Peterborough North

[bigwordsmith]

Seriously Gilbert does have a point though -

 

I've got the wrong side of 60 locos - mostly they live in their boxes, but even when Waverley is at full chat I'll not need more than 30 to run it.

 

So how do you give the others an airing and keep their legs supple?

 

I suppose if I had front couplings on them I could run them round the layout in groups of half a dozen with a diesel at the sharp end as scrapyard specials, but then they'd all need to be filthy - hardly in Haymarket condition which is how I'd rather run them!

[davidw]

Personally I find that the Hornby locos are the  ones that need to be run more regularly than Bachmann

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

 

'bigwordsmith' raises an interesting point -Light Engine movements (L/E). The steam age railway was not efficient. There were many many instances of engines retained for specific services or routes. These would normally be very inefficiently diagrammed. For example a 0-6-0 with light axle loading for working a specific freight branch would be retained (together with a spare!), to work the 3 times weekly freight service on that branch. It would be worked L/E out to work the branch from its 'home' depot (tiny outstations sheds had closed by the 1950s). If you look at working timetables these are often shown sometimes as L/E, sometimes as 'Loco & brake', but these are just the tip of the iceberg, there being many more movements only worked as required.  I have no knowledge of PN in 1957 but there must have been movements of locos from New England to March and other depots or to its outstations to exchange engines due to washout, exams or heavier repairs. To find how many relies on detailed spotters logs from the period, and then you need to know which L/E movement was just from New England to the south bay of PN to await a southbound train, verses those heading further south. Of course these movements would also be timed to suit the requirements of the time, if the shed forman had a loco to exchange with one at March and it was low priority I am sure he would wait until he had a spare crew or a diagram that only used half a day, therefore this could be 3am in the morning or 8pm at night - cetainly not when we were spotting!

 

To demonstrate the point I have lots of pics at St Neots. Most of these are expresses thundering through, less are freights (usually partially fitted rather than mineral), but some are a simple L/E movement which today has no 'logic'.  Furthermore we must also remember that film was expensive in the 1950s. The decision to use an exposure on a reel of 12 or 24 would be a conscious decision and therefore for most photographers the emphasis would be on the glamorous or the highly unusual, rather than the mundane. Negs of freight trains are greatly outnumbered by expresses, and even those that were taken of freights would more likely to be a new 9F, or a named B1 than the humble J6 or filthy WD.   

 

I would say to Gilbert and others in a similar position, add in some L/E movements!

 

Thoughts everyone?

 

Tony

[bigwordsmith]

Tony's point is also very cogent 

 

I can;t remember which one it was but I recently watched a Youtube film of the ECML somewhere north of Hatfield with many named trains thundering past and an A3 whizzed pas light engine "no doubt returning to its home depot after safely delivering a London Express" intoned the announcer.

 

If I could remember the name/number I'm sure someone could suggest where the from and to were but it does mitigate in favour of LE movements. In the same video I also saw a 9f and WD running LE

[davidw]

Tony's point is also very cogent 

 

I can;t remember which one it was but I recently watched a Youtube film of the ECML somewhere north of Hatfield with many named trains thundering past and an A3 whizzed pas light engine "no doubt returning to its home depot after safely delivering a London Express" intoned the announcer.

 

If I could remember the name/number I'm sure someone could suggest where the from and to were but it does mitigate in favour of LE movements. In the same video I also saw a 9f and WD running LE

It would be interesting if you could provide a link or title for that 

[great northern]

Shock indeed.... a hint at reducing the number of A4's

Oh no David, I didn't say that, did I?   Some things are sacrosanct.

[great northern]

Hi,

 

'bigwordsmith' raises an interesting point -Light Engine movements (L/E). The steam age railway was not efficient. There were many many instances of engines retained for specific services or routes. These would normally be very inefficiently diagrammed. For example a 0-6-0 with light axle loading for working a specific freight branch would be retained (together with a spare!), to work the 3 times weekly freight service on that branch. It would be worked L/E out to work the branch from its 'home' depot (tiny outstations sheds had closed by the 1950s). If you look at working timetables these are often shown sometimes as L/E, sometimes as 'Loco & brake', but these are just the tip of the iceberg, there being many more movements only worked as required.  I have no knowledge of PN in 1957 but there must have been movements of locos from New England to March and other depots or to its outstations to exchange engines due to washout, exams or heavier repairs. To find how many relies on detailed spotters logs from the period, and then you need to know which L/E movement was just from New England to the south bay of PN to await a southbound train, verses those heading further south. Of course these movements would also be timed to suit the requirements of the time, if the shed forman had a loco to exchange with one at March and it was low priority I am sure he would wait until he had a spare crew or a diagram that only used half a day, therefore this could be 3am in the morning or 8pm at night - cetainly not when we were spotting!

 

To demonstrate the point I have lots of pics at St Neots. Most of these are expresses thundering through, less are freights (usually partially fitted rather than mineral), but some are a simple L/E movement which today has no 'logic'.  Furthermore we must also remember that film was expensive in the 1950s. The decision to use an exposure on a reel of 12 or 24 would be a conscious decision and therefore for most photographers the emphasis would be on the glamorous or the highly unusual, rather than the mundane. Negs of freight trains are greatly outnumbered by expresses, and even those that were taken of freights would more likely to be a new 9F, or a named B1 than the humble J6 or filthy WD.   

 

I would say to Gilbert and others in a similar position, add in some L/E movements!

 

Thoughts everyone?

 

Tony

I have included all the light engine movements noted on the WTT Tony, but I'm sure there must have been more, though some very interesting ones are sadly just off scene - those between Peterbough East and Spital Bridge shed. I could have a lot more B17s if I could include those...... but I'm supposed to be cutting down, aren't I? 

 

I do have the ones which took the Ramsey branch loco down to Holme, and back after concluding its duties, and a few between East and North are also run, but, yes I'm sure there were more. There was I know a quite regular L/E movement of a Grantham Pacific all the way up to KX, as the loco was required for a Down express, and the Up turn which should have got it there was "run as required". It often wasn't. apparently. There were quite a few L/E movements between New England and Grantham too I believe. Nowhere near so much "efficiency" back then, but they could whistle up strengthening coaches if a train was packed, which is more than is possible now, allegedly.

[stewartingram]

I'll hang on a moment before dating this, bear with me.
Peterborough had an allocation of those odd 350hp shunters - class 10 were they? When I was knee-high to a grasshopper, my grandad used to stop off at various places (Abbotts Ripton was the 1st one - remember the branch there that crossed the road and went into the back of Alconbury airbase?). One of our other places, on the way to Peterborough from Mepal, was Holme. There was still a station then, not sure if it was open or closed though. Gates on the crossing, worked by a wheel from the old signalbox. And the footbridge. Ah, the footbridge, climbed it many times, seeing a goods waiting on the Down Slow near Conington. Now my point is, this was more often than not one of these class 10s, on a longish load of minerals, probably emptied of loco ash at Conington I would think? When it got the road, it ground its way slowly on the Down road towards Peterborough. Heaven knows how long that would have taken! Would that have been within your time frame?
Date wise, we moved from Mepal to Cambridge in 1959. Didn't visit Peterborough so often, nor take quite the same route, but we still had the Austin 7 Ruby (CPW835) for a little while, I definitely remember that. So it is  not impossible that we stopped off there after '59, but less likely than before then I would think. When did Holme close, be demolished, no footbridge, Ramsey North branch get lifted etc?
It would make an interesting variation for you if in date....
 
Stewart

Edited November 4, 2014 by stewartingram

[manna]

G'Day Gents

 

Holme closed in 1959, but the branch I think closed in 70/71, I can remember there was a ex GN somersault, that you could see from the mainline. That may have still been there in 73/74

 

As for LE workings, there was a lot more LE works than you may realize, almost every footplate diagram somewhere includes a bit of LE work, one I worked was from KX passenger loco, to Dagenham ! to pick up a FORD car train, bound for Wakefield,  but many were mundane, Hertford North to Hitchin to pick up your next working, ( Hitchin-Peterborough, parcels) or after a Moorgate - Hertford North, LE to Bounds Green to work ECS to Kings Cross.

 

manna

[great northern]

I'll hang on a moment before dating this, bear with me.

Peterborough had an allocation of those odd 350hp shunters - class 10 were they? When I was knee-high to a grasshopper, my grandad used to stop off at various places (Abbotts Ripton was the 1st one - remember the branch there that crossed the road and went into the back of Alconbury airbase?). One of our other places, on the way to Peterborough from Mepal, was Holme. There was still a station then, not sure if it was open or closed though. Gates on the crossing, worked by a wheel from the old signalbox. And the footbridge. Ah, the footbridge, climbed it many times, seeing a goods waiting on the Down Slow near Conington. Now my point is, this was more often than not one of these class 10s, on a longish load of minerals, probably emptied of loco ash at Conington I would think? When it got the road, it ground its way slowly on the Down road towards Peterborough. Heaven knows how long that would have taken! Would that have been within your time frame?

Date wise, we moved from Mepal to Cambridge in 1959. Didn't visit Peterborough so often, nor take quite the same route, but we still had the Austin 7 Ruby (CPW835) for a little while, I definitely remember that. So it is  not impossible that we stopped off there after '59, but less likely than before then I would think. When did Holme close, be demolished, no footbridge, Ramsey North branch get lifted etc?

It would make an interesting variation for you if in date....

 

Stewart

I'll do some more research Stewart, but this is what comes to mind from memory and readily available sources. Holme station closed to passengers in April 1959, the Ramsey branch, its main reason for existing, having closed to passengers as far back as 1947. The branch remained open for freight though until 1973, somwhat remarkably. I don't know when the station buildings went - those close by, Yaxley&Farcet and Abbots Ripton , were at least partially demolished with indecent haste - but the existence of freight traffic may have kept Holme more or less intact I would surmise. I think the footbridge served as a public bridge as well, so that may also have remained in use for some time.

 

Those 350hp diesel shunters arrived in 1956 or 1957, but seem to have been largely confined to New England yards. I have only two photos of any of them at North, one is dated 1965, and the other is of one in a line of light engines waiting for a path into New England. That one had come in from the South, but could have been shunting at East or at Fletton I suppose. I've often wondered why they weren't used as station pilots, particularly after the Stamford branch closed, but the C12s were replaced first by N5s, and then by otherwise redundant N2s, presumably to work out their mileage.

 

I have no record of the working you saw in my WTT, which is for 1957, Conington is a good possibilty though, as you could surely not have let one of these loose for a long distance on the two track section of the main line. I would think that New England would have used one of its many J6's or even a WD for a duty like that, which would put the use of a diesel shunter after 1964/5. Having said that, there would have been plenty of more suitable diesels, so this is rather a mystery really.

 

One will shortly be arriving back on the layout, having been sidelined for some time by mechanical failure. Tim has managed to cure it though, so I shall to find something for it to do.

[New Haven Neil]

Mm, class 10's - Blackstone engine variant, sometimes quoted as 400hp rather than 350. I like odd ball locos!  Still, can't have one replacing the N5, please Gilbert!

[robrailltd]

it should be pointed out that even on the  modern railways there are many pointless L/E on ecs unit moves out there.

[stewartingram]

I'll do some more research Stewart, but this is what comes to mind from memory and readily available sources. Holme station closed to passengers in April 1959, the Ramsey branch, its main reason for existing, having closed to passengers as far back as 1947. The branch remained open for freight though until 1973, somwhat remarkably. I don't know when the station buildings went - those close by, Yaxley&Farcet and Abbots Ripton , were at least partially demolished with indecent haste - but the existence of freight traffic may have kept Holme more or less intact I would surmise. I think the footbridge served as a public bridge as well, so that may also have remained in use for some time.

 

Those 350hp diesel shunters arrived in 1956 or 1957, but seem to have been largely confined to New England yards. I have only two photos of any of them at North, one is dated 1965, and the other is of one in a line of light engines waiting for a path into New England. That one had come in from the South, but could have been shunting at East or at Fletton I suppose. I've often wondered why they weren't used as station pilots, particularly after the Stamford branch closed, but the C12s were replaced first by N5s, and then by otherwise redundant N2s, presumably to work out their mileage.

 

I have no record of the working you saw in my WTT, which is for 1957, Conington is a good possibilty though, as you could surely not have let one of these loose for a long distance on the two track section of the main line. I would think that New England would have used one of its many J6's or even a WD for a duty like that, which would put the use of a diesel shunter after 1964/5. Having said that, there would have been plenty of more suitable diesels, so this is rather a mystery really.

 

One will shortly be arriving back on the layout, having been sidelined for some time by mechanical failure. Tim has managed to cure it though, so I shall to find something for it to do.

Definitely not as late as 1964/5 for what I am quoting, for the following reasons:

 

We changed our car in '61, and I'll 100% guarantee we were in it when I saw these trains a number of times. (unconnected reasons to this thread confirm this).

Steam was predominant, diesels were rare, it was exciting to see one.

The class 10s were plain black livery.

I did climb Holme bridge. I suspect that a number of developments happenned together; replacement of the old signal box,probably with the brick version that still stands, replacement of gates with barriers, demolition of station buildings.

 

(I'm beginning to think I've stumbled across something no-one else saw or took notice of?). I might (when I get chance to look) find some numbers & dates in an old spotting notebook.

 

Stewart

 

I never recal seeing any train on the Ramsey North branch - best I did was a bogie bolster parked near the l/c at Ramsey St.Marys!

[The Stationmaster]

There was a very logical reason for not using 350 diesels as passenger station pilots - they couldn't steam heat stock and in many places the pilot would be used to at least get a bit of warming through coaches that were going to be attached to through trains or to warm vehicles that were going to be used for a departure.

[great northern]

Mm, class 10's - Blackstone engine variant, sometimes quoted as 400hp rather than 350. I like odd ball locos!  Still, can't have one replacing the N5, please Gilbert!

No need to worry - see Post 6439 by Mike. Not that I would have considered it anyway.

[great northern]

There was a very logical reason for not using 350 diesels as passenger station pilots - they couldn't steam heat stock and in many places the pilot would be used to at least get a bit of warming through coaches that were going to be attached to through trains or to warm vehicles that were going to be used for a departure.

Thanks Mike, that never occurred to me. Another problem solved!

[great northern]

Definitely not as late as 1964/5 for what I am quoting, for the following reasons:

 

We changed our car in '61, and I'll 100% guarantee we were in it when I saw these trains a number of times. (unconnected reasons to this thread confirm this).

Steam was predominant, diesels were rare, it was exciting to see one.

The class 10s were plain black livery.

I did climb Holme bridge. I suspect that a number of developments happenned together; replacement of the old signal box,probably with the brick version that still stands, replacement of gates with barriers, demolition of station buildings.

 

(I'm beginning to think I've stumbled across something no-one else saw or took notice of?). I might (when I get chance to look) find some numbers & dates in an old spotting notebook.

 

Stewart

 

I never recal seeing any train on the Ramsey North branch - best I did was a bogie bolster parked near the l/c at Ramsey St.Marys!

Right, that narrows things down. These locos were delivered new to New England in March/April 1958, so it wouldn't be before that. Having dredged my memory, I've found this image, taken by Tim's Dad on 23rd May 1958, and reproduced with his permission. According to the records I've searched, these would have been green from new though, as one would expect with the late crest and "D" rather than "1" prefix.

Can anyone confirm the livery from this please?

 

I reckon you are right Stewart, you saw a working that no-one else seems to have recorded. I'm fascinated as to why a loco limited to 15mph would be rostered to a working that ran for several miles on a double track section of the ECML though, it must have held up everything behind it surely?

[Mallard60022]

Argghhhhhh.....I'm not really seeing that am I?

P

[stewartingram]

Right, that narrows things down. These locos were delivered new to New England in March/April 1958, so it wouldn't be before that. Having dredged my memory, I've found this image, taken by Tim's Dad on 23rd May 1958, and reproduced with his permission. According to the records I've searched, these would have been green from new though, as one would expect with the late crest and "D" rather than "1" prefix.

D3487 Peterborough 23-5-58 127-104.jpg

Can anyone confirm the livery from this please?

 

I reckon you are right Stewart, you saw a working that no-one else seems to have recorded. I'm fascinated as to why a loco limited to 15mph would be rostered to a working that ran for several miles on a double track section of the ECML though, it must have held up everything behind it surely?

OK I stand corrected on the green livery rather than black! (but it was a dark green lol). That photo looks right to me - small D, no wasp stripes (they wrapped around the front didn't they? This was the era of the old Kitmaster shunter, and I remember debating whether to do it black or green! (Actually did both in the end).

Must make time to search the spotting books - and I'm in the middle of assembling a load of Sprat & Winkles....

 

Stewart

[The Stationmaster]

Right, that narrows things down. These locos were delivered new to New England in March/April 1958, so it wouldn't be before that. Having dredged my memory, I've found this image, taken by Tim's Dad on 23rd May 1958, and reproduced with his permission. According to the records I've searched, these would have been green from new though, as one would expect with the late crest and "D" rather than "1" prefix.

D3487 Peterborough 23-5-58 127-104.jpg

Can anyone confirm the livery from this please?

 

I reckon you are right Stewart, you saw a working that no-one else seems to have recorded. I'm fascinated as to why a loco limited to 15mph would be rostered to a working that ran for several miles on a double track section of the ECML though, it must have held up everything behind it surely?

Almost certainly green with the late crest from new.

 

The 350s which became Class 08 were a right nuisance out on running lines due to their low speed, even the 20 mph version, hence they were not often found on freight trip working, especially while lots of superannuated old, but faster(!), steam engines still lurked around.   And in any case there was plenty of yard work for the diesels where they could readily be single manned whereas under the 1957 Manning Agreement most freight trip engines still had to be double manned whatever sort of loco was used on them.

 

Nice rugged things, great for shunting and nice and powerful with a good brake, but not a very pleasant ride once they got up speed - oh and the cabs could get draughty, and sometimes let in water when passing through carriage washing machines.

[stewartingram]

I wish I'd never mentioned this - but it is bugging me now.

Thanks to my new partially completed books database, I was able to find some spotting books pretty quick. Slightly too late, and agreeing with my earlier comments about moving, less "extended" spotting etc at Holme, I've extracted some information as below. Please excuse the somewhat pedantic notes; but it all goes to show the picture.

Around this time, I was keeping almost a daily diary of my spotting, in notebook form. I usually showed basic info, eg D999 (F) (DS) indicated a freight on the down slow. Sometimes the F would carry a suffix number, I counted the wagons! Occasionally I indicated the existence of coupling code (eg Blue Star on a 31), or a yellow panel or wasp stripes.

Prior to the use of proper notebooks, I had used Ian Allan tabular spotting notebooks, I believe I may still have a couple but no idea where (yet). These would probably be more relevant to Holme.

 

Anyway the extracts, followed by a few comments.

12/6/62: D3448 WASP (F1). No direction though. I wonder if this was a l/e+brake?

10/9/62: D3486. No furher details; suggests to me it may have been parked in a siding at the station. Possibly for Ramsey use, or a demolition use?

(this is a definite sighting of interest) 30/4/62: D3440 WASP (F) (DS).

We went to Peterboro, and I spent some time spotting on North station. On the return, we went over the crossing at Holme, where I noted the following:

D3440. No load or direction details infers another parked loco, as earlier?

 

The other interesting thing is, of all my visits to Peterborough North, I have NO records of these shunters! Nor, as we've already inferred, at any other locations including St.Neots, Sandy, Offord, Abbotts Ripton,Wood Walton, etc. So the only possible use I can see is (1)Conington ash (which I think is most likely), and Ramsey North (but very infrequent traffic). I do have records of 2 or 3 Ivatt 2-6-0 (43xxx) recorded in the same manner at Holme (ie parked?) which I think would be more likely for Ramsey though.

 

The plot thickens......can't we talk about new Oxfordrail releases instead?

 

Stewart

Edited November 5, 2014 by stewartingram

[Donington Road]

I wish I'd never mentioned this - but it is bugging me now.

Thanks to my new partially completed books database, I was able to find some spotting books pretty quick. Slightly too late, and agreeing with my earlier comments about moving, less "extended" spotting etc at Holme, I've extracted some information as below. Please excuse the somewhat pedantic notes; but it all goes to show the picture.

Around this time, I was keeping almost a daily diary of my spotting, in notebook form. I usually showed basic info, eg D999 (F) (DS) indicated a freight on the down slow. Sometimes the F would carry a suffix number, I counted the wagons! Occasionally I indicated the existence of coupling code (eg Blue Star on a 31), or a yellow panel or wasp stripes.

Prior to the use of proper notebooks, I had used Ian Allan tabular spotting notebooks, I believe I may still have a couple but no idea where (yet). These would probably be more relevant to Holme.

 

Anyway the extracts, followed by a few comments.

12/6/62: D3448 WASP (F1). No direction though. I wonder if this was a l/e+brake?

10/9/62: D3486. No furher details; suggests to me it may have been parked in a siding at the station. Possibly for Ramsey use, or a demolition use?

(this is a definite sighting of interest) 30/4/62: D3440 WASP (F) (DS).

We went to Peterboro, and I spent some time spotting on North station. On the return, we went over the crossing at Holme, where I noted the following:

D3440. No load or direction details infers another parked loco, as earlier?

 

The other interesting thing is, of all my visits to Peterborough North, I have NO records of these shunters! Nor, as we've already inferred, at any other locations including St.Neots, Sandy, Offord, Abbotts Ripton,Wood Walton, etc. So the only possible use I can see is (1)Conington ash (which I think is most likely), and Ramsey North (but very infrequent traffic). I do have records of 2 or 3 Ivatt 2-6-0 (43xxx) recorded in the same manner at Holme (ie parked?) which I think would be more likely for Ramsey though.

 

The plot thickens......can't we talk about new Oxfordrail releases instead?

 

Stewart

 

I would think the shunters were working the Ramsey branch much like they did on the M&GN out of Spalding.  There was no passenger services then (M&GN) and life was at a leisurely pace.

[Richard E]

A little bit of research has shown that the goods yard at Holme (where I partake in a quiz at the Admiral Wells pub every Tuesday evening within sight of the gate box) closed, so it is claimed, to all traffic on 31st October 1970. The freight services to Ramsey ceased in December 1973 (according to several sources including Ely model railway club) although it is claimed elsewhere that it was 1971 according to a photo caption (http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/r/ramsey_north/) which shows a diesel shunter in charge of a train of box vans allegedly at Ramsey North. That same photograph appears on another website that claims closure was in 1972! It would make sense to me that Holme goods yard would have survived, even if only as a refuge, until the Ramsey North traffic ceased. Incidentally the pub, and the former station, now lie 6' below sea level according to local claims. There are some old photographs of the station and it's staff in years gone by that now grace the pub walls.

 

There are suggestions that the current gate box at Holme (now disused), which is built on top of a relay room (apparently) was built in about 1975.

 

Whilst I can find no proof there is a suggestion that the station building might have lasted that long although I can say for certain they were still there in 1962 thanks to a wedding photographer in Peterborough who has some railway pictures on line as well.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Richard E

[Clive Mortimore]

Right, that narrows things down. These locos were delivered new to New England in March/April 1958, so it wouldn't be before that. Having dredged my memory, I've found this image, taken by Tim's Dad on 23rd May 1958, and reproduced with his permission. According to the records I've searched, these would have been green from new though, as one would expect with the late crest and "D" rather than "1" prefix.

D3487 Peterborough 23-5-58 127-104.jpg

Can anyone confirm the livery from this please?

 

I reckon you are right Stewart, you saw a working that no-one else seems to have recorded. I'm fascinated as to why a loco limited to 15mph would be rostered to a working that ran for several miles on a double track section of the ECML though, it must have held up everything behind it surely?

Hi Gilbert

 

D3487 is a Darlington built engine, she is green. She would have had a polished wooden surround to her door. The radiator would be black and the coupling rods shinny metal. Darlington seemed to have its own standard livery for shunters. Another Darlington, Stratford and Doncaster variation on the livery was placing the BR emblem on the engine room doors. Lesser works put them on the battery boxes.

[31A]

A bit anecdotal from the dim & distant recesses of my memory, but I've got a recollection of seeing 08s trundling along light on the Biggleswade / Sandy stretch delivering drinking water to signalboxes and level crossings with no water supply.  This would be late '60s-early '70s and I presume using a Hitchin based loco but the same sort have thing might have happened from the Peterborough end as well.  In those days what are now the Slow lines were designated Goods lines, and there were far fewer stopping passenger trains than we're used to these days, so perhaps they didn't cause as much disruption as might be expected, on the 4-track sections at least.  Anyway, another reason for a light engine to run.