End of Warley National Show - but now it's not the end of a show at the NEC.

[ruggedpeak]

15 hours ago, jmg123 said:

I got my kato diorama sets Sunday afternoon from the Gaugemaster stand next door, but it did have to search them out.

 

Thanks, missed that 😟 - will stick to trying to join my Mosslanda modules together!!

 

 

[Pacific231G]

3 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

 Most model railway exhibitions are run by clubs, who need the show to turn a profit as it's an important way of financially supporting the club for the rest of the year. But there are other sectors where it's acceptable for a show to make a loss, because the ancillary benefits to the community of having the show go ahead justify the need to subsidise it. 

I can't help thinking that part of the problem is the over-reliance many clubs have on their annual show to fund their activities rather than it being a showcase for the hobby or to attract new members. The only other amateur activity I can think of where the public pays for the members' hobby is amateur drama but, even there, the income from ticket sales usually just pays for the costs of the production itself rather than for the group's other activities (if there are any) such as room hire for  weekly meetings etc. paid for from subs.

 

This dependence on exhibitions for a club's own running costs doesn't seem to apply in other countries (and I've helped with layouts at several shows in France). I don't think it applies either to the specialist model railway societies in this country  where the annual subs generally cover the society's running costs and an annual show (if there is one) is as much about being a get together and a showcase for their branch of the hobby as "putting on a show for the public". 

If the purpose of a show is simply to attract enough visitors to turn a profit for the club then there are far less opportunities to share interests with and socialise with fellow modellers . Not being able to discuss a layout with its builder because they're too busy keeping something running for the public is something you don't really experience at shows in other countries nor at those like ExpoEM, Globalrail, or the late and much missed ExpoEM.  ExpoNG 

 

 

Edited January 16 by Pacific231G
correcting mistype of ExpoEM for ExpoNG

[Chris M]

54 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I can't help thinking that part of the problem is the over-reliance many clubs have on their annual show to fund their activities rather than it being a showcase for the hobby or to attract new members. The only other amateur activity I can think of where the public pays for the members' hobby is amateur drama but, even there, the income from ticket sales usually pays just covers the costs of the production itself rather than the group's other activities (if there are any) such as room hire for  weekly meetings etc. paid for from subs.

 

This dependence on exhibtions for a club's own running costs doesn't seem to apply in other countries (and I've helped with layouts at several shows in France). I don't think it applies either to the specialist model railway societies in this country  where the annual subs generally cover the society's running costs and an annual show (if there is one) is as much about being a get together and a showcase for their branch of the hobby as "putting on a show for the public". 

If the purpose of a show is simply to attract enough visitors to turn a profit for the club then there are far less opportunities to share interests with and socialise with fellow modellers . Not being able to discuss a layout with its builder because they're too busy keeping something running for the public is something you don't really experience at shows in other countries nor at those like ExpoEM, Globalrail, or the late and much missed ExpoEM.  

 

 

Interesting comment. My view is that I give priority to running trains at an exhibition because, after all , that is what most paying punters want to see. I do try to have a member of the crew available to chat to visitors but that is a nice to have rather than an essential. At open days - such as the Warley club free open day on 18th February - talking to visitors takes priority over running trains.

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

 

I can't help thinking that part of the problem is the over-reliance many clubs have on their annual show to fund their activities rather than it being a showcase for the hobby or to attract new members.

 

That sounds familiar when our treasurer was worried after the show profit was down just before Covid. 
I had a two part response. 
Part of the reduction was he hadn’t included the secondhand sales profits to the club as they were a ‘one off’ and I argued they should be included as the show provided the customers and it was far cheaper than renting a stall at a bring and buy or putting it on eBay. 
Secondly I asked why we put on the show? Was it for the hobby or to make money? The club was already self sufficient and the show profits had been used to finance extras like subsidies for outings, a projector and some into layouts. None of those extras were essential they just happened quicker as we had the money from the show. 
The overall consensus was that it was a shop window to share the fun of the hobby so as long as it broke even it was worth doing. Post Covid losing the big venue meant a scaled down show but pleasingly a similar profit as the overheads were far less and with less layouts less risk. 
Some people were worried about the money side because some people are more obsessed by having a large buffer for hard times. I think the true value of the club came a few years ago when a financial disaster resulted in members stumping up to keep the club afloat and the success in doing that paying back all the loans. Most were perfectly happy to write off the contribution as it’s shared but that positivity and lack of angst and arguing over it ultimately saved the club and allowed it to recover fast. 
Maybe we just need to stop worrying and divert the effort to meeting up and playing trains at friends, shows or pop to the pub for a meal? 

[pete55]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

...........or the late and much missed ExpoEM.  

 

 

 

What do you mean? 

Expo EM is not late or missing! Both the May Bracknell ExpoEM and the August Wakefield Expo EM are still ongoing since lockdowns.

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

Interesting comment. My view is that I give priority to running trains at an exhibition because, after all , that is what most paying punters want to see. I do try to have a member of the crew available to chat to visitors but that is a nice to have rather than an essential. At open days - such as the Warley club free open day on 18th February - talking to visitors takes priority over running trains.

Indeed and that's really my point. If the purpose of the show is to attract as many paying punters as possible then running trains for them has to be the priority. If the purpose is more to showcase the hobby to anyone who might be interested and to share the layout with other modellers (or would be modellers) then being able to chat to visitors is not a nice to have but becomes essential.  Running it, while still important, is not then the only priority and you can even do things like letting a responsible visitor (often a youngster) have a go themselves. 

 

One of my fondest exhibition memories is of operating a French themed layout at a show in Paris and chatting to a local who regretted not having space in his apartment for a layout. I explained to him what an Inglenook Sidings was (not the layout I was with) and saw his eyes light up. Though I'll never know if that really did plant a seed it's  not something I'd have been able to do if I'd felt obliged to operate the layout non stop and that's probably why I generally prefer specialist shows to general exhibitions.

(On the other hand though French exhibitors tended to go to the other extreme and do very little actual operation but just run a train round and round or up and down the layout. seeing us actually shunting train seemed a real novelty though that's less true now than it used to be) 

Edited January 16 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

8 minutes ago, pete55 said:

 

What do you mean? 

Expo EM is not late or missing! Both the May Bracknell ExpoEM and the August Wakefield Expo EM are still ongoing since lockdowns.

Oops. I did of course mean to type "... the late and much missed ExpoNG".

I am very much looking forward to ExpoEM which is one of my favourite exhibitions even though I model in H0 and H0m. 

Edited January 16 by Pacific231G

[fulton]

It has always been my view that a clubs running expenses must be covered by the subscriptions, an exhibition is an extra, the club I used to be active in, still a life member, did this, the exhibition account built up a surplus so if/when the exhibition made a loss it did not impact on the normal club finances. An exhibition, in my view, is a window on our hobby, not a means of making money, one of the nicest shows I exhibited at was organized by my area NMRA group, a small show on Hastings seafront, venue normally used for art exhibitions, it was never expected to make a profit, we had spare funds to promote the hobby, nominal entry fee, most visitors were out for a day at the seaside, lots of good questions and comments, I think we gave a good impression of the hobby.

[Barry O]

We never make a profit .. we do, as a club, like to have an excess of income over expenditure.. 

 

It's great if you have a lot of members with deep pockets who can cover all club costs.. we have a fair few juniors who don't have a job or that much money so can afford what they can afford. 

 

Our exhibition surpluses are kept ready for the day we need to move to a larger club room.. 

 

Baz

[Mike Bellamy]

3 hours ago, fulton said:

It has always been my view that a clubs running expenses must be covered by the subscriptions, an exhibition is an extra, the club I used to be active in, still a life member, did this, the exhibition account built up a surplus so if/when the exhibition made a loss it did not impact on the normal club finances. 

 

1 hour ago, Barry O said:

We never make a profit .. we do, as a club, like to have an excess of income over expenditure.. 

Our exhibition surpluses are kept ready for the day we need to move to a larger club room.. 

 

We are the same at Mickleover. When we first started the Derby show about 40 years ago, we were raising money to move out of the church hall and get our own clubrooms. Although it was never actually written into the rules, as Treasurer, I made sure subscriptions and weekly fees covered the rent and running costs, the Village Hall show paid for layouts and the Assembly Rooms (then Moorways and finally Derby Roundhouse shows), went into the building fund. We were fortunate to be able to rent and then buy our building at the Community Centre, which then enables us to open the clubroom as part of the exhibition. A surveyor has said that the building isn't in danger of imminent collapse but we should soon start to consider a replacement - but the problem is that building costs are rising faster than our income as we can no longer use Derby Roundhouse as it was closed to all external events by Derby College during the first lockdown. Substantial deposits for the next three years were returned - but we would rather have been able to continue with the show.

 

Going back to Warley - their clubroom shows where the surplus has been invested - the Ltd Co owns the building and rents it to the club. The club pays a market rent to the Ltd Co but then the Ltd Co donates it's surplus to the club. Same money going around in circles but each of the transactions have tax advantages. All explained to us by Paul Jones who just happened to be an Accountant, when we were considering the same arrangement but eventually the committee decided that it would be too onerous (couldn't be bothered) to consider how we might meet 'Charitable Aims'. I applaud @Chris M and WMRC for the work they have done, and continue to do, in encouraging youngsters into the hobby with tuition sessions and open days etc. Some of our members just thought that an open day was an opportunity to play trains all day and ignore visitors.

.

 

 

 

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I think I have already paid thanks to Paul Jones, Roger Scanlon and Chris M, but if I haven't, I do now. I was fortunate to exhibit the same layout twice (suitably upgraded) and I consider that a great honour.

I hope and trust that the club will find a smaller/cheaper venue that allows them to put on future shows.

 

[Strathwood]

Just wondering what the trade will do with regards to launching their NEW models to the modelling fraternity.

 

Aside from that, Covid forced a number of larger commercial venues to reconsider their own positions with regards to health & safety regulations, security, insurance and as commercial concerns their own profits too. The results have seen the venues tighten their rules, increase their costs to show's producers, which in turn have been forced upon the traders at the shows along with raising entry prices.

 

Add to this many of the old stalwarts I recall from many years ago when I was on a team organising a large three day show in Australia, we relied heavily on loyal members goodwill and free labour (save for their free entry and daily feeds and endless tea & coffee of course). This made the show viable not only financially, but also gave otherwise shy or less active members the opportunity to take part and to be groomed for other responsibilities within a large club to help with its running. It also helped considerably towards raising funds to buy our own clubrooms and to kit them out. Just like any business, model railway clubs need to have good leadership. Not only financially, but also in the encouragement of existing members interests, their various factions, steam, diesel, UK, overseas, narrow gauge etc.

 

In my experience things can become stale with some stagnant leadership members who whilst giving their time and efforts across many years become unapproachable in time. When the time for an AGM comes around, there may be dissent in the ranks, but none are prepared to be brave enough to stand up and perhaps be counted and maybe lose face themselves in any voting to provide the new blood, enthusiasm and the changes that maybe being sought by the membership from those at the top. Does this sound familiar in any form of club or society within or without our hobby?

 

Going back to exhibitions and some of the traders, as we are all getting ever older, Covid was the good chance for many volunteers and some of the traders to consider their own health and ages as to whether they were still fit enough for what can be involved, or whether they felt it was time for a rest themselves and perhaps instead be just a simple visitor and having an enjoyable day out from the other side of the fence for once. 

 

I recall watching myself from when we did regular shows starting back in the mid-eighties watching "seniors" often almost knocking themselves out in trying to keep up and not being the ones to let the side down. All very brave and they were great team players for sure, whilst some other club members did very little aside from pontificate and groan about leadership in the wings. In hindsight I can recall several characters from years ago who are sadly no longer with us who put themselves second and their club first, often with unfortunate results to their own health and their home life too, with very little thanks from some members sadly.

 

Going forward it could be a breath of fresh air perhaps to one or two of the other clubs and by using more economic venues to perhaps share in the wealth being spread around to other regional shows, including the Warley Club themselves who may elect to step back a little and focus on a smaller more manageable and perhaps profitable show for their club in the dawn of a new outlook on how their club is being run, and how it can best serve its membership.

 

As an outsider to this show I thank all of those over the years for their efforts as I know just how much it takes and wish them well going forward.

 

Kevin

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Strathwood said:

"Just wondering what the trade will do with regards to launching their NEW models to the modelling fraternity."

Kevin

 

The RTR suppliers already have plenty of outlets for their product news. RMweb and other forums, magazine reviews together with PR announcements and advertising, as well as other major shows such as Alexander Palace. Bachmann already take a stand at York and I am sure that several other exhibition managers would be happy to have the RTR producers take a presence at their show, to raise its "profile".

 

 

[JSpencer]

It is amazing how many newspapers (press) have been exaggerating this.  Amazing but not surprising.

 

It has gone from one show not running anymore due to aging demographic of that club, to - what gets implied - the whole hobby being doomed by the same aging demographic. Like as if 99% of model railway enthusiasts are over 75 or something.

 

 

[Not Jeremy]

10 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

It is amazing how many newspapers (press) have been exaggerating this.  Amazing but not surprising.

 

It has gone from one show not running anymore due to aging demographic of that club, to - what gets implied - the whole hobby being doomed by the same aging demographic. Like as if 99% of model railway enthusiasts are over 75 or something.

 

 

 

You're right, that is a ridiculous percentage, it's more likely nearer to 95%.....

[PaulRhB]

46 minutes ago, Not Jeremy said:

 

You're right, that is a ridiculous percentage, it's more likely nearer to 95%.....

95% of me’s over 75? That explains the last six months at least 😜

 

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

as if 99% of model railway enthusiasts are over 75 or something.

 

[mikeford2002uk]

Just to add what has already been said multiple times. As a frequent visitor over the last fifteen years to Warley and the NEC , I’ve appreciated the strengths and weaknesses of both but have enormously enjoyed the weekend and appreciated the hard work by multiple members of the Warley club, to make the show the success it was for so long.

I’d like to think (but have no information of course) that some collective great minds are being focused on a replacement for an Autumn showcase for this great hobby. Too late for this year but perhaps something in 2025 ?

I also wondered if the organisational model of Model Rail Scotland with its Association of Model Railway societies in Scotland (AMRSS) could be used as a template, for something south of the border, with joint management of the show arranged through several model clubs, not just one ?

Just a though, we live in hope. But thanks for the memories

 

Mike

[Invicta Informant]

Aging demographic? I was elected to the Committee of my club when I was in my late 20s in 2018 and in 2023 I was elected Secretary.

 

My Dad, who is not into model railways, has found the mainstream media coverage of all this so-called doom and gloom for the hobby very patronising and belittling.

 

Young and young-ish people are around in this hobby and are very much actively involved. The Chatham & District MRC has, from what I have heard, had quite influx of new young members post-Covid and they are back organising a show at Chatham Dockyard in July, and I am very much looking forward it.

[Andrew Biro]

2 hours ago, mikeford2002uk said:

Just to add what has already been said multiple times. As a frequent visitor over the last fifteen years to Warley and the NEC , I’ve appreciated the strengths and weaknesses of both but have enormously enjoyed the weekend and appreciated the hard work by multiple members of the Warley club, to make the show the success it was for so long.

I’d like to think (but have no information of course) that some collective great minds are being focused on a replacement for an Autumn showcase for this great hobby. Too late for this year but perhaps something in 2025 ?

I also wondered if the organisational model of Model Rail Scotland with its Association of Model Railway societies in Scotland (AMRSS) could be used as a template, for something south of the border, with joint management of the show arranged through several model clubs, not just one ?

Just a though, we live in hope. But thanks for the memories

 

Mike

Well the CMRA used to do something like that...... but......

[Pacific231G]

Just now, Andrew Biro said:

Well the CMRA used to do something like that...... but......

The CMRA used to also organise a modelling/bring what you're working on  day in Watford just for members of affiliated clubs. Although I'm in an affiliated group, I've never been too sure how the CMRA worked in that regard but the show was always well worth going to and it seemed to make sense for a number of groups to combine to put on a bigger show than they'd probably manage individually. Loss of venue (twice) seems to have stopped the CMRA show but I don't know if anyone is working on it for the future. 

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, mikeford2002uk said:

I also wondered if the organisational model of Model Rail Scotland with its Association of Model Railway societies in Scotland (AMRSS) could be used as a template, for something south of the border, with joint management of the show arranged through several model clubs, not just one ?

The Amherst Model Railway show in Springfield MA (The USA's largest and bigger than Warley) is organised by the Amherst Railway Society which encompasses all types of railway enthusiasts, such as Heritage Lines, Main line enthusiasts, Modellers, Photographers etc.

 

https://amherstrail.org/

 

The show is next Weekend 28th/29th and will probably have some Virtual Railfan coverage as it has done in recent years.

Incidentally Hattons had a promotional stand for the last couple of years!

[Ravenser]

3 hours ago, mikeford2002uk said:

 

I also wondered if the organisational model of Model Rail Scotland with its Association of Model Railway societies in Scotland (AMRSS) could be used as a template, for something south of the border, with joint management of the show arranged through several model clubs, not just one ?

Just a though, we live in hope. But thanks for the memories

 

Mike

 

The largest association in England is CMRA .  The website lists 117 member clubs/societies, assuming I haven't miscounted  CMRA membership

 

For decades before the pandemic, they organised a well-regarded sizeable 2 day show at St Albans and latterly Stevenage (when it was my nearest large show) .

 

It has folded, firstly because David Crossley the show manager is well into his 70s, had a stroke several years before Covid , and didn't want to do it any more. Despite several appeals over several years nobody stepped forward to replace him. And the Stevenage venue has lost its car park, a new venue would be needed - and nobody seems interested in finding one.

 

A General Meeting was called in April 2022. It was possible to join by Zoom. There were I think 3 people in the room, and a total attendance of 12 (out of 117 members), with a few apologies from other organisations. I was one of the 12, on Zoom. 

 

There was no real discussion about or interest in reviving the show - just "no show manager, no venue, so no prospect of holding a show"

 

With Stevenage and Peterborough gone there are now no decent sized shows in Eastern England between the M25 and Spalding.

 

It was said that ending delegate meetings had been a mistake, but in the last 2 years I'm not aware of any further meetings being called. The website is still being updated, fliers for shows are still being circulated and I presume the exhibition barrier is still available.

 

The combined populations of Hertfordshire, Essex, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire are over 4.5 million - not far shy of Scotland. There are no two day shows in the area, and in Essex only a limited number of small 1 day events

 

I suspect it would take active support from 5-6 clubs to revive the show somewhere in that area. At least I think the former SAMRAC , which ran a show at Crawley , had about that number of members

 

By the support of 5-6 clubs I mean that the club membership would need to want such a show and be willing actively to make it happen. No club committee member is going to volunteer their club unless they are aware that their members actively want a show to happen.

 

A lot of members of those 117 organisations must read RMWeb. If they want this situation to change , I suggest they find out who is their club's CMRA rep and speak to him. If the response to enquiries as to who is the representative is "So are you volunteering to do the job??" you might as well call the bluff and say yes. It is not particularly onerous, especially at present

[ianmianmianm]

I do note that Key Model World has a wider model show running at the NEC in April to which they have invited the Warley MRC; it's a bit of a shame that they couldn't have pitched into the existing Warley show at year end to make it more of a joint venture - in the way that IMREX eventually led to Ally Pally. I know the Key venture isn't just railways and I am sure there are all sorts of good reasons why that collaboration hasn't happened. It's just a shame that we now have most of the bigger shows in a 2-month window early in the year with really Stafford and Manch at the end of the year, assuming GETS still happens as well perhaps.

 

[Chris M]

4 hours ago, ianmianmianm said:

I do note that Key Model World has a wider model show running at the NEC in April to which they have invited the Warley MRC; it's a bit of a shame that they couldn't have pitched into the existing Warley show at year end to make it more of a joint venture - in the way that IMREX eventually led to Ally Pally. I know the Key venture isn't just railways and I am sure there are all sorts of good reasons why that collaboration hasn't happened. It's just a shame that we now have most of the bigger shows in a 2-month window early in the year with really Stafford and Manch at the end of the year, assuming GETS still happens as well perhaps.

 

Speaking personally and not on behalf of Warley club I would not want to be working with people who are paid for their efforts unless I was being paid as well. I like the Key Publishing team and I am strongly in agreement with Warley club showing support for Model World Live but I wouldn't want Key Publishing telling me what I could and couldn't do with the Warley NEC show. By stepping aside completely Warley club has left the door open for others, be it a club, group of clubs or business, to take up the mantle of putting on a National show. I very much doubt we will see a show with 90 layouts again in this country but it would be nice to be proven wrong. In the meantime I now regard Stafford with its circa 50 quality layouts as the premier English show.

[Gilbert]

7 hours ago, melmerby said:

The Amherst Model Railway show in Springfield MA (The USA's largest and bigger than Warley) is organised by the Amherst Railway Society which encompasses all types of railway enthusiasts, such as Heritage Lines, Main line enthusiasts, Modellers, Photographers etc.

 

https://amherstrail.org/

 

The show is next Weekend 28th/29th and will probably have some Virtual Railfan coverage as it has done in recent years.

Incidentally Hattons had a promotional stand for the last couple of years!

I have to assume its a very different financial model with (I think) everyone paying their way - our UK model of exhibitors getting their expenses (and their own hospitality area in some areas) is not the way over there...and traders/manufacturers outnumbered layouts about 15:1 when I attended in 2007.

Chris H