Peterborough North

[31A]

Good morning Brian, thank you - more food for thought!

 

Considering which of the above I would be likely to buy for my own layout, which only haas gods facilities for 'genera merchandise' I will vote for 

 

1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10

 

Banana vans - I have two of BR types at the moment so some variety would be welcome.

 

Fish vans - I have recently built both types from Parkside kits, but that's not to say I wouldn't buy some more.

 

Goods vans Diagrams 14-17 - I take it (without looking it up) these are the wooden underframe LNER vans.  Noting what you say about manufacturers tooling up for variants, I think this could give 9ft and 10ft wheelbases, vacuum and unbraked in both versions?  I think I'm right in saying Bachmann did the 10ft wb wooden underframe a while back for the 'short' fish van but have not used it for anything else.

 

Plywood sided van - coincidentally I saw one of these on a video I was watching last night (BTF "Fully Fitted Freight" - the telly was rubbish) and thought there's a gap in the market!  There was also a fruit van variant.

 

 

 

[great northern]

B17 has hustled away, as the platform is required for the 7.25 stopper to KX, not really a commuter train, as it certainly wouldn't get you to work by 0900.

 

V2 60874 has, at least temporarily, a new lease of life. The two new V2 chassis are going under the Rathbone improved ones, which freed up a sweeter running one for 60874. Tim also managed to swop over one of Ian's improved Cartazzi trucks, so it now both looks, and runs, rather better.

 

 

[BMacdermott]

55 minutes ago, 31A said:

Goods vans Diagrams 14-17 - I take it (without looking it up) these are the wooden underframe LNER vans.  Noting what you say about manufacturers tooling up for variants, I think this could give 9ft and 10ft wheelbases, vacuum and unbraked in both versions?  I think I'm right in saying Bachmann did the 10ft wb wooden underframe a while back for the 'short' fish van but have not used it for anything else.

 

Plywood sided van - coincidentally I saw one of these on a video I was watching last night (BTF "Fully Fitted Freight" - the telly was rubbish) and thought there's a gap in the market!  There was also a fruit van variant.

 

Thanks Steve

 

I'm not sure about wheelbase variations on these as I don't have any LNER wagon books that give Diagram Numbers. I have attached a PDF of what we wrote in The Guide to The 00 Wishlist Poll 2019.

 

Brian

 

 

Mini-Poll Goods Vans.pdf

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, BMacdermott said:

00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.4: Freight Stock – 4-wheel (Pre-1951)

 

Hello everyone

 

Welcome to the fourth in our series of seven Mini-Polls concerning rolling stock that has at least some connection with Peterborough North. I am running them on behalf of Gilbert. Mini-Poll No.5 Post-1951 4-wheel Freight Stock will follow next week, with No.6 Bogie Freight Stock the week after. We eventually finish with No.7 Departmental Stock.

 

There are no doubt hundreds of different freight vehicles that would have been seen at Peterborough North over the years, but our Mini-Polls can only capture a small number. If you feel something is missing, please let me know – with reasons – and I will try to fit it in later. I have listed Banana Vans 'generically' - but were any seen at or passing through PN?

 

 

Thanks Brian,

 

May I make some general comments about freight stock before giving you my vote as they will put my choices into context (and will apply to the subsequent polls).

 

The 'big picture' statistics (as I first read in Don Rowland's 'British Railways Wagons (the first half million)') that I always remind myself of are that, in 1948 British Railways inherited approx 1.25 million wagons (the exact number was never known). Of those, approx 500,000 were coal wagons. So I guess, it is pretty much these 1.25 million wagons that mini-poll No.4 is considering.

 

Putting aside coal wagons (which are a story all of their own), the large majority of the other wagons would be either opens or vans for general merchandise - and rather more of the former (with a hefty supply of tarpaulins), at least initially. Other vehicle types, including fish and banana vans, I would regard as specialist vehicles. Generally in small quantities and meant for specific 'flows' (routes, if you like). So, depending on your layout, you either need 20 fish vans - or you need none at all. As it happens, Gilbert's layout DOES need fish vans, as it is of course on the key route for the classic north sea coast fish traffic.

 

So my own personal mantra when it comes to freight stock for yer average layout is that the balance should be about 40% coal wagons; 50% vans/opens and then 10% 'specialist' wagons (including the bogie stock that you're covering later). I would - incidentally - lump cattle vans into the 'general' category, as they were pretty much seen all over the country and many stations had facilities for handling them.

 

The 'problem' is that the RTR boys love 'specialist' wagons(!) and they generally sell well. 'General' vans and opens are boring!

 

My question to you, therefore is where are the 'opens' on your list?(!) Or is it the case that you consider them already well provided? Certainly there is a decent LNER steel open (with the distinctive circular pockets) available RTR. And the wooden planked version has been done in the past (often incorrectly depicted as a coal wagon). (sorry - I'm hopeless with wagon diagram numbers!). But there must be plenty of other options available (noting that wagons travelled widely so ex-LMS wagons would be seen in ex-LNER territory etc).

 

The other type I would like to highlight are the many and various 6-wheel vans that were still to be seen running round in the early 1950s. Noting your comment earlier about the NPCCS poll being 'full up' is their space for those in a poll? Technical NPCCS, things like CCTs and former milk and fish types could often be seen in 'freight trains' equally as much as parcels trains. There's a virtually untapped, rich vein there for an enterprising RTR manufacturer.

 

So(!) with the above in mind, my votes would be for:

 

3. Cattle Wagon, 10ft wheelbase (1920s)

6. Goods Van 12-ton, Sliding Doors, Vertical Plank Sides, Horizontal Plank Ends with Small Shutters (Diags.14-17 of 1926)

7. Goods Van 12-ton, Sliding Doors, Plywood (Diags.172, 176, 195 of 1943-1948)

11. Single Bolster Wagon (inc BR Diags.1/400, 1/401, 1/402 & 1/405 of 1949 on)

 

But some opens would be nice!

 

Graham

[BMacdermott]

Post deleted. Back later!

Edited June 7, 2021 by BMacdermott

[LNER4479]

3 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Thanks Graham

 

I will reply fully shortly but I guess you meant Item 2 for Cattle Wagon? Your post stated 3.

 

Brian

I did mean cattle wagon Brian - I simply 'cut n pasted' from your list above where it is listed as item 3?

 

Or are we at crossed purposes?

[BMacdermott]

Hello Graham

 

Apologies... were at 'crossed purposes' but you replied quicker than I was able to delete my post!

 

Brian

[A Murphy]

3, 6, 8, 10, 11 for me.

 

Regards, 

 

Alastair

[great northern]

My poll choices are 3.4.5.6.7.10 and 12.

 

This is one area in which I did have the advantage of expert advice from Andy Rush, who worked in the area at the time. He told me that it was very rare to see identical vans together, and sadly that is what I have at present. Some different diagrams would therefore be a big help. Same applies with fish vans, and cattle wagons.

 

Andy said that by 1958 about one in ten mineral wagons would still be timber, so I could use a few. Bogie bolsters, plate and tube wagons also appeared. He started his general comments with "plenty of sheeted highfits in all trains". Later on he added "Lots of large crates were despatched, unsheeted, in highfits and lowfits, often in batches". This confirms Graham's observations above.

 

Not applicable to this particular poll, but if anyone could tell me what type of Presflos and what liveries would be appropriate for 1958, I would be most obliged. Andy told me I needed them, in batches, but couldn't help with liveries.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Graham

 

I fully take and agree with all your points and comments, particularly that the makers will often go for ‘the glamour types’ in advance of the ‘workhorses’ that aficionados such as ourselves would prefer. Let me set out some of the difficulties…

 

In my introduction, I said: “There are no doubt hundreds of different freight vehicles that would have been seen at Peterborough North over the years, but our Mini-Polls can only capture a small number. If you feel something is missing, please let me know – with reasons – and I will try to fit it in later.”

 

On Saturday, I supplied a long list of what has come to market since 2000 – the ‘broadly open’ types amongst those were as below, hence they are not on my list:

Bachmann Highfit Steel Open

Bachmann 1-plank Lowfit

Bachmann 3-plank Open

Bachmann Shocbar Open

Bachmann Pipe Wagon

Bachmann Fitted Tube

Dapol 4-plank Open

Dapol 5-plank Open 9ft Wheelbase

Dapol 7-plank Open 9ft Wheelbase

Oxford 6-plank General Merchandise - LNER

Oxford 7-plank Wagon

Rapido SECR 5- & 7-Plank Wagons

 

In The 00 Wishlist Poll 2019 we listed a total of 97 individual steam era wagons along with 17 ‘catch all’ titles such as SECR Wagons, Vans & Brake Vans – which include ‘opens’’ – as we simply had no room to list everything. The specifically-noted ‘opens’ among those were:

 

GWR 9ft Wheelbase Opens

GWR 10ft Wheelbase Opens

GWR Open Shock Wagons

SR 5-plank Open

SR 8-plank Open 9ft & 10ft Wheelbase

SR Container Wagon 9ft & 10ft Wheelbase (could be used for what were known as ‘invalid cars’)

SR Container Wagon 18ft 7in Wheelbase (ditto)

LMS General Merchandise Opens (Diag.1666 etc)

LMS/LNER/BR Unfitted Tube Wagon

LMS/LNER/BR Lowfit – 1-plank

LMS/BR Medium Goods – 3-plank

(BR) Continental Ferry Wagons – Open

BR Medium Goods – Steel 13-ton

BR High Goods – Open 13-ton

BR High Goods – Shochood B

BR High Goods – Shocroof A

 

Note that we had no specific LNER types!

 

Within the 2019 Poll, we listed 68 NPCCS items. As far as 6-wheelers were concerned, that was split as:

8 – Milk Tankers (and Trailer Carriers)

6 – BG or CCT types

3 – Fish Vans

 

I am happy to run other Mini-Polls for you in the future, but that will be subject to Gilbert agreeing.

 

Brian

[jollysmart]

1,4,5,6,7.  My choices, more variety of banana vans always welcome, fish vans useful and a variety of goods vans a staple.

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Graham

 

I fully take and agree with all your points and comments, particularly that the makers will often go for ‘the glamour types’ in advance of the ‘workhorses’ that aficionados such as ourselves would prefer. Let me set out some of the difficulties…

 

In my introduction, I said: “There are no doubt hundreds of different freight vehicles that would have been seen at Peterborough North over the years, but our Mini-Polls can only capture a small number. If you feel something is missing, please let me know – with reasons – and I will try to fit it in later.”

 

On Saturday, I supplied a long list of what has come to market since 2000 – the ‘broadly open’ types amongst those were as below, hence they are not on my list:

Bachmann Highfit Steel Open

Bachmann 1-plank Lowfit

Bachmann 3-plank Open

Bachmann Shocbar Open

Bachmann Pipe Wagon

Bachmann Fitted Tube

Dapol 4-plank Open

Dapol 5-plank Open 9ft Wheelbase

Dapol 7-plank Open 9ft Wheelbase

Oxford 6-plank General Merchandise - LNER

Oxford 7-plank Wagon

Rapido SECR 5- & 7-Plank Wagons

 

In The 00 Wishlist Poll 2019 we listed a total of 97 individual steam era wagons along with 17 ‘catch all’ titles such as SECR Wagons, Vans & Brake Vans – which include ‘opens’’ – as we simply had no room to list everything. The specifically-noted ‘opens’ among those were:

 

GWR 9ft Wheelbase Opens

GWR 10ft Wheelbase Opens

GWR Open Shock Wagons

SR 5-plank Open

SR 8-plank Open 9ft & 10ft Wheelbase

SR Container Wagon 9ft & 10ft Wheelbase (could be used for what were known as ‘invalid cars’)

SR Container Wagon 18ft 7in Wheelbase (ditto)

LMS General Merchandise Opens (Diag.1666 etc)

LMS/LNER/BR Unfitted Tube Wagon

LMS/LNER/BR Lowfit – 1-plank

LMS/BR Medium Goods – 3-plank

(BR) Continental Ferry Wagons – Open

BR Medium Goods – Steel 13-ton

BR High Goods – Open 13-ton

BR High Goods – Shochood B

BR High Goods – Shocroof A

 

Note that we had no specific LNER types!

 

Within the 2019 Poll, we listed 68 NPCCS items. As far as 6-wheelers were concerned, that was split as:

8 – Milk Tankers (and Trailer Carriers)

6 – BG or CCT types

3 – Fish Vans

 

I am happy to run other Mini-Polls for you in the future, but that will be subject to Gilbert agreeing.

 

Brian

Thanks Brian,

 

No specific request from me re future polls; just happy to be in general agreement over the types and mix of vehicles.

 

I'd love to post some prototype photos but would probably run into copyright issues. However, if I may, these two pictures illustrate our approach to putting together what we believe to be representative goods trains for running on Shap:

 

This is the 'early BR' Class D goods (it carries the proper lamp code at a show!). This is based on a 1952 Eric Bruton picture and the front half of the train at least is 'correct' or as correct as we can reasonably make it in terms of vehicle types (the rear portion is a bit more of a general rag bag!). There's some RTR in here but otherwise kit-built items have been used as they're almost all 'big 4' wagons. There's not so many opens here but the prototype picture did show a fair proportion of vans.

 

From later on in the 1950s, this is my van train, gradually assembled over the years from Parkside kit builds, with a few RTRs thrown in to the mix. This gets its inspiration from innumerable pictures of such trains but one in particular - on the S&C actually but I'm happy it's representative. I think this illustrates dear old Andy Rush's point of 'no two vans alike' that Gilbert has referred to. It was definitely the look I was aiming for. The S&C picture is actually as late as 1965 when you would have thought that the BR 'standard' vans would dominate yet there's still a glorious mix of body and roof styles.

 

Hope that's of interest.

 

 

[gwrrob]

Although predominantly a GWR/WR modeller , I can make use of 3,6,7 and 11. Most of them would fit in with stock from other regions in the same train. The single bolster would compliment the TMC/Bachmann double one nicely.

[Jon4470]

3,6,11 for me this time.

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

A picture on page 119 of Rail Centres: Peterborough shows three Stanton wagons in 1965 (according to the caption).

 

Are these LMS Diag.1806 Cement Hoppers?

 

Were they 'regulars' at PN?

 

Brian

 

 

[chris45lsw]

Diagram 14-17 were all 9ft wheelbase:-

 

14 - wood u/f, unfitted

15 - steel u/f, unfitted

16 - wood u/f , AVB

17 - steel u/f, AVB

 

94 was also a wood u/f, AVB van but with 10ft wb.  Many of these were subsequently converted to Fruit vans.

 

My vote goes to 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11

 

Chris KT 

[Dunsignalling]

I love building wagon kits so am not really interested in r-t-r duplications.

 

My selection would be 1, 3, 8, and 11, plus any containers that aren't already available to add variety.

 

John

[Mark Saunders]

23 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello everyone

 

A picture on page 119 of Rail Centres: Peterborough shows three Stanton wagons in 1965 (according to the caption).

 

Are these LMS Diag.1806 Cement Hoppers?

 

Were they 'regulars' at PN?

 

Brian

 

 

They are not the LMS ones but Stanton had their own for either Lime or Cement!

[BMacdermott]

36 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I love building wagon kits so am not really interested in r-t-r duplications.

 

My selection would be 1, 3, 8, and 11, plus any containers that aren't already available to add variety.

 

John

 

Hello John

 

I have just re-read your post on Tony Wright's thread.

 

My apologies...I have mis-read it as you wanting to see RTR models made, whereas you were referring to Parkside Kits.

 

I haven't logged your votes above on the basis that you are not interested in duplications and any votes here must be on the basis of what you would realistically buy if ever made.

 

Apologies again.

 

Brian

 

 

[BMacdermott]

19 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

They are not the LMS ones but Stanton had their own for either Lime or Cement!

 

Thanks Mark

 

Any idea if they were 'regulars' at PN?

Brian

[Dunsignalling]

15 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello John

 

I have just re-read your post on Tony Wright's thread.

 

My apologies...I have mis-read it as you wanting to see RTR models made, whereas you were referring to Parkside Kits.

 

I haven't logged your votes above on the basis that you are not interested in duplications and any votes here must be on the basis of what you would realistically buy if ever made.

 

Apologies again.

 

Brian

 

 

Hi Brian,

 

The ones I picked I would buy. I have produced an approximation of a 10'wb LNER cattle van by converting the Parkside kit for the 9' version but r-t-r is easily good enough to beat it nowadays.

 

I'll also be getting the forthcoming r-t-r LNER banana van from whoever is doing it.

 

The fish and goods vans I already have in abundance one way or the other.

 

My single bolsters are ex-SECR from the Cambrian kit so a different pair would be fine.

 

One omission I noted from your list was a 10' wb fitted 6-plank, I'm just completing one from a Cambrian body cross-kitted with the underframe from a Parkside Lowfit, but I wouldn't mind a couple more by an easier route!

 

Regards

 

John

 

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[BMacdermott]

Many thanks John

 

All votes duly logged and acknowledged with the 'Thx' tick.

 

I didn't list the LNER 6-plank as it is already made RTR by Oxford. Having had some good chats earlier in the thread with Graham (LNER4479), I have made some alterations to the content of Mini-Poll No.5 (next Monday) to include more 'Opens''.

 

Brian

[Clive Mortimore]

3 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks Brian,

 

No specific request from me re future polls; just happy to be in general agreement over the types and mix of vehicles.

 

I'd love to post some prototype photos but would probably run into copyright issues. However, if I may, these two pictures illustrate our approach to putting together what we believe to be representative goods trains for running on Shap:

 

This is the 'early BR' Class D goods (it carries the proper lamp code at a show!). This is based on a 1952 Eric Bruton picture and the front half of the train at least is 'correct' or as correct as we can reasonably make it in terms of vehicle types (the rear portion is a bit more of a general rag bag!). There's some RTR in here but otherwise kit-built items have been used as they're almost all 'big 4' wagons. There's not so many opens here but the prototype picture did show a fair proportion of vans.

 

From later on in the 1950s, this is my van train, gradually assembled over the years from Parkside kit builds, with a few RTRs thrown in to the mix. This gets its inspiration from innumerable pictures of such trains but one in particular - on the S&C actually but I'm happy it's representative. I think this illustrates dear old Andy Rush's point of 'no two vans alike' that Gilbert has referred to. It was definitely the look I was aiming for. The S&C picture is actually as late as 1965 when you would have thought that the BR 'standard' vans would dominate yet there's still a glorious mix of body and roof styles.

 

Hope that's of interest.

 

 

There is a desperate need for a decent LMS van with wrinkly tin ends. Poor Graham is having to make do with the squat Bachmann abomination, 2nd and 4th vans top photo. 

[Sandhole]

There is an Oxford 4wheeled GWR brake van, the same as the old K's kit.
Looking forward to seeing youe wagon polls.
Regards,
Chris.

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

My picks would be 1,2,3,6 &10, nice mixed train, a few more Pre Grouping vans would be helpful.

 

manna