the rules introduced in design were exactly the process I was chastised by management for doing a couple of years earlier.

 

A lot were thrown away in privatisation and re-invented again. Some of the NR rules on developing and managing signalling projects were a straight crib from a document of mine written in the 1979-80 but thrown away by Railtrack c1995.

 

Back to the topic, too many volunteer organisations run on fag packet recording, decisions being made on-th-hoof by a small clique who don't like newcomers. Things get ignored like abuse and bullying by those who see it as their personal pet. Eventually someone has to take control of the situation. It isn't pleasant for either side when it's happening but it can't be left to fester or bigger problems will follow. As an official of a sports club I had to expel one member due to stalking and harrassment complaints against him, and more recently had to investigate some bad blood between two plot holders at the allotment site. In that instance it was more a case of banging heads together and telling them grow up. 

[cctransuk]

28 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Railways need to be in a continual learning mode. We found out things the hard way, newcomers often don't learn the history of why and wherefore and will repeat the mistakes.

At 18 years old I was confronted by the sight of an AM4 unit on its side with Fire Brigade and doctors climbing over it to get to the injured and to recover the dead. Causes - (i) not understanding the reason for the normal  lie of a set of points when designing a resignalling scheme,  lesson never forgotten in my whole career,

(ii) not applying the rules correctly during shunting movements on the main line after control had been transferred to the power box.

Not long after I was working in Crewe Works when the wrecked AL1 loco from Hixon was bought in. The job of recovering the bodies of the crew was considered too bad for railwaymen to carry out and was done by specially recruited contractors behind closed doors at night. We didn't actually see to loco until the front end had been cut off and taken away. More lessons learned about level crossing protection, pity users don't learn some pof their own.

20 years later - Clapham. I had just spent three 12-hour night shifts supervising and testing on exactly the same type of work as was the final nail in the chain of events there. You have to look back on the run up to the event. We had five years of consecutive cuts and reorganisations in signalling projects. I got out of the design part of the chain when I was publically criticised in front of staff by a very senior figure within BR for wasting time and money in doing the job in the way that myself and others had evolved over years of hands on experience of all steps in the process. We knew what worked safely and efficiently from bitter experiences on previous jobs.

When things based on experience get torn up and history repeats itself and more stringent rules than before are applied. I spent the next two years of my career re-inventing instructions that had been thrown away by senior management in those five years. Some of the rules introduced in design were exactly the process I was chastised by management for doing a couple of years earlier.

 

A lot were thrown away in privatisation and re-invented again. Some of the NR rules on developing and managing signalling projects were a straight crib from a document of mine written in the 1979-80 but thrown away by Railtrack c1995.

 

Back to the topic, too many volunteer organisations run on fag packet recording, decisions being made on-th-hoof by a small clique who don't like newcomers. Things get ignored like abuse and bullying by those who see it as their personal pet. Eventually someone has to take control of the situation. It isn't pleasant for either side when it's happening but it can't be left to fester or bigger problems will follow. As an official of a sports club I had to expel one member due to stalking and harrassment complaints against him, and more recently had to investigate some bad blood between two plot holders at the allotment site. In that instance it was more a case of banging heads together and telling them grow up. 

 

All true - and none disputed, but wasn't it always thus?

 

The human condition is such that we will ALWAYS repeat the follies of our forefathers - to believe that we can make the future a safer place is delusion.

 

EVERYTHING evolves, and brings new hazards which will only be recognised when the worst happens - and the hand-wringing and blame allocation starts.

 

As I have said - repeatedly - the world moves on and sh*t happens!

 

What is going wrong now is that we are trying to second-guess where the next disaster will occur. We can't - but in trying to do so we are slowly eliminating any chance of developing further.

 

We don't choose to be born, but - when it happens nonetheless - there is no user lifetime guarantee.

 

CJI.

[DCB]

It does sound like managers who can't manage organisations which rely on volunteers.   Rather like the problems armed forces "officers" experience with civilians.    Volunteers need to be cut some slack and encouraged  to do stuff they want to do.   Most of them don't actually want to die or be hurt in the process but "Oh we will have to put tat to the finance committee when it meets in three months  time" works with paid minions but not volunteers.
There are two sides but losing  not easily replaced assets like volunteers (who seem to be mainly pensioners on the NYMR)  is a serious matter.   The railways may turn over a lot of money but few are actually breaking even as  infrastructure deteriorates without proper provision for future maintenance so retaining and  motivating volunteers is the principal skill one should seek in those in management positions.  You  can tell volunteers NOT to do something but you cannot tell them TO do something.  You the manager, have to ask. they the volunteer are doing you the favour.  Even if the manager are yourself a volunteer. Its not rocket science but its amazing how many people are too thick to take this on board.

[TheSignalEngineer]

31 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

All true - and none disputed, but wasn't it always thus?

 

The human condition is such that we will ALWAYS repeat the follies of our forefathers - to believe that we can make the future a safer place is delusion.

Likewise I can't dispute what you are saying. Some happenings you can forecast from historical performance statistics but not random failures or when two or three things align and a mistake slips through the hole.

I've made my mistakes but fortunately the system in place at the time trapped them before they became incidents.

 

Progress will happen, but what frightens me is today's rush to "get things to market" without finding if they work correctly. Nowadys we trust SSI to control our signalling but when it was first developed one of my colleagues spent 18 months trying to break it before it was even put into trial service.

[Michael Hodgson]

28 minutes ago, DCB said:

The railways may turn over a lot of money but few are actually breaking even as  infrastructure deteriorates without proper provision for future maintenance so retaining and  motivating volunteers is the principal skill one should seek in those in management positions.  You  can tell volunteers NOT to do something but you cannot tell them TO do something.  You the manager, have to ask. they the volunteer are doing you the favour.  Even if the manager are yourself a volunteer. Its not rocket science but its amazing how many people are too thick to take this on board.

It amazes me that the preservation lines seem to manage to run the advertised service without having to cancel trains because of lack of a train crew.  Rostering must be a nightmare.  Volunteers don't have to ask for a day off - if they prefer to attend a family wedding this Saturday, watch the cup final on telly or whatever, you really don't have much leverage.

[Steamport Southport]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

It amazes me that the preservation lines seem to manage to run the advertised service without having to cancel trains because of lack of a train crew.  Rostering must be a nightmare.  Volunteers don't have to ask for a day off - if they prefer to attend a family wedding this Saturday, watch the cup final on telly or whatever, you really don't have much leverage.

 

Running trains used to pee me off something rotten as I was there to restore and repair them, yet spent most of the time playing trains....

 

When people complain that Railway Society XYZ have taken decades to restore locomotive number XXXX that's usually the problem. Plenty of times I've been in a firebox or hanging upside down from some brake rigging when someone has asked me to do a driving/firing/second man/guard/signal box duty.....

 

And it wasn't at one project in particular it happens at all off them in my experience. Once they know you are capable then you are the "go to" deputy.

 

 

But the question also exists as to what some of these volunteers get out of it in return?

 

Half of them seem to get a lot of glory from other peoples work. Met loads of them that just want to hang around looking important wearing a uniform.

 

I remember one railway "Down South" where I spent a few moments looking for someone in charge.

Asked one bloke "Is that your engine outside?"

"Don't have anything to do with engines" he snapped, whilst muttering something about bl**dy trainspotters asking stupid questions.

"Well, it's rolling away by itself!"

 

Never seen anyone move so fast in my life. 🤣

 

 

Loved my time volunteering, but probably wouldn't do it again.

 

 

Jason

[Jeremy Cumberland]

51 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

It amazes me that the preservation lines seem to manage to run the advertised service without having to cancel trains because of lack of a train crew.  Rostering must be a nightmare.  Volunteers don't have to ask for a day off - if they prefer to attend a family wedding this Saturday, watch the cup final on telly or whatever, you really don't have much leverage.

The heritage railways I have been involved in tend to have a pool of local people (volunteers) who are willing to be summoned at short notice to cover for absence. Equally, there is general acceptance that volunteers might have to cancel their duties for a variety of reasons, most of which also affect paid workers, such as falling ill, a family emergency or the car breaking down. Volunteers might be given a little more leeway than paid workers, but not much, and volunteers who repeatedly don't turn up for their duty will be called in for interview and risk being removed from that particular role.

 

The railway I currently volunteer on uses HOPS for volunteer bookings in all operating and many non-operating duties. This is an online staff management system widely used by heritage railways and similar organisations, and quite frankly it is brilliant. I book specific duties within my competence. Bookings are more or less on a first come first served basis, but the railway's HOPS administrator has the final say, and can decline turns if there is more than one applicant. Furthermore, when I book, I can see the entire operations staff roster for that day, so I could, if I wished, base my choice of turns around who I would be working with (although the railway encourages volunteers to book as wide a variety of duties as possible, not always the same one with the same person/people). The upshot is that I have chosen what to do myself. Why then would I decide not to do the turn?

 

HOPS is also very good for communications. There is no doubt about whether I booked on this day or that day, whether my start time is 7:30 or 9 o'clock, or whether I actually sent in a booking, becuase it is all visible on the HOPS website. I also get two emails to tell me. One when the booking is accepted, and one two days before the rostered turn, as a reminder.

 

Oh, and in respect of days off, volunteers are subject to Hidden rules, just the same as paid staff. The volunteer's ordinary paid job (if they have one) isn't counted, because it is deemed to be sufficiently different from the volunteer role, much like ordinary railway workers' leisure activities aren't taken into account in their rostering. But safety-critical volunteers (which means anyone in ops roles) have the same maximum hours, minimum rest periods and maximum consecutive days as everyone else.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Jeremy Cumberland

[ejstubbs]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

You  can tell volunteers NOT to do something

 

Multiple reports indicate that the volunteers in question were indeed told NOT to do something - strictly, not to do it again - but that they went ahead and did it anyway.  That's not really acceptable from anyone in any organisation, in any kind of role.  (Except perhaps for certain politicians...but let's not go there.)

Edited November 17, 2023 by ejstubbs

[009 micro modeller]

10 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I guess there's an element in the volunteering community that doesn't like taking instructions, being told what to do & what not to do, and thinks that because they are giving their time, labour skills etc freely, they are indispensable, and shouldn't be held to account.

 

On 16/11/2023 at 16:04, Nearholmer said:

Major fallings out between entrenched volunteer groups and new, professional management aren’t exactly a new thing at heritage sites in general, not just railways. I know of one such at a very important heritage location close to where I live, and the NT went through multiple ‘culture change’ battles a couple of decades ago when it started to try and broaden its appeal.

I’ve made this point elsewhere but it’s possibly relevant again here: almost all museums and heritage organisations have some level of volunteer involvement in some form. However, as someone working in a museum, I think heritage railways are a bit unusual within the wider heritage sector (which they are part of, even if they don’t always perceive themselves to be) because of the scale and complexity of projects that are not only volunteer-run but often volunteer-led as well. In large museums with volunteers, the volunteers tend to be placed in roles which support core activities (or improve them, adding something extra on top of the basics) rather than performing these core roles all by themselves. So for instance, a learning volunteer might support and accompany a school group during their (otherwise self-led) visit, and help them during a classroom session, but the actual delivery of that session would be done by a paid employee.

 

At another level there are smaller museums where a lot of staffing is by volunteers (and in more “essential” core roles than in the example above), but coordinated and overseen by paid staff. I used to work at one such site where part of my role was being a duty manager, but our gallery stewards were all volunteers. In theory we could not have opened the building to visitors without the volunteers, but we generally planned to have a few more volunteers in each day than needed, and also had the option if we were really short-staffed of covering positions with paid staff, who were already on site anyway doing office and preparation work etc. The site had free admission, which I think took a lot of pressure off everyone anyway, and while duty managing we were also supposed to try and make the volunteers’ job quite relaxing, so they could concentrate on the things that were interesting to them and helpful to the organisation, such as telling visitors about the history of the building and the objects on display.

 

Then there are very small museums, run entirely by volunteers (or potentially with one or two paid staff to do admin and volunteer coordination, or freelancers to provide specific events etc.). I know of two small museums local to me that are entirely volunteer-run. Both are very good but I don’t think either involves a level of operational complexity and risk comparable to that of a heritage railway (especially a really long standard gauge one with main line running like the NYMR). On the other hand, a former colleague has now gone to work at a local canal heritage trust (it’s definitely a heritage organisation, if not exactly a museum), where he is one of only two paid employees. They do volunteer-run boat trips, which in some ways is more comparable to the normal heritage railway model, but again with support and coordination from the paid staff. As far as I know though, the trust is not run by a membership organisation, so it isn’t volunteer-led in that sense.

 

Another slight difference is that in the wider heritage sector, there was a bit of a trend a few years ago of replacing (often highly-skilled) paid staff with volunteers in an attempt to cut costs. There was some backlash against this, as it seemed to devalue their professional experience while also putting undue pressure on the volunteers. There’s also the issue of people getting into the museum sector having to do a lot of volunteering (generally a lot more than for other sectors) just to get work experience and enable them to get a job of any kind in the sector, which can create other issues (see here for more explanation - there might be a bit of crossover with the topic of this thread but a lot is off-topic). The relevant point for this discussion about Levisham is probably that volunteer management is a skill, but one not always appreciated by all volunteers, and especially under-appreciated by managers who haven’t previously worked with volunteers. The main point, anyway, is to illustrate the contrast with heritage railways, a lot of which started out being entirely volunteer-run and have only started to use paid staff subsequently (either because they have expanded massively and now need someone to do the complicated and onerous tasks, or because there aren’t enough volunteers available).

Actually, while the above contrasts railway preservation with other parts of the heritage sector, possibly they aren’t that different after all. I sometimes wonder if some of the larger heritage lines have got to the stage where roles that would have been reasonable for a single volunteer to do originally have sort of grown with the line, to the point where they require a much larger level of commitment. Which takes it back to the question of which roles are more appropriate for volunteers, and which for paid staff.

 

Also there’s the tension between what the volunteer gets out of volunteering (enjoying or developing an interest/hobby, work experience, social aspects etc.) and what benefit there is to the organisation they volunteer with. If it’s biased too far towards the latter then that might put volunteers off if they feel they’re being used. I used to do some volunteering that was a bit like this, but I was willing to overlook that up to a point because it was giving me useful experience.

 

The only other comparison I would make with other heritage volunteering is about situations where volunteers themselves take decisions, via membership organisations. Not unique to railway preservation but probably more common there than elsewhere in the heritage sector. Although it was in a completely different context, I used to run a small volunteer-led project with elected committee members and we did sometimes get into spats with the paid staff in our parent organisation because, essentially, we didn’t like to be told what to do (we had more experience of running our particular activities, after all, and didn’t want to deal with unhelpful policies and bureaucracy). So I definitely understand that side of the argument but also (from the point of view that a heritage organisation often wants to reach as wide a range of people as possible) can see the pitfalls of having the direction the organisation takes decided only by its volunteers and members.

[kevinlms]

Some administrators (even if volunteers themselves) take the view that they are God and expect others to do as they are ordered.

It comes down to the fact that they don't know how to deal with people - giving orders generally fails to work and in fact drives volunteers away or if the volunteer has been there for a long time and knows how the system should work, is likely to be extremely hostile.

 

Yes, I'm aware that sometimes 'orders' ARE appropriate, such as telling someone not to continue a dangerous act, but usually an order, isn't the best way to get people to do something needed of them.

[6990WitherslackHall]

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

"Don't have anything to do with engines" he snapped, whilst muttering something about bl**dy trainspotters asking stupid questions.

🤣

Well that was rude of him.

 

 

(I seem to can't remove the laughing emoji hence why it's still there)

Edited November 18, 2023 by 6990WitherslackHall

[kevinlms]

8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

 

 

I remember one railway "Down South" where I spent a few moments looking for someone in charge.

Asked one bloke "Is that your engine outside?"

"Don't have anything to do with engines" he snapped, whilst muttering something about bl**dy trainspotters asking stupid questions.

"Well, it's rolling away by itself!"

 

Never seen anyone move so fast in my life. 🤣

 

 

Loved my time volunteering, but probably wouldn't do it again.

 

 

Jason

Funny how they react to information, you gave them when they didn't want to know about!

 

Too bad, you have given away volunteering, it can be rewarding - don't let idiots get you down! Keep volunteering to spite them.

[rodent279]

TBH, reading much of the above, there's not a lot that would encourage me to volunteer. I don't like backbiting, pettiness and silly internal politics in any context. That happens at work, but there I am paid to grin and bear it. It's bad enough sometimes just being a member of a club or organisation, but to volunteer in something that you have had a lifelong interest (dare I say it, passion?) in would risk spoiling that. And I'm certainly not keen on being part of a toxic environment, such as has been revealed by certain volunteers who have openly revealed the abuse & backstabbing they have been on the receiving end of.

 

[kevinlms]

11 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

TBH, reading much of the above, there's not a lot that would encourage me to volunteer. I don't like backbiting, pettiness and silly internal politics in any context. That happens at work, but there I am paid to grin and bear it. It's bad enough sometimes just being a member of a club or organisation, but to volunteer in something that you have had a lifelong interest (dare I say it, passion?) in would risk spoiling that. And I'm certainly not keen on being part of a toxic environment, such as has been revealed by certain volunteers who have openly revealed the abuse & backstabbing they have been on the receiving end of.

 

Unfortunately without some contribution from volunteers, none of the things people like, such as preserved railways would exist. Remember, Beeching and his predecessors and descendants, determined that these places, were uneconomical to exist and so closed them down.

[Bucoops]

13 hours ago, woodenhead said:

In my own job I've had to unlearn 20 years of bad best practice recently and no longer do I have one user account that is my main logon and also admin to a number of servers.  Does it make my job harder, yes, does it make our systems more secure, certainly, should I change practice, without a doubt I should.

 

Know exactly where you are coming from there - and helping users move away from "the old ways" is very painful! "What do you mean I can't install a game on my pc for lunchtime use any more?" "I've always had local admin so I can do stuff without bothering you" and so on...

[RJS1977]

It's always sad to hear of fallings-out at heritage railways.

 

What I will say though is that volunteering on the C&WR was one of the few things that kept me going mentally during the dark days of the pandemic.

As someone who lives alone, lockdown and the early post-lockdown period was a very difficult time for me, with all social activities suspended other than through a computer screen. As a non-driver, the ban on public transport use also limited me to only being able to go to places I could walk to and from.

Volunteering on the C&WR (being largely outdoors) was one of the first activities to restart when restrictions began to ease, and so as soon as transport restrictions lifted sufficiently I was up there every Saturday. (At the time, I was still quite wary about personal contact - particularly with people I didn't know - and was also struggling to find masks I could wear comfortably for more than about half an hour, so the 30 minute ride to Wallingford on a near-empty bus was for a while the furthest I felt comfortable travelling). Being able to spend time with friends (and indeed make some new ones) whilst doing something useful and productive (in contrast to my job at the time, which was neither...) was an absolute Godsend.

This was also the period during which the Maidenhead canopy was being rebuilt at Wallingford (taking advantage of the enforced line closure), and whilst I wasn't directly involved in its reconstruction, seeing that progress week by week was another psychological boost.

[MarkC]

23 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

Know exactly where you are coming from there - and helping users move away from "the old ways" is very painful! "What do you mean I can't install a game on my pc for lunchtime use any more?" "I've always had local admin so I can do stuff without bothering you" and so on...

Mmm, About 25 years ago, one of my then company's senior officers decided to install a game on his ship's comms computer. Totally against all rules and, indeed, common sense. Unfortunately, he'd been given this (pirated) game by someone else, and the installation disc had more viruses in it than a South American house of ill repute, as the story goes... Not only did it knock out the ship's comms; it also got into the shore systems, and took a LOT of sorting out to get everything clean again...

 

Mark

[009 micro modeller]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

"Don't have anything to do with engines" he snapped, whilst muttering something about bl**dy trainspotters asking stupid questions.

Even leaving aside the rest of the situation, perhaps not a great way to speak to visitors.

 

7 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Some administrators (even if volunteers themselves) take the view that they are God and expect others to do as they are ordered.

It comes down to the fact that they don't know how to deal with people - giving orders generally fails to work and in fact drives volunteers away or if the volunteer has been there for a long time and knows how the system should work, is likely to be extremely hostile.

Often I think it comes down to people in charge of these things not particularly being chosen for their skills in volunteer management (whether because they are a paid employee for whom volunteer management isn’t their main role, or because they’re a volunteer themselves but they haven’t needed to, or had the chance to, develop those skills previously).

 

Also when people are very passionate about things (and that can apply to volunteers, managers and paid heritage sector workers) they can sometimes get fixated on (and protective of) a certain idea of how to do something.

[Mike Bellamy]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

 I don't like backbiting, pettiness and silly internal politics in any context. . . . .  just being a member of a club or organisation . . . . .  certainly not keen on being part of a toxic environment, such as has been revealed by certain volunteers who have openly revealed the abuse & backstabbing they have been on the receiving end of.

 

For similar reasons, a few years ago our club chairman, secretary and exhibition manager all resigned from the committee leaving me as treasurer as the one remaining 'senior' officer - although there were times when I felt like joining them . . . . . thankfully everything settled down soon after as one individual had his membership suspended and then an application to re-join was refused.

.

[TheQ]

The museum I volunteer at https://www.radarmuseum.co.uk/ there's just the one paid person, the manager, the board of trustees are all volunteers as well.

 

The volunteers schedules are published regularly by Excel spreadsheet. You just notify the volunteer who runs it of absences.  There are occasions where there are appeals for extra volunteers, for special events, or a schools visit.

 

There are of course the odd bit of confusion when someone goes sick or can't come in. But we are all warned when we join that there may be occasions when you have to step up and do another role. 

 

Many of us volunteers are the "experts", I normally guide people round a room where 50% of the equipment isn't like the equipment I worked on. It is the actual equipment I worked on. I'm learning the rest, as other guides do.

 

The problem will be the future, when I worked there for real there were six hundred personnel, now there's just 3 civilians on the adjoining site. The pool of Future knowledgeable volunteers is rapidly decreasing, getting enough of any volunteers willing to learn in a country area, is difficult.

 

 

At my sailing club ( all volunteer run, no paid staff except the cleaner) some years ago, someone got upset at never being elected to the committee, he started going through the rules, attendance records etc trying to get committee members thrown off.

 

He got thrown out of the club due to the grief he was causing, so he sued the club.

Eventually he won the case against being thrown out, due to a technicality.. The judge awarded him £1 and no costs...

So the ex policeman was let back in, no one spoke to him , so he stayed for a year, and left.

 

[adb968008]

11 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

Multiple reports indicate that the volunteers in question were indeed told NOT to do something - strictly, not to do it again - but that they went ahead and did it anyway.  That's not really acceptable from anyone in any organisation, in any kind of role.  (Except perhaps for certain politicians...but let's not go there.)

Were the reasons explained why ?

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by adb968008