Peterborough North

[jwealleans]

Come on, Gilbert, do keep up.

 

Time to practice your Russian.

[Mallard60022]

Sorry Jonathan, I'm a bit confused. I didn't know that any locos were wallpapered? Wouldn't the heat from the boiler ruin it? Back to researching Pullmans.

Think our 'mutual friend' TW did that last year? He gave me a load of Pics to post.

P

[Oldddudders]

Come on, Gilbert, do keep up.

 

Time to practice your Russian.

Thanks for confirming what I thought I could recall - I even got the class of loco right! Hadn't seen the ad before, just stuff in the mags at the time.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Oldddudders

[Class O]

Use Solvite no problem 

There was a Black 5 wallpapered for a TV advert in the 60s...

[New Haven Neil]

At the KWVR no less, 45212.

 

Mr Class O, suggest you click the link....

[micklner]

Yes Solvite

[coachmann]

Sorry Jonathan, I'm a bit confused. I didn't know that any locos were wallpapered? Wouldn't the heat from the boiler ruin it? 

Having seen the station pilots at Leeds and York,  Peterborough couldn't decided whether to paint theirs green or black, so they wallpapered it......

 

[jwealleans]

As long as it's not woodchip - if it is, you'll never get it off again.

[great northern]

Having seen the station pilots at Leeds and York,  Peterborough couldn't decided whether to paint theirs green or black, so they wallpapered it......

 

WEB GNR J6.jpg

Sacrilege.

 

Think our 'mutual friend' TW did that last year? He gave me a load of Pics to post.

P

I'm digging deeper Phil, and all that happens is that things get murkier and murkier. The "authorities" seem to contradict each other constantly, and some cars kept changing their identity, which makes it even worse. I'm getting there though, and will share my findings ere long.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

 

 

Having seen the station pilots at Leeds and York, Peterborough couldn't decided whether to paint theirs green or black, so they wallpapered it......

WEB GNR J6.jpg

What the ........

Just breathe in slowly, now exhale. And again.

Keep taking the tablets and everything will be alright.

  Edited February 26, 2014 by Western Sunset

[Timara]

Think our 'mutual friend' TW did that last year? He gave me a load of Pics to post.

P 

 

Sacrilege.

 

I'm digging deeper Phil, and all that happens is that things get murkier and murkier. The "authorities" seem to contradict each other constantly, and some cars kept changing their identity, which makes it even worse. I'm getting there though, and will share my findings ere long.

 

 

He's not wrong there!  All I shall say at the moment is that it is a fascinating subject and there are a few eye-openers....

 

I think "1001 things to do with a Hornby Pullman" comes pretty close.

[davidw]

He's not wrong there!  All I shall say at the moment is that it is a fascinating subject and there are a few eye-openers....

 

I think "1001 things to do with a Hornby Pullman" comes pretty close.

 

Interpretation of livery just one of them

[Clive Mortimore]

Sacrilege.

 

I'm digging deeper Phil, and all that happens is that things get murkier and murkier. The "authorities" seem to contradict each other constantly, and some cars kept changing their identity, which makes it even worse. I'm getting there though, and will share my findings ere long.

Hi Gilbert

 

Had you modelled a few years later, when the Deltics roared up and down the east coast, your Pullman problem would have been sorted by that nice Mr Bachmann with those lovely Mk1 Pullmans.

 

I am looking forward to your findings as my knowledge of pre Mk1 Pullmans on the ECML is very limited.

[7APT7]

Great photos, nice wall paper to... lol

 

Jamie

[gc8andy]

My father worked for the film company that made that commercial. Five Cities Films of Bradford.

[great northern]

The success of my cassette storage system has freed up room in the fiddle yard, and allows me to consider including the Yorkshire Pullman in my roster. Till now I have run the Tees -Tyne Pullman stock as the Yorkshire, though it was as I well knew completely wrong - three cars short for a start, so to do it correctly would remove one of the, thankfully few, things about this layout that bug me.

 

As usual though, there were problems to consider. I would need 11 more Pullman cars. Where would they come from, and what were the cost implications?  The ready to run contenders are the current Hornby range, and the two cars available in the Railroad range. Those two, a Parlour First and a Brake, are in fact the "correct" cars for the ECML, but represent only part of the range of steel sided cars built for the LNER in and after 1928. Parlour Second, and Kitchen First and Second are not covered, and would have to be obtained by usiing the Hornby cars as donors for etched sides, replacing the incorrect bogies, and lowering the ride height. All of that involves expense.

 

I can't use the Bachmann MK1 cars, which came in after my period, as by the way did the Master Cutler. This led me to consider how many of the present Hornby cars I could incorporate into my rakes. They aren't cheap at nearly £50 rrp each these days, but still much cheaper than the conversion option. There are bargains to be had too on the current range. So, in 1958, what would be the proportion of steel sided to wooden sided cars in the three trains, Queen of Scots, Yorkshire Pullman and Tees -Tyne Pulman? I've always understood that the wooden sided cars now available in the main Hornby range were few and far between. That's very inconvenient for me from the cost point of view, so I decided to do some research.

 

Having acquired Pullman Profiles Nos 2 and 3 by Antony M Ford, which I can throughly recommend, things began to look less black and white. Post War, BR(E) had a stock of 52 cars, 37 of which were in daily use, the other 15 being spare. How many steel sided cars were there? There are by the way considerable differences between the steel and wooden cars, one cannot masquerade as the other. Steel sided cars were built for the LNER in 1928 specifically for the then new Queen of Scots. There were four Parlour First, four Kitchen First, four Brake thirds, four Parlour Thirds and six Kitchen Thirds. Also in 1928, three Parlour Firsts and four Kitchen Firsts were built for the GWR, but soon moved to the LNER, where they remained. In 1931, another four steel sided cars were built for the Southern Railway. Cars 81 and 82 were third Kitchens, and Cars 83 and 84 were third Parlours. However, those cars were relatively quickly transferred to the LNER, where they stayed. Thus the LNER had a total of 33 steel sided cars, which were inherited by BR.

 

That means that if they were all in use only four wooden cars would be needed to make up to 37. It isn't that simple though. Of the six steel sided Parlour Seconds, only two were included in the official formations, so four of those were always spare. Then one has to consider that there were only four steel sided brakes, but the daily need was for eight, two each in the Tees- Tyne and Yorkshire, and four for the Queen of Scots, which required two rakes. At least 50% of the brakes therefore must have been wooden sided cars. But of course the steel cars would never have all been in use - when has 100% availability ever been achieved? If one postulates 80% availabilty, which I strongly suspect is stilll too high ( can Stationmaster and Olddudders help), that means only 25 steel sided at any given time, which in turn means by logical progression that on a daily basis 12 wooden cars were in use, and that is near enough one third of the total. And, if one takes the proportion of total availability, 33 steel to 19 wooden, one gets roughly the same answer. That to me means that far more current Hornby cars may be suitable than seems likely at first glance. I'll deal with the word in italics later, when I shall also deal with the question of how this mathematical theory fits in with fact as recorded in print and on film.

[Oldddudders]

Flattered to be asked - but probably not much factual help. If I have inferred correctly, these cars came from a number of batches, with the likelihood that spares were more numerous in type. No doubt Pullman developed the product as they went along, just like everyone else - so getting the rights parts for each vehicle might be a pain for the maintenance staff. Then there is the issue that these are Pullmans - with rather more fixtures and fittings above the solebar than more lowly vehicles, all of which would be required to be in working order every trip. In short, while I cannot say that 80% is right or wrong, small fleets generally have worse availability than large ones, performance and design being equal.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Oldddudders

[Mallard60022]

Gilbert, I remember Penguin of Doom doing some Pullman alterations. Would any of the Comet ones be of use or are they too modern?

Bit of a faff but sides on Hornby old Pullman bodies might help (did TW do that once as well?)?

That would then only need the sides detailing up & painting and some cosmetic paintwork elsewhere;(I say only, but to get [say] two or three otherwise unobtainable RTR cars it could be worthwhile?)

P

Edited February 27, 2014 by Mallard60022

[davidw]

I would agree with Phil - on the Hornby 1928 pullmans - the "penguin of Doom" -did a terrific job. Unfortunately the cost of doing this with a Rathbone or other paint professional paint job does add ££'s. 

 

I' in a similar qua-dry with Mk1 Pullmans and 1928 or other brakes

[Timara]

David/Phil,

 

That is certainly the case for the 1928 kitchen cars, both first and second class.  However, I'm working on the aluminium-clad examples for starters.  There are at least two that will be what I can call "fun" projects.  One is under way, but a second one is still under discussion, though I'll leave those to break cover when they're both finalised and indeed finished.

 

I too remember Sean's superb work on his little rake of 1928 cars, which has been a bookmarked topic since this project came into being.

 

Cheers,

[davidw]

David/Phil,

 

That is certainly the case for the 1928 kitchen cars, both first and second class.  However, I'm working on the aluminium-clad examples for starters.  There are at least two that will be what I can call "fun" projects.  One is under way, but a second one is still under discussion, though I'll leave those to break cover when they're both finalised and indeed finished.

 

I too remember Sean's superb work on his little rake of 1928 cars, which has been a bookmarked topic since this project came into being.

 

Cheers,

 

Now you've intrigued me. 

[The Stationmaster]

Having acquired Pullman Profiles Nos 2 and 3 by Antony M Ford, which I can throughly recommend, things began to look less black and white. Post War, BR(E) had a stock of 52 cars, 37 of which were in daily use, the other 15 being spare. How many steel sided cars were there? There are by the way considerable differences between the steel and wooden cars, one cannot masquerade as the other. Steel sided cars were built for the LNER in 1928 specifically for the then new Queen of Scots. There were four Parlour First, four Kitchen First, four Brake thirds, four Parlour Thirds and six Kitchen Thirds. Also in 1928, three Parlour Firsts and four Kitchen Firsts were built for the GWR, but soon moved to the LNER, where they remained. In 1931, another four steel sided cars were built for the Southern Railway. Cars 81 and 82 were third Kitchens, and Cars 83 and 84 were third Parlours. However, those cars were relatively quickly transferred to the LNER, where they stayed. Thus the LNER had a total of 33 steel sided cars, which were inherited by BR.

 

That means that if they were all in use only four wooden cars would be needed to make up to 37. It isn't that simple though. Of the six steel sided Parlour Seconds, only two were included in the official formations, so four of those were always spare. Then one has to consider that there were only four steel sided brakes, but the daily need was for eight, two each in the Tees- Tyne and Yorkshire, and four for the Queen of Scots, which required two rakes. At least 50% of the brakes therefore must have been wooden sided cars. But of course the steel cars would never have all been in use - when has 100% availability ever been achieved? If one postulates 80% availabilty, which I strongly suspect is stilll too high ( can Stationmaster and Olddudders help), that means only 25 steel sided at any given time, which in turn means by logical progression that on a daily basis 12 wooden cars were in use, and that is near enough one third of the total. And, if one takes the proportion of total availability, 33 steel to 19 wooden, one gets roughly the same answer. That to me means that far more current Hornby cars may be suitable than seems likely at first glance. I'll deal with the word in italics later, when I shall also deal with the question of how this mathematical theory fits in with fact as recorded in print and on film.

Some interesting questions in there.  First of all i would expect that on a diagrammed basis more 2nds would stand spare as they were likely to be the most called-upon vehicles for strengthening if the usual demands for extra vehicles extended in the same way to the Pullmans.  But we hit another situation with Pullman cars in addition to those mentioned by Ian and that is the question of kitchen cleaning - my involvement with carriage cleaning came in the late 1970s and the first half of the '80s and no doubt hygiene standards had changed by then but when we pulled a vehicle with a food prep area/kitchen for a monthly heavy clean it was out of use for several days in order to allow plainly of time to rinse off the caustic soda which was used to clean parts of the kitchen kit  - so I suspect there must have been spare kitchen cars on a different ratio from the other vehicles giving a lower overall availability for them.

 

So your 80% is going to be made up from several competing elements - greater level of spares for some types of car reducing their paper availability, heavier cleaning requirement for some types reducing their actual availability, and to balance these some potentially better availability of the other simpler vehicles driven by more intensive use of that part of the fleet.  We then need to consider daily variations in the formation - I see that in the Winter of 1957/58 the Tees Tyne varied on Fridays with an FX 1st Parlour Car replaced by an FO 2nd Kitchen Car; I wonder what the Kitchen car did for the rest of the week, cleaning cover?

 

So through this meandering tale I'm starting to reach a conclusion (aide by a little bit of 'net delving which happened to show that timber sided brakes were in use on the Tees-Tyne Pullman for at least part of the 1950s (regrettably the right part is not covered in the article, linked below) and that is that I would expect 80% availability could well have been achieved on certain days of the week but not necessarily everyday and that there were undoubtedly spare cars available even if officially on maintenance.  Albeit  some good number of years later we were working on far higher availability levels than 80% for loco hauled Mk1 coaches although we did have several 'excursion sets' up our sleeves and available for 'robbery' should the need arise  Incidentally apologies if the 'net links below are treading old ground for you.

 

'net links consulted -

Including a 1957/58 winter formation -

http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3708

 

 

About the Tees-Tyne Pullman and K type cars -

http://www.semgonline.com/coach/coupe/coupe_se04.pdf

[Rail-Online]

Gilbert,

 

Here is another original photo to replicate. The Yorkshire Pullman was taken in June 1961 so not much use for the Pullman details I am afraid. Interesting all that parcels activity but not a soul in sight - much more realistic than too many plastic figures.  Finally it is the best shot I have of that repeater that caused so much discussion many pages ago in this thread. Probably enough detail to model it now. If you need a high resolution scan let me know, I have to reduce it down to less than 1mB for this site.

 

Tony

 

p.s. The neg and photo is Copyright Rail-Online, please can everyone respect this and not copy it.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Rail-Online

[Mallard60022]

Ten downloads already.......well I don't blame them as it is a great shot but manners folks, manners.

P

[Andy Y]

Ten downloads already.......well I don't blame them as it is a great shot but manners folks, manners.

P

 

Don't worry Phil as that just means that people have clicked on it to see the full-sized version (inc. me).