bigwordsmith Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Gilbert - if you've no use for your langley people I'll offer you a few bob for them! @Brian - is that 'Y' or 'BY' something that Hornby's R4467 could be repainted to represent on the East Coast? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted February 2, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 2, 2014 Hello Tim and Mallard The postings about the vans need a little clarification…. The 8-wheel van is a Southern Region Van B; the 4-wheel vehicle is a Van BY. These were fitted with Guard accommodation whereas GUVs weren’t – hence the ‘B’ in the description. Neither is specifically for newspaper traffic, although either might well have been used for such. Those that were ‘dedicated’ to newspaper traffic carried roofboards as per link below…but, as you will see, the vehicle is a long way off its route! http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/3316741061/ Although you can’t see it in the above photo, stove-fitted vans (B or BY) were distinguished by a small ‘chimney’ on the roof offset to one side above the Guard’s compartment and orange panels on the top left and right hand corners as well as on the bottom half of the Guard’s door. The link below shows that more clearly. http://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/6774231718/in/set-72157624322947536 The Vans B and BY weren’t supposed to work off the SR, but a BR circular from 1958 states that they were all missing! I have seen one as far away as Mallaig! Brian Thanks Brian. That duck really should know better. The HMRS survey carried out in July 1958 shows several ex Southern vans attached to trains passing through Peterborough, so I've taken advantage of these nice Hornby offerings. I believe that they should be even filthier than I have made them though? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted February 2, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2014 Hello Bigwordsmith and Gilbert The 1958 article in the Jan-Mar 2012 HMRS Journal lists the following running numbers, to which I have added some detail (stove etc): Van B (8-wheel) S216S – Not stove-fitted S396S – Stove-fitted Van BY (4-wheel) S404S – Stove fitted PMV (4-wheel Parcels & Misc Vans) S1276S – Even planking S1343S – Even planking S1373S – 2+2 planking S1479S – 2+2 planking S1489S – 2+2 planking S1621S – Plywood sides The Vans B and BY can certainly be ‘converted’ from the Hornby models shown in Gilbert's photo. However, BYs Nos.400 and 401 were fitted with side lamp irons for working certain freights west of Exeter (and of which I have only found one photo!) so best avoid those. PMV models will be available from Bachmann soon. Note that they are not the same as CCTs (which had end doors). I gather Bachmann will make these, too. The question of ‘what exactly is a utility van’ is a vexed one with many variations. Friends and I have an explanatory article in hand, so I can’t go into much detail here. Tri-ang didn’t help matters back in the late 1950s when they produced what they called a ‘Utility Van’ but was in fact ‘an impression’ (rather than a scale model) of a Corridor Parcels & Misc Van (CorPMV)! A very small cast plate near the running number stated the load and just PMV (not CorPMV!). And just to add to the confusion, the Southern Railway called them Gangwayed Bogie Luggage Van (GBL)! Incidentally, one such latter vehicle was in Winston Churchill’s funeral train in 1965 (albeit having been painted Umber & Cream about three years earlier). I’m hopeful that Hornby will give us a newly-tooled model soon. The fact that the actual vehicle has been preserved gives me even greater hope. Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Incidentally, one such latter vehicle was in Winston Churchill’s funeral train in 1965 (albeit having been painted Umber & Cream about three years earlier). I’m hopeful that Hornby will give us a newly-tooled model soon. The fact that the actual vehicle has been preserved gives me even greater hope. Brian Isn't it preserved in America somewhere, furthermore I seem to remember there is a platform built around it? I can't see Hornby paying for their 'scanner man' to go all the way out there! I had assumed it was painted in Pullman colours specially for the funeral train, interesting it was done previous to that. Are there others of this diagram preserved? Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted February 2, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2014 Hello Tony It was in the USA with a platform around it but has been back in the UK (Swanage) for some time. It was definitely painted in those colours in July 1962 (acccording to Mike King, author of SR coaching stock books). I'll try to find out about any others preserved. Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Isn't it preserved in America somewhere, furthermore I seem to remember there is a platform built around it? I can't see Hornby paying for their 'scanner man' to go all the way out there! I had assumed it was painted in Pullman colours specially for the funeral train, interesting it was done previous to that. Are there others of this diagram preserved? Tony try here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Battle_of_Britain_class_21C151_Winston_Churchill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 2, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2014 Isn't it preserved in America somewhere, furthermore I seem to remember there is a platform built around it? I can't see Hornby paying for their 'scanner man' to go all the way out there! I had assumed it was painted in Pullman colours specially for the funeral train, interesting it was done previous to that. Are there others of this diagram preserved? Given the 100% mortality rate among humans, it was certain an ageing Churchill would die some time, and I suspect BR simply anticipated the event. In the same way, newspapers have obituaries for the elderly famous stored away ready for the event. These can be dusted off at short notice, no doubt just as Stewarts Lane did for this vehicle! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwordsmith Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Apologies for going off-topic, Gilbert please forgive, but most of the RMWeb East Coast experts congregate here, so I was wondering if any of you have any knowledge of a Class 52 Western, making it up the West Coast onto the Waverley Route? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manna Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 G'Day Gents Was it going for scrap !!! manna Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 The Vans B and BY weren’t supposed to work off the SR, but a BR circular from 1958 states that they were all missing! That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. They crop up very frequently in Dr Ian C Allen's photographs of the GE area and seem to have been very popular. The Hornby model is very nice and we replaced a kit built one on Thurston with one last year. They did seem to attract the dirt, though - perhaps none of the numbers were legible so no-one could tell that they were the vehicles Control kept asking about? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted February 3, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 3, 2014 Sorry to ask this but somewhere in this thread (about a year ago?) I got a bit of advice about replacing the Railroad valve gear (on a Railroad Mallard) and the cylinders (I think was suggested). I've spent hours going through this and tried the search facility in several ways and nowt turns up. Can anyone please remind me about what I need? Originally this Railroad version was to be EMd. No more! It will be running on OO on the BR, SR west of England main line on an enthusiasts special in 1963. However I will be making a certain amount of effort to 'detail' it to a reasonable standard. Thanks. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Given the 100% mortality rate among humans, it was certain an ageing Churchill would die some time, and I suspect BR simply anticipated the event. In the same way, newspapers have obituaries for the elderly famous stored away ready for the event. These can be dusted off at short notice, no doubt just as Stewarts Lane did for this vehicle! Ian, I remember reading something similar to this shortly after Churchill's funeral, in 1965. Though I've looked at dozens of pictures of Southern Pullman trains, I cannot find a picture of this particular umber and cream vehicle being used in general service. The 'Golden Arrow' frequently had vans of the same bogie type at either end or both ends of the train on occasions, or four-wheeled SR types or BR GUVs, though none turns up in anything other than plain green or maroon. So, it might well be concluded that it was painted in anticipation of it being used exclusively as a hearse-car for the great man. Since, I believe, Churchill played a great part in planning his own funeral, and knowing that his remains would be conveyed by train to near Blenheim, it's probably safe to assume that the authorities had already earmarked the stock, and the motive power. As to the route, I've also read that Churchill insisted that departure be from Waterloo, not (the more likely, journey-wise?) Paddington. Why? Because he thought so little of the French President. Off topic, I know, but I hope of interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) I've also read that Churchill insisted that departure be from WaterlooIn the version I've heard, Churchill had planned what was quite a circuitous route from Waterloo (Paddington having been the official choice), but told the military officer sent to seek his approval for the plans that in the event de Gaulle predeceased him, they could depart from wherever they liked. Edit - sadly perhaps not true. Brief research on the Internet produced this: At first sight, railway geography would seem to support the myth. To get from London to Bladon, Waterloo would not be your first choice of station. The obvious departure station would be Paddington, from which a train can get to central Oxfordshire very directly. However, if the organisers definitely wanted to include a journey down the Thames, the problem is that Paddington is a long way from the river: it would be a case of a road procession from St Pauls to Tower Hill, a barge from there to the West End followed by a second road procession through Mayfair and Bayswater. Waterloo is not only almost on the riverbank, but there is a fairly direct rail route from there to Reading, where the train can join the main line from Paddington and on to Oxfordshire. Moreover, for obvious reasons the train was hauled by the locomotive “Winston Churchill”. Although the railways were nationalised in 1947, in England and Wales the former railway companies had survived as largely-autonomous “Regions” within British Railways. “Winston Churchill” was built by the Southern Railway, and in 1965 (although only a few months from withdrawal) was based at Salisbury, on the Southern Region’s lines out of Waterloo. It is probably safe to say that at that time there were no loco crew at all on British Rail who were qualified both to drive “Winston Churchill” and to drive trains from Paddington to Reading; on the other hand almost all Waterloo-Reading line steam crews would have been able to handle the engine. It is also likely that special work would have been needed to make sure that a Southern Region engine would even have been able to run on the Paddington-Reading line safely. In other words, using Waterloo solved two issues: how to get the procession from boat to train easily, and also how to ensure the right engine could be used on the train with minimal special effort. I hope the above is helpful to you. On balance, I think it is highly unlikely that the use of Waterloo was purely to annoy De Gaulle – although I can imagine that when it became apparent that Waterloo would be the most straightforward terminus to use, it would have raised a few wry smiles on the planning committee!’ (From 'Beachcombing's Bizarre History' here). Edited February 3, 2014 by jwealleans Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted February 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2014 So, it might well be concluded that it was painted in anticipation of it being used exclusively as a hearse-car for the great man. Hello Tony Author Mike King in his book An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches (page 194) states that the vehicle was, indeed, painted in readiness for this sombre duty. His caption accompanying a photo of the van on page 223 states that the photo was (quote): "...taken in July 1963, during one of the van's rare appearances outside Stewarts Lane carriage sheds". Brian 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2014 Incidentally, one such latter vehicle was in Winston Churchill’s funeral train in 1965 (albeit having been painted Umber & Cream about three years earlier). I’m hopeful that Hornby will give us a newly-tooled model soon. The fact that the actual vehicle has been preserved gives me even greater hope. I fear Hornby would see such a vehicle as simply competing with the Bogie Van B - for which they seem unable to make enough copies to meet demand in some liveries - and will continue to flog (in both senses!) the elderly Tri-ang model in various versions. I do not get the impression the Churchill-liveried gangwayed-van rushed of the shelves. Apart from patriots and collectors, who would feel they had a use for one in those colours? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Popular Post great northern Posted February 7, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Popular Post Share Posted February 7, 2014 Time for some more action, I thought, so off I went. But what trauma awaited me. First the laptop, which had decided to completely mess up the Powerpoint sequence, while switched off. Usual remedy applied. Yell at it in a threatening manner, and restart. This time a message to say that Windows had "retrieved" my files. So far as I am aware, they were never lost. Anyway, I managed to get things back to normal. Trains were run, photos taken, and down I came to the PC, plug in the little thingy and load the photos.As always I instructed the programme to delete them from the camera after downloading. Then to Windows Photo Gallery, where I decided to get rid of last time's photos, so I deleted them. Off to Digital Photo Pro, but no photos to be found. Investigation revealed that I had deleted them too, inadvertently of course. And of course I had deleted them from the camera too. " Oh bother", I said. and knocked my mug of tea over, with a sweeping though unintended gesture. Having cleaned up the mess, I realised I could actually get the stuff back from the recycle bin, so here it is. I do hope you think it was worth the effort. Under Crescent Bridge comes a Clarence Yard- Niddrie Class C behind a local V2. The sky was chosen to reflect my mood, sullen and threatening, but starting to brighten up a bit. We like V2's don't we?, so let's follow this one through the station. Already the gloom is starting to lift. Into shot plods a tired looking WD, just another New England engine dragging more coal to London. But.....those of you who have been paying attention will see at once that this one is a cop! It must have been laid up in the repair shop for rather a long time, but now it is back on duty. One more shot of the V2, with signal growing out of its chimney, sorry Larry, . And very quickly down the other end to catch the WD again. This one was the result of a swop arrangement with Tim, and has been waiting for me to get a sound decoder fitted. In the end though I decided against that, as it is just a generic recording, so I wouldn't get all the proper clanking and wheezing anyway. It deserves one more shot. As the brake van clears the section, in runs a Derby lightweight DMU with a local from Skegness. Jolly bracing it will have been there today. I'm beginning to quite like the weathering on that fish van. Am I deluding myself, or just being idle again? Finally another of my occasional efforts at something artistic, unsuccessful as always. It's the zoom that has warped the building by the way. While at Digitrains the other day, I was shown a Heljan original baby Deltic. I rather like them, useless though they were. And of course with the money I had "saved" by not having a sound decoder in the WD, I could afford it, couldn't I? Temptation was courageously resisted though,..... for the time being at least. It's tea time. 32 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold fishytrains Posted February 7, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2014 Definitely worth the trauma you experienced in getting them on to RMWeb. I particularly like the last photo - very atmospheric. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 While at Digitrains the other day, I was shown a Heljan original baby Deltic. I rather like them, useless though they were. And of course with the money I had "saved" by not having a sound decoder in the WD, I could afford it, couldn't I? Temptation was courageously resisted though,..... for the time being at least. It's tea time. Somewhere I saw a photo recently of a Baby Deltic at Peterboro' on one of those Kings Cross to Peterborough trains.......... Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwales Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 While at Digitrains the other day, I was shown a Heljan original baby Deltic. I rather like them, useless though they were. And of course with the money I had "saved" by not having a sound decoder in the WD, I could afford it, couldn't I? Temptation was courageously resisted though,..... for the time being at least. It's tea time. Gilbert As others have pointed out before resistance is futile! Great photos as always Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Alister_G Posted February 7, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2014 And of course I had deleted them from the camera too. " Oh bother", I said. . I would be prepared to wager a fairly substantial sum that that isn't all you said... Lovely photos, I especially like your artistic effort, which to my mind is eminently successful. Al. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Ever since you got that bloke to weather your engines, the motive power scene has improved dramatically. Edited February 7, 2014 by coachmann 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Somewhere I saw a photo recently of a Baby Deltic at Peterboro' on one of those Kings Cross to Peterborough trains.......... Tony Rest assured, Baby Deltics turned up at Peterborough often. I have seen them myself, still got some of my old spotting books if ever I feel like searching through them. Resistance is futile... Stewart Edited February 7, 2014 by stewartingram 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted February 7, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 7, 2014 Baby Deltic assimilation; resistance is futile. However I am led to believe they could only get to Peterborough from the X. Any further and they died. Really like that dubdee; pity someone can't knock up a decent sound chip for that or any other steam loco I've heard. The diseasels are mostly OK especially Digitrains ones from SWD but I've yet to hear a decent steam file. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manna Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 G'Day Gents A good looking bunch of pictures, it was worth it in the end...............I hear that Tea, is good for weathering paper manna Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted February 7, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 7, 2014 While at Digitrains the other day, I was shown a Heljan original baby Deltic. I rather like them, useless though they were. And of course with the money I had "saved" by not having a sound decoder in the WD, I could afford it, couldn't I? Temptation was courageously resisted though,..... for the time being at least. It's tea time. Hi Gilbert Don't buy a Baby Deltic, or model one. They tend to multiply very quickly. Some scratchbuilt, some cut and shut Tri-ang 37s and one Lima 40. I don't know how the carriage heating unit got in the photo. All being scratchbuilt plus one Heljan. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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