End of Warley National Show - but now it's not the end of a show at the NEC.

[Ian J.]

As for young people, they are in the hobby. I saw that in the attendees for Warley in November 2023 on Sunday when I was there.

 

But I can't believe they will ever reach the numbers of the boomer block (born 1945-1965) who are the ones now hitting the average age of dying. The younger ones also have less disposable income, and more things to spend it on.

[steve45]

The entrance and parking fees at Warley NEC was due to the exhibition size and therefore the necessary venue. You got twice as much bang for your buck than at any other show.

 

Attendance was not obligatory and everyone knew what to expect.

[RichardT]

7 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

We had a problem with my nephew, which I believe is very common, as all he would do was watch other people playing video games on YouTube when he had the games himself unopened!

I’m not entirely confident Jason that if you asked all RMWeb participants to post a photo of their layout *right this minute* you’d get anything like a 100% response.  A lot of people who are self-described railway modellers do seem, when pressed, to be “still in the research stage”/“gathering equipment for a future scheme” etc etc

 

(Puts up own hand…)

 

RT

[MarkSG]

Just now, Steamport Southport said:

The problem is - do they just watch the videos or actually participate?

 

I'm pretty sure that some people spend more time on web forums than actually modelling, as well 😉

 

 

[PMP]

19 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The problem is - do they just watch the videos or actually participate?

 

We had a problem with my nephew, which I believe is very common, as all he would do was watch other people playing video games on YouTube when he had the games himself unopened!

 

 

Jason

One of the things I try and do at any show is to give interested youngsters a go where practical, regardless of size of show, and obviously with guardian supervision. I have a small team of regular operators, and they too do the same thing with my layouts. You get a feeling for those that it’s worth offering the opportunity to from their and their guardian’s demeanour and behaviour.
 

Whether this subsequently engages them to do something actively rather than passively I have no idea. But if you hand over the controls to something like this:

Which clearly isn’t a Thomas type train set, it does seem to light a fire within them in the moment.

 

Edited January 13 by PMP
Addition

[irishmail]

8 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

I'm pretty sure that some people spend more time on web forums than actually modelling, as well 😉

 

 

Thats probably  most of  us  on here  then. Lol,....  😀

[Jol Wilkinson]

It has been my experience, both though working with a small supplier of kits and an Area Group of the S4 Society that many "newcomers" to the hobby tend to be those whose children have grown up and in some cases even left home. They therefore have a bit more time, money and space to indulge a constructive hobby. Home layouts don't have to be large and by joining a local club or national Society with Area Groups they can have access to information, guidance and support.

 

Of course that doesn't always work if your local club isn't very welcoming and forward looking. Some people want to work independently which is where Societies and Forums such as this are a great help, although sometimes advice offered can be conflicting and confusing.

 

Exhibitions can have a strong role to play, in providing platforms for seeing inspirational (usually) modeling, meeting experienced demonstrators and meeting suppliers first hand. Personally, Warley wasn't my cup of tea, preferring shows such as the 4mm Societies events, York, Railex at Aylesbury and the SHMRC Portsmouth show. Over the years I have seen shows rise and fall. The Chatham show in the dockyard was good and I believe has been revived. The Southwold show was aways an enjoyable event but closed owing to lack of support for the show manager from his fellow club members, AFAIK. The Watford Finescale Show was a always  aworthwhile event (the cakes are a very fond memory) but it too fell by the wayside when the  active club members were too few to continue.

 

Perhaps we have had too many shows. Most clubs seemed to run one and the few local ones I visited were not very inspirational. They were however inexpensive to attend and I wonder if that set a rather low bar in people's willingness to pay for the larger shows. The small shows do however provide  an opportunity for local families to have an inexpensive few hours out, hopefully planting the occasional seed. I believe that model railway exhibitions represent great value for money, especially when compared with other activities. Warley may have been a bit of an outlier here in some people's views, but if so it was down to the venue.

 

How effective is social media in presenting the hobby? Some people use it to successfully promote themselves and their view of the hobby. Forums can work well, but other platforms such as Facebook, whilst having easy access and good visibility don't appear to provide a structured and readily searchable way to find prior posts and information.

 

Despite the discontinuation or the Warley show and Hattons closure, the hobby is still reasonably buoyant. It may be slowing down and its protagonists getting a bit older - although not necessarily wiser - but if you are able and willing to look back to where the hobby was in the sixties and seventies and where it is today, we are far better off today in many ways, although some will no doubt think otherwise.

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

At Warley while manning the LMS society stand I noticed that a lot of young people were visiting the show. The age issue isn't that people aren't getting into the hobby it's that they aren't joining societies and clubs.

 

I've been involved with the breakdown at a largish show for some years (no names, no packdrill). One thing that struck me particularly last year was that while pre-pandemic I was one of the younger members of the crew (I like to think of myself as middle-aged), last year at least half the crew seemed to be under 30. The club recruited remarkably strongly at the previous show - the first after the pandemic. It's also had a strong youth section in recent years.

 

Post pandemic there was a noticeable shift in the show demographics. Pre-pandemic , you got the modellers , from 50 to 80, and then the families with a youngster aged under 10 chanting "Thomas the tank! Thomas the tank!".

 

Post pandemic , those families had disappeared. But there were suddenly quite a lot of people from the late teens up into their thirties. Traders at shows  in 2022 were reporting these people were spending. Where there were families, the child was in his teens . There was a marked increase in female visitors - and these were not accompanying Grandad aged 75.

 

This matches with Aire Head's view of the last Warley demographic. I was struck at Railex this year by how elderly the punters seemed - that may be because I've become used to a rather different demographic at other post-pandemic shows. But it may also reflect that the finescale movement is now becoming rather long in the tooth.

 

A lot of folk seem to have become involved with the hobby during lockdown, though the route of building a small layout at home while they were shut in. These are not finescale layouts /modelling as we've known it, and they won't have come in through the conventional club/show/exhibition layout scene. There are a lot of Facebook groups now, and these people are very likely already to be on Facebook. In another direction Hornby appear to be selling TT:120 as fast as they make it (admittedly a modest part of their overall production) . Someone's buying it, but there's barely a hint of it in the established hobby - not a breath at Railex to hint that there might be a new commercial scale out there, and hardly much more at Ally Pally or DEMU  Showcase

 

In short the new blood - however much of it there is - seems to be over the horizon as far as the established hobby goes. I think they are very happy to go to shows , and buy magazines. Some clubs seem to be picking them up. Other clubs may not be . How far they are willing to get involved in organising and running things, I don't know. After all they are still newbies and novices.. And since they are largely over the horizon it's difficult to say how far the lockdown surge has been sustained and how many have dropped out under the economic pressures of the last year or so

[Mike]

I have had the privilege of exhibiting 13 layouts at Warley from the early days of the Harry Mitchel Centre to the NEC. Knotts Landing and Wantage, Mount Pleasant, Lenches Bridge, Ashwood Basin, Spinners End, Pattingham, Reely Grate, Primrose Hill, The Saltwells Branch, Wellington Street, The Wallows, Wallows Pit and Hookton Riverside. So 3 in 4mm, 1 in 0-16.5 and 9 in 0 scale. Mount Pleasant did 2 shows at the NEC. Why the list, well I saw the same faces doing their incredible work over all that time. Of course, supported by local club members and now they deserve a well-earned rest. They have an absolute incredible work ethic and I for one cannot praise them enough. My thanks to all of the Warley Club and a special thank you for the fantastic Bread Pudding.

[Pete Haitch]

Two or three months ago I visited the Beckenham club show at Forest Hill.  Operation of the clubs main  exhibition layout had been entrusted to two young lads - perhaps early secondary school age. That is responsibility for thousands of pounds worth of stock and equipment, for selecting trains and routes, operating the digital equipment to make the trains move, and for putting on a good display for myself and the rest of the public.  They were doing a far better job than some older exhibitors  I've seen  who stop for a chat with an old friend rather than finding a relief operator first. There was the odd adult about but they were staying hands-off.  I wonder if in some cases a young persons section is a way of keeping the next generation away from roles and responsibilities that senior members believe are their domain and, therefore, probably away from the hobby.  (Obviously not the case at Beckenham).

 

[fulton]

41 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 Over the years I have seen shows rise and fall. The Chatham show in the dockyard was good and I believe has been revived.

I was chair of the Chatham exhibition team for several years, our problem was our normal venue, in the Dockyard became unavailable, after three shows in another venue that also became unavailable, the final school really was not suitable, and we suffered loses, plus the team was getting older, so we called it a day. The Chatham club now has a much younger, the average age has gone from over 60 to the 30s, and talented membership, the Dockyard has become available again, a whole new team will be staging a new show this July, I think this is just the normal cycle that clubs, exhibitions etc. go through, one generation steps aside and the next takes over.

Edited January 13 by fulton
correction

[finelines]

The Chatham exhibition held in the Ropery  was the best ever exhibition Sharon and I attended. 
 

Roger

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

I certainly agree that other factors did play a big part, but even so if people are still young enough and keen  enough to put on big shows they will only do so if they are well supported.

I think the modern "world of work" militates against younger people getting involved at organisational/management level in our club structure.

 

There's a lot of talk about "flexibility" but, in many cases it only seems to cut one way.

 

A predictable retirement age, let alone an early one, is also rapidly becoming a thing of the past, as are final salary pensions. 

 

So, any new blood entering the highly active segment of the hobby, which drives the exhibition scene, isn't as new as it used to be.....

 

John

Edited January 13 by Dunsignalling

[Listerboy]

1 hour ago, Ian J. said:

Re cost of ticket for Warley.

 

At £21*, the price of four coffees from the likes of Starbucks. Not a huge amount. If your budget is really so tight, then you shouldn't be doing any railway modelling at all, you've got many other money-related things to worry about well before hobbies.

 

*I'm excluding travel and/or parking costs of course. Take those into account though and it's still cheaper than one away visit to a Premier League football match.

At the risk of going off topic, I built a rake of 16mm 4 wheel coaches from card for little more than those 4 coffees.  Railway modelling isn't all about the latest expensive loco. 

[Phil Parker]

24 minutes ago, Listerboy said:

At the risk of going off topic, I built a rake of 16mm 4 wheel coaches from card for little more than those 4 coffees.  Railway modelling isn't all about the latest expensive loco. 

 

With my Garden Rail hat on, we regularly feature articles on budget builds where even locos are created for less than the price of a OO coach. Cheap modelling is out there if you want it...

[Ninefingers]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

They have other means to communicate - FaceBook, Twitter, Instagram and probably others I am too old to be aware or bothered with.

I don't hold with the fact that age is a factor in not knowing about things. The internet has been around for what, thirty years at least? We should all know how to use it by now.

[Ian Hargrave]

4 minutes ago, Ninefingers said:

I don't hold with the fact that age is a factor in not knowing about things. The internet has been around for what, thirty years at least? We should all know how to use it by now.

“We should all……”  ? Says you. Many citizens of my age shy away from it for a variety of reasons and adopt the view that it’s beyond their capabilities I’m afraid. ….whether you choose to hold with it or not. 

 

[woodenhead]

38 minutes ago, Ninefingers said:

I don't hold with the fact that age is a factor in not knowing about things. The internet has been around for what, thirty years at least? We should all know how to use it by now.

I know how to use it, heck I even build web applications used by my employer.

 

I just said I don't know all the various social media avenues because it's not something I need to know and there are too many rabbit holes to go down to begin looking. I've seen enough TikTok nonsense on Reddit to know I don't want to ever look directly at it, I've seen enough hints of Twitch streaming on YouTube to know that's not for me either.  I am sure there are more social media sites that people are trying out and developing but as it's not where anyone I know inhabits I have no need or desire to go there.

[rogerzilla]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I think the modern "world of work" militates against younger people getting involved at organisational/management level in our club structure.

 

There's a lot of talk about "flexibility" but, in many cases it only seems to cut one way.

 

A predictable retirement age, let alone an early one, is also rapidly becoming a thing of the past, as are final salary pensions. 

 

So, any new blood entering the highly active segment of the hobby, which drives the exhibition scene, isn't as new as it used to be.....

 

John

Even if you can afford it, retirement on an occupational pension was shifted from 50 to 55 a few years ago - that's a big jump.  It'll be 57 in 2028.  I'm off on my 55th birthday - been working for 39 years!

[woodenhead]

3 hours ago, MarkSG said:

I also haven't seen, at least in the information published by Warley MRC, that declining attendance was one of the reasons for calling it a day. Of course, anyone with information from closer to the source than me may disagree with that, but I still have a feeling that the statement posted by the club would have mentioned it if it was the case. It's not as if there would be any reason to keep it confidential. On the contrary, the statement on the website starts by saying that the 2023 show was successful with many thousands of visitors. I see no reason to disagree with that. 

 

There certainly was a big crowd waiting to get in on the Saturday morning and there were lots of people about during the day but it did feel there was a lot more space about this year whether that was a mix of less visitors (but still enough to cover the costs etc), less or smaller exhibits, less demonstrators or less retail (no Rails for example) or just using more of the hall only WMRC will know.

 

But to me and I can see where WMRC are coming from, for thirty years they have been seen as the premier show, the big one and always full of new exhibits, a big centre piece, lots of announcements expected and for the punters lots of bargains.  This year I noted that the announcements that in the past might have been made on the Saturday morning seemed to occur in the two weeks leading up to it. 

 

And people went there expecting bargains and seem upset when they didn't find them, so basically they want to see the cost of going repaid by getting ridiculously good prices on model trains.  But, if you've been looking at the media for several months you'll have noted that the big shops had had very regular promotions, some almost to the point they were beginning to sound like the DFS of model railways for their constantly evolving sale items.  So to expect the retailers who were at Warley to be making ridiculous price cuts in the middle of a cost of living challenge seems like asking them to bankrupt themselves not recognising that retailers too are impacted by a cost of living challenge.

 

So for the organisers at WMRC you can imagine the pressure to remain the biggest, the best against a world that is only getting more expensive whilst it's customers want everything cheap then each year is going to be a bigger and bigger risk.  If you're not getting any younger and when help is asked for it's not forthcoming because those other people are not able to help or seeing the stress it places on others is so greart they don't want it, then you know it's time to put a stop to something before something bad happens. 

 

By doing this, WMRC can go back to something more manageable, something that the younger members can be involved in without the pressure of it being 'Warley', without the massive financial risk of a train strike or worse a weather event, without having to garner large amounts of retail support or charge such a large entry fee and probably not also have to spend so much time planning the event.

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

I'm pretty sure that some people spend more time on web forums than actually modelling, as well 😉

 

 

 

I can do that when I'm doing other things such as work though!

 

People do realise you can have more than one "tab" open at a time or have such a thing as a device or phone with them constantly?

 

This morning I opened a shop. Did some work. Went for a quick pint. Came home. Football all day. Bought some stuff online. Browsed a bit on here. Watched a few videos. Listened to a bit of music. Might go out later.

 

Pretty productive day I would say.

 

 

Jason

[stewartingram]

Changing the subject a little, but still relevant to the Warley NEC show...

 

Does anyone have a complete list of all the 1:1 exhibits that were shown over the years? Including not only the 'centrepiece, but the extras such as n.g. locos, wagons, and buses etc ?

[MarkSG]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

There certainly was a big crowd waiting to get in on the Saturday morning and there were lots of people about during the day but it did feel there was a lot more space about this year whether that was a mix of less visitors (but still enough to cover the costs etc), less or smaller exhibits, less demonstrators or less retail (no Rails for example) or just using more of the hall only WMRC will know.

 

There were fewer trade stands in 2023 than 2022, at least if we assume that the versions of the traders page from the website archived at archive.org is correct. My gut feeling is that that's primarily what made it feel more spacious, rather than significantly fewer visitors, although of course attendance may have been down a bit as well. But a reduction in trade stands would, of course, also be a reduction in income to the club. I don't think that, alone, would have made it unviable. But I do wonder if part of the thinking was that if visitors were less pleased by the trade last year, they'd be less likely to come next time. And, if so, that could have led to a vicious circle whereby less trade makes it less attractive to visitors, and fewer potential customers make it less attractive to traders, and therefore both would dwindle until it did stop making a profit. So maybe going out now, on a reasonable high and before there was any risk to the club, was felt better than carrying on until there was a real possibilities that economics might have forced the organisers' hands.

[Albie the plumber]

Very sad to hear of this though I understand the reasons why .

Will miss my weekends in Brum as I often 'stayed in town' to take in the German Market and lots of other cool stuff that the city had to offer.

I'd long forgotten that at the end of the day , the show was organised by volunteers who did it for no reward .

Maybe I shouldn't have forgotten but I'm grateful to the people who made it happen all the same .

[sixteen 12by 10s]

having read I a lot of comments on this subject, and been privileged to know some additional information, the problem is not the lack of young people getting involved in the hobby, but the lack of young people who have the skills or the aptitude to carry it out running a large exhibition 

Edited January 13 by sixteen 12by 10s